This thread is to discuss SimulatorRental.com's requests as described on the patch thread:
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1907371#post1907371

The issue is unusual - using a single computer for multiple instances of LFS with their own input and output devices.

Each instance of LFS needs to be able to select its graphics and audio device and its force feedback input device.

Quote from SimulatorRental.com :

What I was envisioning is if you clicked the FF device button, it would automatically select the 4 to 6 axis that go with it. Less button pushing. Especially when I have to setup 8 to 24 wheels.

OK, my first question is, do you have separate installations of Live for Speed on the single computer? A separate installation that is intended to connect to its required devices?

Quote from SimulatorRental.com :

Heck the button could be larger, and be a part of, or at least use the text from, the devices found list as well. I really wish I could go by serial number on the device so I knew what device went with what physical wheel with out having to turn each wheel... then maybe each driver name in the game could be "Saved" with a wheel memorized too it. So I just have to load a game with driver name Machine 1 Machine 2... etc... then have the wheel, monitor, and audio output device saved to it. Then if I lose power or system needs to be rebooted in the middle of a 2 hour event I do not have to spend a half hour setting it all back up again.

I understand this can be complicated / annoying to set up the first time, but it's not clear to me why you need to set it up again after a restart. Are the input devices not reported in the same order each time the computer starts? So that each instance of LFS can simply load its previously assigned axes and buttons?

Or is the problem that you don't know which ones will be plugged in, and it can be different every time?

Quote from SimulatorRental.com :

REALLY need something with the audio device selection. But that can wait until after the VR stuff... although it might help when selecting VR audio output.

I'll look into this audio device selection in the next few days. Hopefully will know more by Wednesday. I'm busy sorting out quite a few things at the moment.

Quote from SimulatorRental.com :

Can the wheel be programed to automatically return to TRUE center?

After a crash that needs to reset the car, or reset the race, kids often have the wheel rotated 360 degrees when they start, thinking the wheel is straight on, but its not.. sot hey go slamming sideways into the wall or other cars. This may also be required for VR!!! as someone may have the wheel upside down but it might feel right with out looking at it.

So, maybe something like...

If race restarts - wheel to center
If car resets - wheel to center

Interesting, I agree a gently centering wheel would be useful.

Quote from SimulatorRental.com :

Once the Audio and Wheel selection is setup right, and I get the trailer built to haul the simulators around, I can finally start doing simulator events. The image is of the current trailer concept that I hope the trailer builder can actually build.

Looks good.

Quote from Scawen :

This thread is to discuss SimulatorRental.com's requests as described on the patch thread:
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1907371#post1907371

The issue is unusual - using a single computer for multiple instances of LFS with their own input and output devices.

Each instance of LFS needs to be able to select its graphics and audio device and its force feedback input device.

At first I was going to use VMware to run multiple machines, but while I was testing VMware you released a version of LFS that could actually do this with out blinking all of the monitors like crazy when you change focus between them. So I tried it out, and it so far as I can tell will work just fine, excluding setup being a bit cumbersome each time. Also recently I posted about a graphics error that popped up when using vmware due to the new graphics changes, so right now VMware is not actually working, and I need to figure out how to get something like PCI pass through to work on 8 machines with only 2 video cards to get that to work.

I am liking running it all on one OS though, easy to move mouse around, and I only need 1 mouse and keyboard to run all of them.

Quote from Scawen :

OK, my first question is, do you have separate installations of Live for Speed on the single computer? A separate installation that is intended to connect to its required devices?

Because I have been reinstalling a lot, due to new versions and test versions, I have been re-using the same installation when running the game, so only 1 install. Separate installs have not been required yet. The advantage with this, is once I change settings, I do not have to do it again for each cockpit seat. I am actually surprised it works so well doing it this way!

I was thinking of having a separate copy to save different driver names etc, but the game already has multiple driver name support.

Quote from Scawen :

I understand this can be complicated / annoying to set up the first time, but it's not clear to me why you need to set it up again after a restart. Are the input devices not reported in the same order each time the computer starts? So that each instance of LFS can simply load its previously assigned axes and buttons?

Or is the problem that you don't know which ones will be plugged in, and it can be different every time?

Because I am running it all on a single install, the game only saves one wheel setup, although I have not yet tried to see if controller axis data gets saved with driver data?!!? maybe?!
I am not even sure it is saving it, as only one ever works when I first load them up. Still messing with this...

