So we agree that button-clutch-rate engages faster than AC.
But we disagree on how large the effect is.
What buttonrate do you use?
Surely not a setting that is faster than AC because if bc supposedly has so many other advantages then that should not be nessecary...?
Why do you assume that people who disagree have not "tried it"?
I think that is simply the effect of getting used to something new.
Same effect you would see with any changed setting or new control scheme, whether it actually influences speed or not.
With bc too, at first it is unusual and that makes comparision difficult. However the effect of faster gear-change is clear whether one manages to turn it into reliable faster laps or not.
And that effect is archived by having faster engaging clutch than AC or is reliable possible with foot pedal = unrealistic = meh.
Ok now, let me start from the end of your post. That's like the thing i wanted to point out, because apparently, some said, that BC is easy, and doesn't require any practice, while actually it does. Beside getting use to new things, as you mention e.g. setup change, it also requires to manage new manners, and build muscle memory, which is ofc time consuming. But some ppl still act like it's up to changing one setting, and youre done. It's not. Im glad that someone is finally getting the idea.
I assume that ppl who disagree with me didn't tried it, because they are overrating the value of advantage that BC gives. Acting like BC is some kind of "game changer" while it's not, it's more of a feeling-thing that just pure faster gearchange.
Yes, im using fastest button rate possible. I don't understand why i should put handicap on myself. If i can make something that will help me, why should i resign of that. Do you on purpose make your setup worse, to be more fair? E.g. you've joined league, you worked really hard to setup your car perfectly (same as i worked REALLY hard to be able to make good use of BC), then it seems like other guys didn't work as hard, and they are losing a lot of time, due to worse setup. It seem like you will pretty much dominate that league. Do you put extra restriction, or change your setup, to match the pace of other guys? You worked hard, they didn't. So you should utilize your hard work, and get what you deserved. And i think this is what you do, same as i do with BC (expect BC gains are really small, or even doesn't exists on particular tracks).
I bet that if you've tried BC, then you didn't do it until you was getting better times. It seems to me like you just tried it, couldn't get any better than with AC, simply because you didn't invest the time and work it require to get the effects, but you saw that gear change is faster, and now you are spreading thoughts, that BC gives you so much advantage with near 0 invest. That what it looks like. I really suggest you, again, to try BC until you'll master it (probably will need from few days, up to a week, to see any effects), and then come here, and post the miserable difference between your best time using AC and BC. And then maybe your eyes will open, and you will see how much overrated it is. Or maybe im wrong, and you tested BC properly, so PLEASE prove me wrong, tell me what car did you tested, which track, and how big the difference was? And also tell me how much time it required you to be able to "exploit" the button-clutch, and how hard (or easy) it was...
PS. As i said, im sure that ppl that don't agree with me didn't tested it, because no one told me how much the difference is. And i tested it, i know the difference... And if you would test it properly, then you would see the tiny tenth or two of second gain, achieved after over a dozen painful and boring hours of hard practicing, while still not feeling comfortable with it. After that, all that bitching, about so small difference, which took so much energy and time to get it, is just stupid. It's like freaking obssesion.
And there's also one thing that bothers me. If theres a server which allows BC, or even worse, a league that allows it, then most of AC guys have so much pain in the ass, complaining all the time, forcing to ban it, sometimes even insulting BC-users. But what happens when theres server or league (most of them) with banned BC? Well BC-guy coming to such server or league, gets spectated after trying to join, turns off BC and that's it, no bitching, no insults, no forcing anyone to let him use BC. At least that's what i do, because i know BC gain is minor, and i've never saw any other BC-users to have a problem in such situation.
Inherently, long time ago, there was nothing wrong with it. More so when the button speed was limited to max 6.00 (10.00 today). AC and BC were more or less balanced back then (ease of use & consistency vs. difficulty & inconsistency).
Today all talks about wanting to use BC as a replacement for overpriced axis gear fall apart because the balance is long gone. As a former long time BC user I can testify that using it today makes winning effortless compared to AC or H-shifter. Absolutely everyone who says they are using it because of realistic feeling or whatever are lying. But it gets worse.
There are two ways to manipulate BC behavior is such a way you can't detect it easily. First is creating a macro that presses gear shift button and clutch simultaneously, negating all of the little difficulty it had over AC to somewhat balance it. The other one is increasing the button rate far beyond maximum 10 (without game going OOS). The more competitive the environment the worse it gets.
Situations with axis clutch used without H-shifter with clutch speeds exceeding that of a button are also present. These are very easy to detect at least.
Simplest and best way to handle this and maintain healthy competition environment is to force AC and allow axis clutch only in conjunction with H-shifter. Ban everything else. Forget the poll. Voting results are worthless when the subject matter is unknown to most.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that AC is currently un-exploitable because of the way it's implemented. Even if you tried to, you'd still be limited to hard-coded limit of AC. To my knowledge it's free of exploits. I believe it's the same for axis & H-shifter combo because I haven't yet spotted any shenanigans with that particular combination. Not 100% sure though, my sample base are only four people all of which are clean. This EDIT amendment is to give more context to the subject.
