Dawesdust, you have no experience in VR, most of your statements seem to have little-to-no basis in fact, and you rely on sensationalism and overstatement to put your opinions above others who have more experience and knowledge than you.

If you ever were to make a valid point, no-one would see it because of the torrent of utter rubbish that cascades throughout your posts.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

Quote from grammatonfeather :

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

So you mean if I went and posted in the Xbox subreddit that PS4 was better, I wouldn't get flamed? That's an absolutely insane example. You step into a place where everyone has become infatuated about something and say something about something they dislike, of course that's the response. If you tell someone that his wife is a **** idiot, you're likely to get punched in the face as well. That's the most framed argument I've ever seen.

Point you're missing is that many of those Elite Dangerous players who use Oculus or Vive - upgraded from multi-monitor setups and Track-IR. The fact that they had multi-monitor setups or track-ir meant they were into simulation. Guess what... Simulation is the prime market for DK2, CV1 and Vive. PC based HMD VR appeals more to serious gamers/sim fans than casual gamers. That's partly due to it being an emerging technology at a higher price-point and because simulation fans generally want whatever it takes to increase realism. This is why the Fanatec racing wheel and pedals costs more than a CV1. That's why a serious racing sim setup will cost more than a CV1. You're complaining about a technology that most benefits serious sim fans!

So.. that guy who posted on Frontier forum VR section that triple monitor was the ultimate setup... Well those VR users already had multi-monitor setups. Just like TrackIR... it was the best technology available at the time. Things change. Technology moves on. Multi-monitor setups will remain an option for those who want them but unfortunately for you... Such setups will see a decline along with TrackIR over the coming years.

It's not that I'm missing the point, it's that there is no point. I couldn't care less about what some players in a VR forum said about VR. It's like going to a Republican National Convention and asking their opinions on abortion.

Simulation fans is already easily the smallest niche out of any market. White people who play untranslated Japanese dating games is a larger market pool than simulations.

So you're creating a niche product for an already small niche. To go out and say "yeah, we're gonna make it pretty cheap" was a completely disingenuous statement. Of course now Oculus has realized this, but they've already failed. They already created impossible expectations that they cannot meet. As a consumer, I was interested when they said they were aiming for $300 as a price point (and this was pre-Facebook money). But now they have Facebook money and they're unable to hit that price point? How is that even possible.

The concept that Oculus and Microsoft have that everyone will have a VR headset or a HMD is absolutely ridiculous, which is why they're both going to end up as expensive flops.

Thus concluding you're too ignorant about VR to talk to. In your mind because VR wasn't a thing and because it's not taken over the entire planet that it's a niche market. You're too how to say... simple of mind to grasp growth market and one that's expanding at an enormous rate. To you that just equates to gimmick hype. What's actually taking place is that a lot of the big name corporations actually understand now that VR is a thing. Hence the colossal amounts of money going into said industry.

As I said.. CV1 is the first consumer gaming HMD and it's price will be higher than your $200 limit and that is something you can't accept. So your childish brain says "they have failed". "Oculus is a failure". You've already been asked to provide your data proving Oculus has failed. Oculus DK2 sold out and the value of that product has now doubled on the 2nd hand market. That hardly equates to failure. CV1 will launch within a few months and is already in the hands of developers. That is hardly a failure.

Already has the biggest range of developed titles. That is hardly a failure.

But you are a child so you can only understand 'he said it would cost $275 and he lied and I hate him and his scammy company and I won't buy any anyway all VR is crap and anyway I would only buy Vive but I don't even like Vive because it's all crap and I will just buy 2 monitors for $500 and that will beat any VR system and you can't prove otherwise not even your laughing buddies over at frontier... nah, nah, nah nah, nah.'

I love when this happens.

People are unable to make their point using rational points, so they must choose to attack the individual. It's an absolute classic approach as when it occurs I know that they've just conceded then and there that they're wrong.

Every single one of your arguments have been littered with either condescending comments or hyperbolic insults in some fashion.

Any rational argument that you may or may not have has been destroyed with your decision to litter your responses with pretentious phrases like "No one with a brain" or "You're too how to say... simple of mind" or downright call me a child.