Not knowing for sure what wheel will be plugged in in what order also compounds the issue.
However, it should be no big deal to walk up to each one, wiggle the wheel, and say you get this one, click, wiggle another wheel you get this one, click... etc... Having to press each pedal would be annoying.

It would be nice if the hardware all the wheels, sound, and monitors, themselves had unique ID's in them, so the software could look for and go by that, but even VMware cannot do that due to manufactures not properly making their products. If you can pull that off, that will be a feat!

Quote from Scawen :

I'll look into this audio device selection in the next few days. Hopefully will know more by Wednesday. I'm busy sorting out quite a few things at the moment.

In my case, I will have either 8 or more monitors with audio out to speakers, or headphones, or even both so people can choose.

Right now if I run multiple LFS, they ALL play from the same source, even if I change it each time just before I load the software, there was a time if I changed it, it would "sometimes" stick and I could get 2 or 3 separate audio devices to work. So even if that was working, it is very easy to screw it up.. and have to start over.

There are a handful of games where you can go to an audio menu and change devices for each separate device, sound, music, voice chat, and microphone.

Quote from Scawen :

Interesting, I agree a gently centering wheel would be useful.

Yes, "gently" is what I had in mind, something that will not rip kids fingers off, but will still guide their hands to center, so the wheel is not 360 when they start driving again.

Quote from Scawen :

Looks good.

Thanks, I have done MANY trailer concepts the last few years, some too big, to heavy, to expensive, or to complicated to build... still not even sure this one can be built, still waiting for quotes. I have the most hope for this version because it is the smallest I have drawn yet

I am using ONE machine to do this, in the attempt to save money, save wattage for generator use, and have less pieces to move indoors for indoor events, and when the trailer is in storage.

There are likely many better ways I could have tried this, but all the mini PC I could find that were up to the task, were over $1000. So I used components that came out a few years ago. Plus, I get to use the system for CAD work when they are not racing.

The downsides of this older computer is SATA2 and PCI2... and it is very HEAVY.

Two, Opteron 6386 SE 16 Core Processors, so 32 Cores, more then 8 to 12 instances of LFS will use. Plus it is on a Quad processor board, so I can double that when I find two more processors cheap.

Two, AMD FirePro W9100 16GB DDR4 WorkStation Graphics Cards, so 32GB of Video Ram more then needed. Each of these cards has 6 Display Ports, and can handle 6 4K monitors but only 30hz I am not using 4K so each can get 6 going at 75hz or more. Freesync is SUPOSE to work, but I've been waiting for AMD to figure out why it wont for a few months. I may need to liquid cool these if I cannot fit an air conditioner next to the server in the trailer, or both .

128GB of RAM, I went with error correcting, if I need faster ram, this motherboard can also use gaming ram.

Using A 8TB HE HDD that I wish I did not buy, great drive, but TOO BIG for my use. I was waiting for price to drop more on SSD, however if I do not need to run VMware only need 1/12 of the drive space, so I am going to raid them for speed later, not space.

Thanks, it seems quite clear now. It would be nice to stick with a single installation of LFS otherwise it's kind of wasteful.

So it looks like the basic things you need are:

1) Easy way to set up ONE wheel in an instance of LFS where there are actually several wheels connected to the computer. Basically selecting that device with a click or two after starting LFS and that could do a 'refresh' but ignore all the other controllers, not creating a massive list of axes and buttons.

2) A way to select the audio output device.

Those are the most important things. Then the next thing is:

3) A way for LFS to try to centre the wheel so it is ready at the start of a race or after a car reset.

After that there are refinements that would be nice but may be difficult and are not essential:

4) Some way to select a player or start up LFS with command line options that select the screen, wheel and speakers all in one.

For now I will just forget about number 4, assuming that you will be happy enough just being able to easily select the wheel device and audio device with the minimum amount of messing around after starting each instance of LFS. And I assume that you are happy enough with the screen setup, though I don't really know how you do that. Is it like one massive desktop, and you slide LFS across to the appropriate monitor then press SHIFT+F11?

4) Sounds too complex for now... it can wait.
In fact it will be a few months until I am operational, so no hurry on any of it, just wanted to get the need, known.

Screen selection by opening and dragging it to the right monitor works fine. Using Shift F11 works, and it even seems to keep the monitor I moved it to if I go to true full screen, only have a few monitors to test right now though, so who knows what will happen when I get 12 screens going. If I use one of my TV's I have here, the monitor detection in windows gets confused and numbers the monitors wrong, but that is not related to LFS.

