Not that I care what tracks get made, but I have read that the reason Rockingham isn't released is because of tire physics with the cars? Is that right? I don't understand this reasoning as the cars work pretty good on the tracks we have already. I dunno. Never really cared for "real" cars and tracks. I've always liked the made up ones and think that the whole Game should be....made up. Not to sound like I'm whining for S3, cause I'm not, How long does it take to make a track? uh... OK An average three mile long track with all the trees, stands, tires and whatnot? When designing a track, what is used to determine curve radius and track width? Also, is the track designed at 1:1 scale or something else? When I design...an elevator panel, sometimes it can take a couple of days and at usually 1/4 scale so the design fits on tabloid paper for approval submital. There's all sorts of things that goes into that instead of just making a flat piece of metal with buttons and numbers. So I can appreciate the time that it would take to make a Fern Club track.
Also, are CAD programs used? Or is it made with customized software?
But back to Rockingham and incompatibility.
Is it a case that just cause a car works well on one set of tracks, it's flaws are noticed on another one?
Why would that be an issue though? If anyone answers this, please be aware that I'm functionally computer illiterate - so no big words, OK?

If I just HAVE to whine and complain about LFS development, then it's with the A.I. Damn. They're almost as stupid as the real life drivers I have to put up with. LOL I wish I could mod all their cars to look like the Little yellow school buses that they should be in..

Quote from Racer Y :

Not to sound like I'm whining for S3, cause I'm not, How long does it take to make a track? uh... OK An average three mile long track with all the trees, stands, tires and whatnot? When designing a track, what is used to determine curve radius and track width? Also, is the track designed at 1:1 scale or something else?

It was laser scanned, so it should be quite an accurate representation of the real circuit.

one detailed average 3 mils track will take 6~8 month at least if there is only one man working on his free time ( this is what I think about eric situation ), there is no miracles about this if the devs won't increase their man powers they will take years to make 3/4 tracks/cars.

I think the actual LFS physics is good enough to create an average general profil about a classe of car ( fwd/rwd.... ), but why scawen went into the new physics development ? I think it's because when you add the real cars data into the actual engine it will act weird in some situation, yes you can tweak some parametre to make them acte more natural but you will not get the best result and you will save alot of time later when you want to make another real/fictional car.

you have all the right to ask such question, if this discussion keep calm and respectful ( not for long time though ).

Quote from Racer Y :

Not that I care what tracks get made, but I have read that the reason Rockingham isn't released is because of tire physics with the cars? Is that right?

I think rockingham is part off s3 and only just one track is to less.

But you haven't tried new westhill

Racer Y: this thread may be interesting for you https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/86123

edit: now I see you were there already before, sorry.

About Rockingham vs better tyre physics. The original plan was to release them together, it made lot of sense, as the tyres were expected to arrive within months or a year. Scawen later admited here, that would he foreseen how it will turn out, he would very likely choose different release plan. But as it is, there was probably never the right moment to divert from the original plan (once it was obvious it doesn't work that well).

IMHO: at the moment we are anyway getting close to S3 content release? Most of the current work looks focused to support Eric in content creation, and there's quite some time since some serious tyres physics progress report, so it's probably maturing at the moment and will need another few rounds of polish before release (or another scratch and redesign ). It looks like the S3 may be released as soon, as some serious content will be ready. I'm not implying it will happen anytime soon of course, it may still take years or decades, or who knows how long, I'm just saying, that if there will be good opportunity to release content without physics, I think it will be released without another hesitation.

Without trying to be disrespectfull, you guys still believe in S3? Even if it does come out, god knows when... won't it be a little too late? I mean, its like nokia annouced the "new" cellphone 3310, 8 or 9 years ago, to be released on to the market now, 2015.... it was a good, simple, sturdy cellphone, one of the best of its time, but it would never get even close to compete with the new ones.

I detest smartphones, so will avoid the analogy

As for S3 coming too late, I would ask "For whom?". For me, it does not matter. Like other games, if something better is out there I'll play that and LFS will be forgotten - just like Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix, Scott Adam's Pirate Adventure etc before it. No big deal.

For the development team, it's their business if it's too early, or too late. It's up to them how they make their living.

Quote from lfsrm :

one detailed average 3 mils track will take 6~8 month at least if there is only one man working on his free time ( this is what I think about eric situation ), there is no miracles about this if the devs won't increase their man powers they will take years to make 3/4 tracks/cars.

I think the actual LFS physics is good enough to create an average general profil about a classe of car ( fwd/rwd.... ), but why scawen went into the new physics development ? I think it's because when you add the real cars data into the actual engine it will act weird in some situation, yes you can tweak some parametre to make them acte more natural but you will not get the best result and you will save alot of time later when you want to make another real/fictional car.

you have all the right to ask such question, if this discussion keep calm and respectful ( not for long time though ).

