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meh you cared enough to post here.

sometimes i participate in discussions, not necessarily caring about the subject, but about the discussion itself.

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lol you dont care about drifters and people tht drift don't care about you.

I feel that you don't care about this discussion at all, judging by the way you write.

you are somehat correct. i am just waiting for K1 grand prix to come on in 1 hour

The reason lfs attracts so many drifters is because the game simulates rwd sportscars very well compared to other simulators. some people for some strange reason are bothered by this and are anti-drifting so they go into threads like this and try and start up a meaningless arguement. then others take the bait.

you can miss-interprit the developer's focus if it pleases you to be anti drifting.

Quote from Matrixi :

I'm sorry, but I have to get this straight, as you don't seem to know the actual meaning of the word "touge". The word "touge" actually means pass in japanese, as in Mountain Pass. You're right that the word has nothing to do with drifting, because people do both at touge, drift AND race.

Just had to clear this up.

Well, like I said, is the name in place simply for the Japanese twist to attract today's ricer crowd? Touge isn't the style of racing, it is what people who don't know any better call it. If touge literally means 'pass,' then that makes the name itself pointless. "Hey, did you guys check out that wicked "Pass" track!?!?"

Going from A to B or round a circuit is always racing. Would you say Rallye is not racing because of the lateral gs? BS! So drifting is racing, too. No one says that racing ONLY means getting from A to B in the fastest time. If you think so, dolphin style isn´t swimming because you can go faster with freestyle?

Quote from Crazy Harry :

Going from A to B or round a circuit is always racing. Would you say Rallye is not racing because of the lateral gs? BS! So drifting is racing, too. No one says that racing ONLY means getting from A to B in the fastest time. If you think so, dolphin style isn´t swimming because you can go faster with freestyle?

What? The drifting phenomenan sweeping the youth isn't racing. It is all about showmanship. You are given a score based on your performance, you don't beat someone by finishing faster than them, you beat someone by impressing judges. That[b] is not racing. "Touge" (still say we need a proper name to call this type of mountain racing.) is racing, drifting is not.

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[b]No one says that racing ONLY means getting from A to B in the fastest time

Uhm, actually, yea.. Racing is about getting somewhere the quickest. That's why it's racing. Different forms have different speeds and rules of finishing first, but the first to finish is always the winner, unless they are disqualified. As I said, drifting is not about speed, it is about impressing judges. You don't win by navigating the course fastest, you win by getting a higher score. That is not racing.

yeah lol just look up what the word race or racing means in the dictionary. Racing is more objective. as you say there is a time to beat. drifting is more subjective. its obvious what the perfect drift is for certain corners. and then the judges decide who got closest to the perfect drift.

there are different criteria for different drift events.

with rallying its about who can get the quickest from pt a to pt b.

Quote from Gabkicks :

yeah lol just look up what the word race or racing means in the dictionary.

Race -
- an extended competition where the participants struggle like runners to be the winner (ie. the presidential race)

Racing -
- to move rapidly, or at top speed
- to compete (against) in a race

(but I doubt you meant these meanings)

or did i?

Quote from Crazy Harry :

Going from A to B or round a circuit is always racing. Would you say Rallye is not racing because of the lateral gs? BS! So drifting is racing, too. No one says that racing ONLY means getting from A to B in the fastest time. If you think so, dolphin style isn´t swimming because you can go faster with freestyle?

No, that is just a class of racing. Like TBO's. Drifting = synchronised swimming

I think we should be more specific here, since we're talking about motorsport.

In terms of motorsport, racing is where the fastest driver - the driver that finishes the course or set number of laps first, or drives the furthest within the time limit (i.e. Le Mans 24hr) - wins. It's the same regardless of whether you race the clock, as in rally, or a field of cars on a circuit. Drivers are not given points for style, they are given points based on their finishing order.

BTW calling it "grip racing" isn't something I find offensive, it's just pointless. It simply states the bleeding obvious It's a tautology, like "cold snow", "wet mud" or "slow Camry".

In drifting events, the winner is the driver who scores the most points and it doesn't matter if he crosses the line first. Crossing the line first can work against you, as it means you probably weren't as stylin' as the guy you were competing against. It's skilled drivers, competing together on a racetrack, but it's not racing.

Both forms of motorsport are contests of skill, only one is a contest of speed.

yeah thats mostly true but some drifting events put more inphasis on passing.

True, but generally speaking...

Anyway, if they don't drift but beat the other guy to the line, they don't win

Can't believe the amount of silly stuff thrown around here. For the good of all of the LFS community, please go to google and search fo Tazio Nuvolari and settle this anti drift madness for good. But seriously, this tryig to score points and impress who knows who is making a mockery of motorsports. Again showing it's better to be lucky than good.

Here's the website to enlighten you all about the great Flying Mantuan:

http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/nuvo_bio.htm

Better yet, read this:

http://www.forix.com/8w/nuvolari.html

Please read this little bit of history before anyone goes anti drifting again.