Well i don't know how anyone can say that easy of use & consistency vs. difficulty & inconsistency is balanced. It's clearly not, if the button clutch is more difficult and inconsistent but doesn't give anything in return, then it's clearly worse, and it's not balanced. That's why it gives you slightly better speed, so you can be faster. Definitely: ease of use & consistency vs. (difficulty & inconsistency)+speed gain, is closer to balanced. If you've choose harder route, then you have to get some kind of reward for it, you have to get something in return.
First of all, im not lying. Back in time when i was using AC, i was curious about clutch, and i've find out that i can map it to a button. I was cruising with it offline, and it felt for me a bit closer to reality, since i can stall the engine, i have to use it to change gears, etc. So i started using it, and it took me quite some time to learn it. I didn't started using it just to be fast. I wasn't checking how much faster i was after i've learned it, because i wasnt faster at all, or didn't even noticed that. At that time i didn't even know that it's considered faster, and all that drama about it. Now i can notice that im faster, and i can measure how much faster i am, and it isn't impressing in any way. Also i don't agree that winning with BC is effortless. It is not like that, that if you're using BC, then you can easly beat all the other ppl with AC. You have some advantage, but it isn't that big. AC guys still can beat you. Noticable difference between drivers can be seen on the really highest level. Like if you take one alien with BC and one alien with AC, then you can see a difference, because at this point, they are driving both consistent, smooth etc. so the disadvantage of BC (difficulty and inconsistent) doesn't exist, because driver can compensate it (but it takes skill and time = EFFORT). But the advantage of BC sure exists, and if it's 0.15-0.2s, then it is most likely, that such laptimes are simply impossible with AC. Seems unfair? Well BC-user had to give extra effort, time and practice compared to AC-user, and even with mastered BC, it still requires a little bit more of each driver aspect during the race. So it would seem unfair, if driver who had to give more effort, doesn't get anything in return. If we would lower the button rate to a level, that AC and BC are exactly same speed, then we can start banning AC, because it's unbalanced and unfair. Easier to drive, and not require any additional training and practice. So you can drive more consistent, and make fewer errors with absolutely 0 additional effort from you. That would be unbalanced and unfair. That would make winning with AC effortless compared to BC and H-shifter...
I will not talk about axis clutch things you wrote here, since i never had opportunity to try it, so i don't even know how it is. But about the BC, i totally agree with you here. I don't know about increasing the button rate beyond 10, but i think i saw a lot of ppl using macros, and that should be the reason to ban BC in leagues or servers. But the fact that some ppl use BC in illegal way, and also the fact that it's even possible (probably easly possible), shouldn't be reason to call BC unbalanced. But sure can, and even should, be reason to ban it in leagues, since it's the only way to get rid of that, and it's probably hard to prove that someone is using it (i mean illegal use of BC). That's why im not trying to force unbanning BC in any way. It can stay banned, im fine with that, i have no problems driving with AC. Im just trying, to stop the precedent of being impolite to BC-users, and underestimate their achievements, as i think i've explained in my previous posts.
PS. You were like my idol back in demo, 6-7y ago. I was learning from your HL replays of XFG, and im not sure if FBM too. Also i was using your setup and it all gave me a lot. It's a shame for me that i have to dissagree with you :|. I hope that this would not make you hate me
Now this discussion should be finished, since experienced driver like NILEX came and said how it really is, he has used both for a long time, and im damn sure he knows the difference (some say it almost nothing ... LIES)
Before you post, you should test it by yourself. You are making statements about topics, you didn't even tested. At this point only one person gave exact value of difference at particular track and car, and this person is me. Of course Nilex is far more experienced than me, but i think that my 10 years with LFS, driving almost half of that time with AC and now im also driving both, is enough to write here about it. Im even, as i said couple of times, doing test directly focused on finding the exact value of difference. You did nothing to find out how big difference there is, and you dare to call me a liar. You've just showed again how ignorant you are. Im trying to prove my statements, giving constructive arguments, defending my opinion on the topic. You just come here calling me liar and earlier on, at the server, calling me bc kicker, and being impolite and arrogant in general. FYI, after you've leaved the server few days ago, just after i've beaten your time, i've proved everything i wrote here, by doing same laptimes with AC, but you didn't saw it...
EDIT
You are just the kind of person im writing about in all of my posts here. You're focused more on insulting BC-users, make them look bad and stupid, and make their achievements meaningless, than actually on bannig BC. And this is what im trying to deal with all the time. I don't care about banned BC. I care about making me look bad, and acting like im shitty driver even when im doing good, because im using BC. Or even more, trying to make me look like a bad person, because i dare to use BC, and it's pure evil apparently. At this point im starting to be disappointed with lfs community.
First of all, I think Nilex could not have said it better , I personaly agree 100% with that post.