Thanks.
6-8 months sounds about right (tries to visualize tree placement). LOL with this free roaming, they ought to consult with a civil engineer to determine proper parking.
I'm not too concerned about the "low" number of devs. In fact, I've had plenty of experience with Design by committee and all of it bad.

"you have all the right to ask such question, if this discussion keep calm and respectful ( not for long time though )."
Yeah. I can see it heading south already. It'll probably get locked in a day or two.
Is there a "race track generator" type program? Like what the news media uses for articles is a program called wordsmith. Automated articles formed by the computer using only a few key words and phrases. Is there some sort of software like that out there? Or does every last bit have to be coded? I know there are add-ons for CAD that do that with pipelines and electrical conduit - as well as parking lots.

Quote from RC-Maus :

Quote from Racer Y :

Not that I care what tracks get made, but I have read that the reason Rockingham isn't released is because of tire physics with the cars? Is that right?

I think rockingham is part off s3 and only just one track is to less.

But you haven't tried new westhill

Hate double posting, but I didn't catch this....
Uh yeah, I have - unless they made a NEWER New Westhill (don't play multi anymore as it's empty when I get on. so probably no stats on me for it)
And again. Not so much wanting a particular track, just interested in how it gets made.

Quote from Racer Y :

Is there a "race track generator" type program? Like what the news media uses for articles is a program called wordsmith. Automated articles formed by the computer using only a few key words and phrases. Is there some sort of software like that out there? Or does every last bit have to be coded? I know there are add-ons for CAD that do that with pipelines and electrical conduit - as well as parking lots.

Well, it's not "random" per se but could interest you.
Take a look.

Very neat idea.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/388980

Quote from Meanie :

Quote from Racer Y :

Is there a "race track generator" type program? Like what the news media uses for articles is a program called wordsmith. Automated articles formed by the computer using only a few key words and phrases. Is there some sort of software like that out there? Or does every last bit have to be coded? I know there are add-ons for CAD that do that with pipelines and electrical conduit - as well as parking lots.

Well, it's not "random" per se but could interest you.
Take a look.

Very neat idea.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/388980

yea still infinished atm, but it's a mervelous thing for importing google map data and making the early layout ( Id like to have the same capablity into blender )!! you have only to export to an external 3d software and add details etc.

but I don't think that you can make a detailed physics mesh, btw an improvement to the lfs track in this area is very welcome.

Quote from JBiturbo :

one of the best of its time, but it would never get even close to compete with the new ones.

But does it need to be? I still play openTTD (online) now and then to relax...

It's a game from 1995. Twenty years ago. Improved by the community by the way. Because open source works

If you like rally tracks, give the semi-procedural track editor in Stunt Rally a try, then 3D Rip it when ready.

Quote from cargame.nl :

But does it need to be? I still play openTTD (online) now and then to relax...

It's a game from 1995. Twenty years ago. Improved by the community by the way. Because open source works

Oh my... You just made me to install OpenTTD again. It has been so many years since I played it last time.

Thank you for a "reminder"

Quote from cargame.nl :

But does it need to be? I still play openTTD (online) now and then to relax...

It's a game from 1995. Twenty years ago. Improved by the community by the way. Because open source works

I play OpenTTD too m8. Yes, i know what you mean, but the part where you say " Improved by the community by the way" is very important to the fact the we both still play it! The community took what was good from that game, and just added what needed to be added to keep the game enjoyable( like zoom options, construction options, all kinds of vehicle mods, ai, etc etc )

LFS atm is basicly the same as it was a bunch of years ago. MAybe if it was open source it would still be alive and well! I never complained about the physics or the game itself, i did complain, and more then once, about false expectations created by the devs about the sciroco and the track. All "we" ever wanted was more tracks and maybe a few more cars. Its as simple as that, and in my opinin thats all the game needed at that point.

But now, as time goes by, and decent car simulation games are not just only LFS and Rfactor, i just feel like S3 wont be enough to pull me in again, due to a number of aspects that maybe 5 years ago wouldnt even matter to me, but now they do ( i hope you understand what im trying to say )

Still, if it was worth it, i cant say 100% i wouldnt come back....but it had to be something big and substancial.

Quote from BaileyGroutage :

Scawen and the others suffer for LFS. They demand perfection from the game and we are lucky that they even put up with any less than perfection from us, the mere end user.

If you want frills and tracks and body kits and bling, there's a bunch of other games out there.

For me, LFS is the staple, and it is the only game I feel truly helps me drive in real life.

I'll be waiting, even if it's for a few more years for S3 and the other improvements.

Scawen did indeed, suposably, demanded perfection but only on his tyre physics. Or maybe he just hit a brick wall in coding and hope someday he would eventualy get over it. But you can't really say that he and the rest of devs suffered for LFS, when this was their second jobs. LFS was something on the side, secondary, and probably still is. If LFS was devs 1st income source, you can bet the game would be already in S4 or S5 or even further, with a comunity growing bigger and bigger.