Then you provide the pièce de résistance of deciding to go on a mock tirade

Quote :

he said it would cost $275 and he lied and I hate him and his scammy company and I won't buy any anyway all VR is crap and anyway I would only buy Vive but I don't even like Vive because it's all crap and I will just buy 2 monitors for $500 and that will beat any VR system and you can't prove otherwise not even your laughing buddies over at frontier... nah, nah, nah nah, nah.

It's laughable at how you decide to undermine any points you may have by choosing to litter them with such rancid condescension.

Quote from grammatonfeather :

Well one of my VR friends just informed me: HTC Vive consumer release in April.

7000 developer kits 2 in January.

Yep, it's official:
http://blog.htc.com/2015/12/htc-vive-update/

Oh man that's pathetic. They must have known for a long time that they won't make it this year, why didn't they announce that earlier? There is so many people waiting for it and they just got surprise f##ked.

Well, so it apears that Rift CV1 will be the first to hit the market since April is Q2 and Rift will be out somewhere in Q1.

As somebody who doesn't care too much about games/HW/etc (I just like it.. when it's cheap and when it works, and when it doesn't require too much of pampering; break any of those, and off I go to rather to some good book, meal or forest walk)... I find funny how deep some of you go on this.

Amynue: whoever is f##ked because new tech is 2Q late should feel extremely f##ked, and we can cheer on that, because pricks feeling f##ked is generally good thing. They are born for that reason... I think. Seriously: I would be much more afraid of the consumer version being rushed and low quality than waiting another year for it. Your tone is similar to the thing which partly drove me away from game dev biz.. gamers want it all, now, and even then they bitch about it. Ideally over pirated version, as a pure bonus to the insult receiver.

And that guy telling the VR is the "thing" thanks to Oculus, he's right. Get before the kickstarter event, erase Oculus, and Vive would be at least 10% worse product in every aspect, in price probably 100% worse, whatever it will be. Oculus was pushing on the edge, and publicly, so it for sure gave lot of inspiration to the internal valve/sony/... VR teams. The VR is not a new thing, the head sets were available for a decade. Oculus was first to give a hope that this time they will finally "work" for almost everyone. And that has still to be proven by CV1 sales...

From consumer point of view Rift can't be dead. It was not even released yet. It's nice the insiders are already on the next thing and stuff, but don't think consumers will follow that fast. Just put both (rift vs vive) boxes on the shelf in market, and most of the customers will take the cheaper one, most of the rest will go by "gut feeling" or reviews from their fav website, and like 1-5% of people will actually check and understand the technical side and decide by that.

About DirectX API ... as a device developer you should work your ass off to support as much tech/platforms as possible. IMO... I don't get it why they don't open document the low driver stuff, and let the community to build the drivers and libs. Actually that's happening with vive and openVR, valve got it right. DirectX-only way is dead already, because windows is not any more dominant. Half of CPUs sold today work slave under different OS (mostly the ugly android, which I genuinely hate, because I'm programming for it ). If the Oculus doesn't have enough manpower to keep both DX9 and DX11 API working, it's their problem, they are narrowing their market impact. They are sort of lucky that DX11 will cover most of the games right now (but not LFS), but I think the future is sort of bleak, if they keep insisting on this and don't move fast enough. Locking your HW to single API *is* artificial restriction.

Finally, I just hope Scawen doesn't read this babbling in this thread, and works on new version of LFS instead.

Amyneu: now I read the htc memo... wait a second, it's about the development kit version 2 being commercially available, not the consumer version. So, when will be Vive at market like seriously? Rift is going CV1 soon. If vive is 1-2y late, of course it should be technically superior, one spoiled customer like me would expect exactly that.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

I love when this happens.

People are unable to make their point using rational points, so they must choose to attack the individual. It's an absolute classic approach as when it occurs I know that they've just conceded then and there that they're wrong.

Every single one of your arguments have been littered with either condescending comments or hyperbolic insults in some fashion.

Any rational argument that you may or may not have has been destroyed with your decision to litter your responses with pretentious phrases like "No one with a brain" or "You're too how to say... simple of mind" or downright call me a child.

Then you provide the pièce de résistance of deciding to go on a mock tirade

Quote :

he said it would cost $275 and he lied and I hate him and his scammy company and I won't buy any anyway all VR is crap and anyway I would only buy Vive but I don't even like Vive because it's all crap and I will just buy 2 monitors for $500 and that will beat any VR system and you can't prove otherwise not even your laughing buddies over at frontier... nah, nah, nah nah, nah.