As of a few nights ago, I may have a new large client for my slot car track rental, if it works out I may be able to fund/build the trailer even sooner then planned.

If the slot track goes through it is very likely that the simulators would also get setup at the same events. If so, it will be AWSOME public exposure for LFS in USA, it may even result in a tiny amount of TV time.

Thanks, some USA exposure would be helpful.

The "one controller only" setup option and the "select audio device" are still here on my immediate list. I'm just having a less pressured two weeks, not rushing anything (and had other things to sort out). I'll report back if it's working or failing, hopefully this week. If it works OK I'll release a test patch with the updates.

What he do is that he make business this game by adverdicing it by simulator while hiding what game it is... Which is bad idea, same kind of activity is going by watching server list...

How does you know that he'll hide the game ? I know that the commercial use of LFS require to show the logo somewhere.

I was visitin some place and saw game was lfs. No logo anywhere.. Sure logo can be "somewhere" tiny text etc

There is a gaming caffe in Russia which does provide LFS among other games (list is like ~100 items, Oculus and HTC Vive games). I wonder if they ever contacted LFS devs or fitted LFS logo anywhere...

http://virtuality.club/oculus-rift

Scawen,
Awesome on the possible Test Patch.

The first event I want to use the trailer for is July 30th... but there are events before that I want to use it for. Just not sure if the trailer guy can build it by then, plus the build quote is about twice what I have in the bank. The first BIG CLIENT event is actually next month but I doubt that will happen in time, and they so far have only requested the slotcar track, so I should still have the funding from that event even without the simulators.




As for the other comments, On the contrary,

I intend to have LFS Logos on the trailer itself, possibly run replays as commercials when no racing is going on, and maybe even sell $1~2 USB disks, with LFS on them (to cover cost of USB disk). I will at the very list have the LFS.net url posted...

I already have a commercial license of LFS, which is more than S3, and will be even more when I upgrade that license to S3. There are certain rules to follow for that. Anyone not showing the logo is pretty much violating the commercial terms, and needs to be reported.

I intend support and plug the software as much as I can to anyone that has not heard of it... Scawen has the best running software I've pretty much seen in forever, and I first saw code on an Atari 400 home computer in the early 1980's.

Hi, just wanted to say this is not forgotten although we are well past the estimated date. It turned out I had a lot of non-LFS related things to sort out after the recent full version pushes.

Anyway, I should be working properly next week!

No hurry anymore... the guy that was going to build the trailer bailed on me, will not build it.

I have one more place that might do it, otherwise I am back to looking for a trailer builder.

And that place will not build it either...

I would still like to do an event with this in late July. But it will have to be without the trailer. Which means I need to find a rolling cart to put the server in, that will protect it from elements/dust, and keep it cool. Anyone have any ideas?


Or, I may need to just use separate small cheap computers............... and sell off the server.

I would go for a shockmount rack case if you plan on being portable, which is also something you'd want anyway if you plan to leave the server in the trailer while towing it.

That is one thing I've been thinking about doing, but those cases are not cheap. The case I have now is a stand up, or 4U case, which should slide into one. I may have to cut the excessively over sized drive end of the case off, though to make it small enough for a smaller cart case.

I will also need to cover all the vents with filter material. It is also going to get really hot once it is crammed into a case like that, so I may need to have an air conditioner blowing cold air into it.

And no way am I leaving this in the trailer when not in use, so it all has to be rolling, and able to roll down a grass hill so I can get it into the back door of my home, no way am I carrying a 100+ pound server cart down the stairs. Still pondering weather carrying 10 separate computers into the house at the end of every event would be better or worse...


Also the event I want to do this at, was moved to mid August, so if I did it, I would need this to work at about August 1st to have some time to get it all ready to go.

Scawen, its been a while since I saw a patch update, or heard of any progress on this. Did this throw a major wrench in the works?! sorry
I am hoping to use this for an event in August, what are the chances?
If it is not possible, I will tell them it will have to wait until next year.

IF Scawen gets LFS running perfectly multiple times in one install. Then my server I built becomes major overkill... so I put it on ebay, to see if it gets any interest. If I can sell it, I will use the funds to buy a smaller, easier to transport PC.

In case there are components I missed while shopping, what is the best PC I can build in a small MATX case, for the purpose mentioned in the posts? Anything I should wait for?

Working with another trailer builder, who will build something similar to what I want, but there are a few things they do not want to do, without drastically increasing the price.