The true drifter isn't who wags his tail the most; it's he who's mastered complete control of his car and goes as fast as physics would allow him. It's a sad fact that this money worshipping and overcommercialized world of ours places winning at all cost above the good of any sport.

yeah i wish we had some pre-downforce f1 type cars in lfs lol. if you listen to commentary from the 50s to 70's they often mention drifting through this or that corner. but they drift around corners for similar reasons to rally cars.

i dont think of the D1 competitons today as mockery of the sportbecause of the judging... its just all the sponsorship and commercialism that isnt so great . its good for the drivers to get payed for doing something they love. In the end its all about car control. With drifting its about getting as much angle as possible while having decent speed through corners... with racing its just about going as fast as possible.

Quote from Jamexing :

Can't believe the amount of silly stuff thrown around here. For the good of all of the LFS community, please go to google and search fo Tazio Nuvolari and settle this anti drift madness for good. But seriously, this tryig to score points and impress who knows who is making a mockery of motorsports. Again showing it's better to be lucky than good.

Here's the website to enlighten you all about the great Flying Mantuan:

He was a race car driver, not a drifter!! If driving straight was faster for him he'd have done that, his aim was to win, not to look pretty.

I'm saying that his 4-wheel drifts are a natural result of trying to go faster than everyone else, not artificially induced as todays so-called drifters.

True, he has no intention to show off, unlike todays increasingly ignorant yet arrogant kids. I'm in university and you'll be stunned at the lack of fundamental understanding in almost everything the majority of the people(students and teachers included) here show. It's just a natural result of getting the most out of the relatively low grip cars of his time. And yes, he must be one of the greatest race drivers of all time.

What point are you trying to make though? Anyone can watch WRC and see that there are situations where driving outside the traction envelope is faster...

I'm saying don't judge drifting based on the overcommercialized sideways for the sake of sideways junk. Judge it as another form of vehicular behaviour.

WRC style drifting... Now that's REAL DRIFTING.

you don't understand. When people talking about 'drifting', they're referring specifically to the overcommercialised, sideways for the sake of sideways junk. They're not just talking about a bit of oversteer.

Which is such a trajedy, because the word drifting and its meaning were in existance well before this overcommercialized junk. When one forgets the origin and history of something, trajedy is the only possible result.

Back in Nuvolari's era, race drifting was exactly what he did as a result of his persuit of faster driving.

The meaning of the word drifting has been severely warped thanks againt to mindless pop culture. Just to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, when I say drift, I mean it's original meaning(teathering at the edge of grip, the edge of control). That tire smoking tail wagging madness is more accurately called SLIDING in racing terms.

On the contrary Blowtus, I understand perfectly.

Quote from Gabkicks :

...In the end its all about car control. With drifting its about getting as much angle as possible while having decent speed through corners... with racing its just about going as fast as possible.

After having voted emphatic YES, and having read through the posts in this thread, I'm surprised to find so much antipathy towards drifting among motorsports enthusiasts. As a seasoned simulation driver (anyone remember the original Papyrus Indy 500?) I've very much enjoyed circuit racing sims over the years, but since I came across drifting a year or so back, I've come to appreciate car control from another angle (no pun intended!) altogether. What some purists seem to fail to see or unwilling to accept is that "drifting", like any other skill, can be developed into a fine art.

Just to expand on Gabkicks' point, motorsport is not all about the stopwatch, nor is it about "showing-off". It is the sport of mastering car control, the art of sensing the car's grip, momentum and rotational inertia then applying the controls to make it do what you want. In racing, the stop watch is the only measure of these skills. In drifting, there simply happens to be additional criteria. I find it snobbish of circuit racers to deride the concept of drifting because of its origin (Japan) and/or relative administrative immaturity (after all, it IS relatively new!).

Getting back on the thread topic, I think those arguing for "drift circuits" could do well to define more clearly what they are looking for. I can see how circuit racing enthusiasts would cringe at the thought of development resources being spent on a convoluted track that they might find most unenjoyable. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, I for one simply would like broader choice of venues, and I see mountainous "public road" courses as being the one glaring omission in LFS at the moment. (I also would like to see real tracks, but I digress...)

I venture to say the poll would get much better support if the question was re-worded to read something like this:
"Do you want LFS to include public-road courses (whether A to B or closed) in the style of targa/WRC tarmac stages or touges that is built over steep mountainous terrain?" What do people think?

zetecr, you've really nailed it.

WRC fun NEVER gets OLD!

I tried and tried on my Test server... without drifting around the corners my times are SLOWER around the track. So with drifting I can pass the finish line quicker. So... it ... must ... be... RACING!!! CALL ME TAZIO!

what was your goal? lap time? oversteer angle?

PB and Driftpoints (LFS-Lapper)