It's laughable at how you decide to undermine any points you may have by choosing to litter them with such rancid condescension.

"People are unable to make their point using rational points, so they must choose to attack the individual. It's an absolute classic approach as when it occurs I know that they've just conceded then and there that they're wrong.

Every single one of your arguments have been littered with either condescending comments or hyperbolic insults in some fashion" <<< This is the only thing you've said that I can agree with.

Your only argument is an emotional one. Your rage and hatred because OculusVR lied to you and pushed the price beyond what you wanted to pay. And you think that's a reasonable way to respond? You think your response is grown-up? Do you actually think Palmer is raising the cost of CV1 because he's a fraud? The cost of CV1 was never set in stone and there are so many variables. Research & development was enormous for this product. New techniques were developed to create the CV1 casing. The cost of CV1 isn't being inflated artificially. It's being released at the lowest possible price point and that will still be affordable to simulation enthusiasts. If you're a casual gamer then I get it won't suit you. You clearly know nothing about the design and build of Oculus and are simply reacting to the final result: a price that deviates from the cost of the developer kit.

You are oblivious to all other comments from people trying to educate you. Quite simply: the first consumer wave of VR will be the most expensive. It is reasonable and understandable that Oculus CV1 and Vive will be more expensive than the developer kits. At least they aren't priced at $3000 like Hololens or $1300 like Sony HMZ.

Can you explain to us how your ranting doesn't extend to HTC Vive pricing? The general consensus is that Vive will cost more than CV1. Why don't valve price the Vive within your budget of $275? Surely that company have failed you also? They must be scammers yes? Any rational person can understand that first wave consumer VR products are priced out of necessity. There are no free rides here.

There are plenty of sim enthusiasts who are already set on purchasing the Vive as soon as it becomes available even though they know it will cost more than CV1.

Quote from Ped7g :

Amyneu: now I read the htc memo... wait a second, it's about the development kit version 2 being commercially available, not the consumer version. So, when will be Vive at market like seriously? Rift is going CV1 soon. If vive is 1-2y late, of course it should be technically superior, one spoiled customer like me would expect exactly that.

I did say the consumer is coming in April.

grammatonfeather: Account freshly created by a troll or a Oculus member to defend his product.

Seriously, for me it's Vive all the way for VR, simply because Oculus = Facebook + Oculus exclusive title + closed standard = shit, and there is nothing that would make me accept a this technology and market to be exploited by closed standard for once. You don't have to buy monitor specific titles, and that's the same case here. Just my two cents here, and I seriously hope companies like Oculus will never be on the monopoly of VR, it will just kill this promising technology, and continue to hurt gamers, just like season passes and preorders did.

Quote from nacim :

grammatonfeather: Account freshly created by a troll or a Oculus member to defend his product.

I don't see how he is a troll. He is the only one making sense in this argument.

The Vive is expected to be better on the specsheet, but as far as I know there are no CV1 official spec for either of the devices. The prices are still unknown, and laserzs!!1! aren't inherently better than a IR camera.

If anyone don't like VR it's fine, don't follow this thread.
If you prefer one over the other it's fine. At this point we are just speculating. Until the release of both devices (and probably after a few software updates) we can only state our personal opinion.

Does Scawen has to update LFS to support this technology? ABSOLUTELY YES. Maybe it is niche, but it is the future. Some people already see this reality, others will do in a few years. Maybe in CV3, after the technology is mature and the prices affordable for everyone, but everybody is gonna love VR.

Anyway, the vive or the rift will completely destroy the triple screen solution in term of affordability.

Quote from Amynue :

Oh man that's pathetic. They must have known for a long time that they won't make it this year, why didn't they announce that earlier? There is so many people waiting for it and they just got surprise f##ked.

Hard launch of the Vive was _never_ going to happen this year, there was absolutely zero marketing work happening in the gaming scene for it - and yet people were thinking it was going to out in december. Once it's closer to an actual launch (say couple months) expect to see it being pushed hard by HTC and Valve everywhere.