Hi, sorry about the delay with this. It took me a long time to get going. In fact I didn't do much work in May, it turned out to be a recovery from the last few months (full version releases in February, March and April). I caught up with some cycling and implemented a 'walking around' mode for SHIFT+U mode which is fun, particularly in VR, and useful for Eric as he often uses his Rift for a close-up view on his work.

This week since Wednesday I have finally been working on the controller updates! For a start I cleaned up the DirectInput initialisation code and made it so that the "FF device" automatically uses the same device that contains the steering axis so the FF device no longer needs to be manually selected.

The next step is to allow the list of controllers to be clickable, to select a single device. That will be like clicking the refresh button except that only the selected device will be initialised. That will then naturally use the appropriate configuration (default or saved) for that device. So that should solve your problems with controllers.

Hopefully that should be done on Monday and then I'll look into the selection of the audio device and the automatic recentering of the steering wheel when the car is reset.

Thank you for the report! It's always nice to see development regardless of the scale . Sorry for the useless post but I feel like encouraging you to write even these small reports.

It's true that a nearly dead community is a motivation killer for a dev.

But still am happy to see some new stuff even if it's irrelevant for the major part of users.

Quote from Sobis :

Thank you for the report! It's always nice to see development regardless of the scale . Sorry for the useless post but I feel like encouraging you to write even these small reports.

No problem, sometimes I find a break is needed then getting back into work with a few useful features is a good start. As you know, I want to get some serious progress done on the tyre physics as it will allow a lot of possibilities for LFS in the future.

Quote from lfsrm :

It's true that a nearly dead community is a motivation killer for a dev.

But still am happy to see some new stuff even if it's irrelevant for the major part of users.

I don't see a "nearly dead" community. Obviously there is less activity than there was in the past, but death isn't the word that springs to mind if you actually look at what's going on. Looking at the lfsworld graphs there is still an *average* of around 150 *licensed* people online at any time and the number of licensed people online often goes above 250. Yeah, quite a few of these are drifting or cruising but there is racing going on every day, if you choose to join a server.

We are not lacking in motivation. Actually work has picked up a lot since those quiet years and I see a good future in LFS. I work at a more sustainable rate and also have a hobby and a family, so that's quite balanced really.

I believe that the things we add to LFS in the future will be good fun and there will be ups and downs in the online activity.

Looking forward too new updates

Quote from Scawen :

I don't see a "nearly dead" community. Obviously there is less activity than there was in the past, but death isn't the word that springs to mind if you actually look at what's going on. Looking at the lfsworld graphs there is still an *average* of around 150 *licensed* people online at any time and the number of licensed people online often goes above 250. Yeah, quite a few of these are drifting or cruising but there is racing going on every day, if you choose to join a server.

We are not lacking in motivation. Actually work has picked up a lot since those quiet years and I see a good future in LFS. I work at a more sustainable rate and also have a hobby and a family, so that's quite balanced really.

I believe that the things we add to LFS in the future will be good fun and there will be ups and downs in the online activity.

Thanks for clarification, as I said some of us will still play this sim until you will officially close the master server or retire from LFS development, so the remanent of this community are probably the most patient people you can find in all simracing community.

You are right, most of licenced/demo users are on cruising or drifting stuff ( even those who are using cracked copy ), there is maybe two active server for racing on demo, sometimes I see some s3/s2 server popup on the list with some guys racing but its very rare and it's not nearly enough to offer a good amount of diversity to say the least, LFS racing scene is suffering from the strong competition with other sim which offer licenced track/cars and much moderne graphics or organised multiplayer system, that will give you an idea why LFS have so much trouble to attract serious amount of users, I am pretty confident that you already knew that pretty well.

Improving some very specific stuff on LFS is fine, but I hope we can see at least a bigger change once 3 or 4 months with those little improvement here and there so LFS can evolve much faster compared to the past.

Maybe the amount of work is too much for only one dev, but this is how people want simracing in 2016, which naturaly need a much more dedicated developement time and sacrifices.

And sorry for the bad english.

Quote from lfsrm :

LFS racing scene is suffering from the strong competition with other sim

What other sim last more then 14 years i really started playing in 2005 bought licence in 2007 no money wasted .

I tried AC but didn't like it graphics looks good but too much arcade .... RFactor hasn't much going on online maybe iracing but that is too expensive for me.

Real hard core sims hard too find think LFS is still best

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