I never wanted frills, or body kits or bling.....and i dont really understand the attack made here...all i wanted was tracks and a few more cars. Because i made almost 100k km on 6 tracks ( and its variations ) and got fed up with driving in the same old places. Thats the main reason i stoped playing LFS.

LFS was, and still is, unique in its physics. Theres no denying that, its a fact.

"we are lucky that they even put up with any less than perfection from us, the mere end user. " - so many things wrong with this sentence.

We are not mere users, we paid for the game and if it wasn´t for us, there would be no game. LFS comunity is a god send to the devs. They are extremely lucky to have such a devoted group of ppl like this, some even willing to wait years and years for something that may not even happen! ( yes, thats you, m8 ). The comunity took a good physics based game, and made it a great simulation experience with the leagues, championships, skinning, teams, broadcasts, add-ons, scripts, servers, etc. ALOT of work was put in by some of the "mere users".

That search for "anything less then perfection", or whatever you mean by that, is whats killing LFS. Devs should always hear what the comunity has to say, especialy this one. Everybody was happy with the tyre physics. We never asked for "perfection", because the game was already pretty good for us. We only asked for diversity like tracks ( inluding the famous rally pack craved by TVE ) and cars, and maybe some model remakes to make interiors like XFR and XFG ( since a majority drives from cockpit ) and more tracks. Things that take a bit of time, but they are fairly achievable. Everybody was willing to pay for that, for a true S3 pack that brought that.

Im sorry for the long post, and im not trying to disrespect anybody, i just felt you got the wrong message.

LFS is still unique but..but I know we could have more and I know it would be quality stuff, but things aren't going as we might have wanted them to go

Still no further along as to how the tracks get made....
May as well lock this thread

LFS is for me more than a game, it is a simulation.
We are all aware that the developement is slow, but LFSDEV are passionate. not just here for the money.

whether they have several jobs, this does not concern us their personal lives.

I prefer to wait and have a quality S3. this only concerns me
long life LFS!

Quote from Racer Y :

Still no further along as to how the tracks get made....
May as well lock this thread

You can make a track with any mainstream 3d software ( 3ds max, blender.... ), starting from google map data or CAD blueprint, using laserscan give the most accurate result but it's heavily expensive.

also the most difficult part of making a track is the amount of objects needed to make a nice moderne looking track, and the texturing part with the UVs things that give headache to every 3d artists even the most experienced one, because if you want to give a natural looking for your track, you need to work every transitions of textures between every part of the track, from sands to grass or from tarmac to grass, baking every object to give them fake shadows etc...

3D work it's a bit different from software programing, the more people you have the fast your project will reach completion, it's like building a house if you are alone you will make 8 years but if you are 5 you will make 1 year.

◕‿◕✿) peaceful protest (◕‿◕✿)

Quote from lfsrm :

it's like building a house if you are alone you will make 8 years but if you are 5 you will make 1 year.

Yeah, correct. But you pay also five times salary. Some settle for building a house in eight years, nobody tells them to rush otherwise XY happens (?) ...

Quote from cargame.nl :

Quote from lfsrm :

it's like building a house if you are alone you will make 8 years but if you are 5 you will make 1 year.

Yeah, correct. But you pay also five times salary. Some settle for building a house in eight years, nobody tells them to rush otherwise XY happens (?) ...

this is how 3d industrie work, I explained it a bit for people wondering why they make so much times about content, like I said in the previous thread no one can change their mind about their own business, but I took the house exemple to explain how fastidious the work can be for only one man.

we are not talking about someone private project, but an massive multiplayer game where the community play an important role to keep the game alive, I think the devs are prepared to receive comments and suggestions, playing stubborn who don't care about what happen outside is the biggest of mistakes.

Yeah ok.. But when is something considered a mistake? When dev(s) decide to let LFS die and start to work for some charity organisation is it then their 'mistake' or do you/we see it as a 'mistake'? This community is known to judge and dictate other peoples life. Very strange because most cannot control their own lifes.

Quote from cargame.nl :

Yeah ok.. But when is something considered a mistake? When dev(s) decide to let LFS die and start to work for some charity organisation is it then their 'mistake' or do you/we see it as a 'mistake'? This community is known to judge and dictate other peoples life. Very strange because most cannot control their own lifes.

this is not a dictates but suggestions, you're always taking the extreme side of things..., as the community we have the right to give our opinion or suggestions, many of us was/still playing this game and we somehow keep this game alive, so the community is a full part of this game, that's why I said ignoring such important part is a big mistakes.

Now, no one know if the devs will take those suggestions as a dictate from lazy/failure people like you said, or a friendly advice, but hey there is no rules against so I presuming they are ok with that.