Quote from Whiskey :

Quote from nacim :

grammatonfeather: Account freshly created by a troll or a Oculus member to defend his product.

I don't see how he is a troll. He is the only one making sense in this argument.

The Vive is expected to be better on the specsheet, but as far as I know there are no CV1 official spec for either of the devices. The prices are still unknown, and laserzs!!1! aren't inherently better than a IR camera.

If anyone don't like VR it's fine, don't follow this thread.
If you prefer one over the other it's fine. At this point we are just speculating. Until the release of both devices (and probably after a few software updates) we can only state our personal opinion.

Does Scawen has to update LFS to support this technology? ABSOLUTELY YES. Maybe it is niche, but it is the future. Some people already see this reality, others will do in a few years. Maybe in CV3, after the technology is mature and the prices affordable for everyone, but everybody is gonna love VR.

Wise words. Yes, agree. The downside of the Vive laser system are the mechanical motors. I believe it was an ex valve engineer who proposed a better scanning system using electronic actuators rather than motors.

"Quote from nacim :
grammatonfeather: Account freshly created by a troll or a Oculus member to defend his product. Big grin" >> Freshly created account because I just learned LFS supports VR. I certainly am pro-VR and always have been right since the days of IO-Systems PC3d. I'm not really biased towards one system though but Palmer has lead the way in consumer VR development. I was also in shock about the Facebook acquisition but Palmer assured me it was a very good deal: "no more hunting around for scrap parts - all custom made now" and this is true.

Nvidia plan to release their own VR system using stacked displays. Such a system would produce much more life-like 3d and according to Nvidia and Stanford University: reduce the issue of VR nausea.

Quote from grammatonfeather :

"People are unable to make their point using rational points, so they must choose to attack the individual. It's an absolute classic approach as when it occurs I know that they've just conceded then and there that they're wrong.

Every single one of your arguments have been littered with either condescending comments or hyperbolic insults in some fashion" <<< This is the only thing you've said that I can agree with.

So, you agree with me then that you have no actual legitimate points.

Thanks

Dustin, I've read these posts through, quite quickly as it went along. You are the one coming across as problematic here. You are defending one system over another, very forcefully and with much exaggeration, having tried neither. If you have never put on a VR headset, you should really take a much calmer approach to the whole thing. It's not surprising that grammatonfeather starts to get annoyed with you, then makes a comment that you perceive as an attack. But really, he has spoken quite reasonably all the way whereas you seem crazy and biased. If you don't like something Oculus did, you can say what it was and why you don't like it. There are reasonably ways to make negative points. If you do so, people will listen to you. Otherwise you are just ranting and when that goes on and on it becomes a waste of time, causes your posts to be reported, people requesting that you be permanently banned and so on. I don't like this because you are wasting my time. Why can't you stick to being helpful and reasonable. You know how to do that, if you really think about it.

Quote from Scawen :

Dustin, I've read these posts through, quite quickly as it went along. You are the one coming across as problematic here. You are defending one system over another, very forcefully and with much exaggeration, having tried neither. If you have never put on a VR headset, you should really take a much calmer approach to the whole thing. It's not surprising that grammatonfeather starts to get annoyed with you, then makes a comment that you perceive as an attack. But really, he has spoken quite reasonably all the way whereas you seem crazy and biased. If you don't like something Oculus did, you can say what it was and why you don't like it. There are reasonably ways to make negative points. If you do so, people will listen to you. Otherwise you are just ranting and when that goes on and on it becomes a waste of time, causes your posts to be reported, people requesting that you be permanently banned and so on. I don't like this because you are wasting my time. Why can't you stick to being helpful and reasonable. You know how to do that, if you really think about it.

I don't understand how I'm being that unreasonable or saying anything banworthy? I'm not the one throwing casual insults or other remarks into my replies.

If people are asking that I get banned from what I've said in this thread, then they're allowing the past to influence their decision making. I've been writing in a manner that's coherent and calm.

It's illogical when the other party has littered his posts with phrases like "No one with a brain" or "You're too how to say... simple of mind", yet I'm the one being told off? It wasn't even when he was getting annoyed where he was using these phrases. It was from the very beginning where he was acting in this manner. Should I just start prefacing anything I say about VR fanboys with "mindless", as that seems to be the behaviour that you're advocating for.

If you really want to understand, and I hope you do (but I guess you don't) then I suggest you go back to grammatonfeather's first post and start reading your own posts, trying to imagine you are just an ordinary person with an interest in VR and no absurdly biased views. Then you may begin to see the problems with your posts.

It's there, plain to see. Sometimes in life you have to look at your own actions and change a bit. I've had to in the past and I am suggesting you do, because you are very often causing trouble round here. It's really tiresome.

Quote from Scawen :

If you really want to understand, and I hope you do (but I guess you don't) then I suggest you go back to grammatonfeather's first post and start reading your own posts, trying to imagine you are just an ordinary person with an interest in VR and no absurdly biased views. Then you may begin to see the problems with your posts.

It's there, plain to see. Sometimes in life you have to look at your own actions and change a bit. I've had to in the past and I am suggesting you do, because you are very often causing trouble round here. It's really tiresome.

So having rational conversations without resorting to childish words tossed in is now "causing trouble"? I might as well have just called him a moron, as apparently writing in a manner that avoids throwing irrelevant jabs at someones intellect or other personality traits is "causing trouble".

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

So having rational conversations[...]

That is what Scawen is telling you. You were not having a rational conversation. And it is very disturbing to see the forum flooded with nonsense and biased opinions, huge wall of texts posted again and again by the same people.

Quote from Whiskey :

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

So having rational conversations[...]

That is what Scawen is telling you. You were not having a rational conversation. And it is very disturbing to see the forum flooded with nonsense and biased opinions, huge wall of texts posted again and again by the same people.

I'm certain the one saying that others lack a brain or are simple minded is the one who is incapable of having a rational conversation.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

I'm certain the one saying that others lack a brain or are simple minded is the one who is incapable of having a rational conversation.

I'm not gonna fall in your tricks to start another endless useless posts.

But when someone is told over and over that he is not right and he is not able to get that fact, maybe there is some true in that statement...

Quote from Whiskey :

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

I'm certain the one saying that others lack a brain or are simple minded is the one who is incapable of having a rational conversation.

I'm not gonna fall in your tricks to start another endless useless posts.

But when someone is told over and over that he is not right and he is not able to get that fact, maybe there is some true in that statement...

How can anyone be right? The whole thing is based purely on speculation. There's no hard sales numbers to back the "success" of VR in general as there's no consumer market VR device out there yet.

It's all just speculation. That said, you can look at the numbers and make educated guesses as to how profitable a VR system truly can be. In the Rift's case, it's significantly less versatile and functional than the alternative, which reduces the potential market even further. Sure VR is cool, but lots of cool things don't have the mass market required to actually make a business model. Oculus fell into the classic startup culture where boatloads of money gets injected into a "cool" thing, but that "cool" thing may not be something that is a marketable consumer product.

There is a serious problem with room scale VR in its current form. The wire!

If you are a simulation enthusiast and aren't interested in stand-up games / tripping over the wire / crashing into walls etc, and you only want to be seated, then the decision for you will be about things like how comfortable the HMD is, how high the resolution is in the centre of the screen, how wide is the angle of view, if it runs quietly, what the price is (and do you like the company you are handing over your money to).

Quote from Scawen :

There is a serious problem with room scale VR in its current form. The wire!

If you are a simulation enthusiast and aren't interested in stand-up games / tripping over the wire / crashing into walls etc, and you only want to be seated, then the decision for you will be about things like how comfortable the HMD is, how high the resolution is in the centre of the screen, how wide is the angle of view, if it runs quietly, what the price is (and do you like the company you are handing over your money to).

Which at this point, I think Valve has the ability to make room scale VR wireless. Given that the HMD only really needs to be a small SoC capable of decoding video, which is something they already have experience with that works exceptionally well, it's a small leap from adding that, along with a pocketable battery pack to complete the setup.

Given how Valve rapidly iterates on everything they've done for the last 10 years, It's a reasonable prediction that removing the cord is either a V1 or V2 feature.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

Which at this point, I think Valve has the ability to make room scale VR wireless. Given that the HMD only really needs to be a small SoC capable of decoding vide

VR needs the minimum input/output lag possible. They tried to do it a year ago and technology wasn't there yet. I wouldn't expect it before the second version of theses things.