You look always bad when you use bc that's the thing. You know, I also like to drive far more on BC, because we are way faster compared to everyone else if we use it and also because the clutch doesn't overheat, but it is not fair. Soo.. I should only use bc against you, becouse you just cannot adapt, right? Maybe not. Why should We have the advantage when 50-90% of the people doens't have it. It is only going to make already unfair game even more unfair. You see, the gap between the very top and the rest is going to just increase. If you really love pressing ur little clutch button, do that but make the button speed was limited to max 6.00 or enable ac as well.
In a way I feel quite sad that LFS has this kind of issue wich makes such big separation between racers.
I don't think anybody wins by blaming or labelling others whose opinion does not match, let's just open the facts and live with it.
I think devs should provide re-designed clutch implementation in the next big release.
So far, since no "serious"/professional events will be organized on my server, I will just listen the vote results and keep the BC settings following it.
Im still missing one fact: Somebody said BC does not cause clutch heating? Is that 100% true? Lets take UFR for example, that car is a real clutch burner. Does BC save UFR driver from any clutch problems? That interests me, since I would like very much to organize UFR/UFJ/UFB events on my serv.
Another thing: Could somebody give a link, where I can have more information about these BC macros? That trick sounds really worrying and may affect my decision about BC usage on my server.
As i wrote in my post fragment that you've quoted. I have no problems in banned BC, i fully understand. I have problems in attitude that BC-users are getting from a lot of ppl. As far as it is now, it is part of a game. And if it's needed it can be banned on servers and leagues, AND IM FINE WITH IT (how many times did i say that?). Only unpleasant, impolite, and often aggresive attidues are bothering me.
I think that this conversation should be finished, since i've wrote what i wanted, and most understood what their wanted, or counter argued with just saying that im wrong without any proving, often being blind to my earlier arguments. It seems like most of ppl doesn't understand what im trying to say, but im glad, that there were someone who understood, and agreed with me.
I think that the ability to map clutch to a button, should be removed by devs. Not because it gives SO MUCH speed (but apparently no one knows exactly how much, and im lying saying i've checked that), but because it will stop exuses, and impolite comments. Just want to add from myself that arguing with me that BC is so much faster than i think, argued by ppl who have never used BC efficiently and/or have never tested the exact difference themselves, even tho im using it and i've tested it, is more than ignorant... But anyway, forget about it. I feel like losing my time, everyone starts to consider me as a buttonclutcher that want his button clutch allowed. You may think what you want, im done here. I hope devs will remove BC, so this shit will be finally over...
Btw I was using Search and found this; Scawen has been reminded of this issue one year ago. Should we still send him more feedback about this? Does he read this thread?
I think you should ban BC, i don't want to meet with toxicity of BADLVBOY again, when BC will be allowed.
And to answer your question about clutch wear. BC is reducing clutch wear, but it's not like it isn't problem anymore. On the example of UFR@your layout: on 3 laps race i had to lift everytime anyway. I didn't drive UFR much, but i think no matter if you have BC or AC, you will have to lift in UFR, but ofc it is most likely that you'll burn your clutch w AC than BC. The other example is XFG@BL1. On 5 laps race, i don't have to lift at all with BC, maybe even couple laps more. But if race is little bit longer, like 10 laps or more, then i will have to lift, but don't have to do it everytime. Like i can do first 5-8 laps without lifting, and then start to lift, so my clutch will not die. Basically the difference in clutch wear is bigger than difference in speed
cmon ANICI (razor), i dont mind, keep using it guys ... really, i'll probably take a break from lfs anyways, gonna stop annoying/trolling people
I just dont get why you still keep replying and trying to find arguments, we all know the truth
kk, really, relax and keep hitting that button, cya on track
PEACE
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btw lucaf, i tried that macro thing, but somehow it didnt wanted to work properly with my wheel, it kept double shifting (maybe because my wheel is old) but other than that, macro thing would probably be even higher advantage than bc, since its consistent, you just hit the paddle and it upshifts/downshifts together with clutch, you dont have to hit any useless buttons
in my opinion the decision should be very simple - ban button clutch, like it used to be earlier on the server and keep it that way. the field in lfs is already quite unequal and this could make the situation somewhat better. even though it takes some time to learn the craft it's still a rather big and unnecessary advantage from what I've seen from my own usage and from others
@razor
The small increase of BC difficultly is not enough to compensate for gain in time over AC. It really is effortless. No balance here. I also didn't see that right away, it took a while.
@whoever
EDIT: Just read some more posts so I figure to share my input why some BC people get flak over using it. Even though I'm reluctant to go off-topic.
I don't think I ever saw someone complain about slow guy using it, only the fast guys gets it. I even doubt the slow ones are using it for the speed gain in-fact but more for the immersion. Fast guys don't care about them cause they're not in their sphere of influence and the other slow ones using AC probably don't even know or care. And clutch method is hardly deciding factor 'back there'. So I come back to fast persons using it. Noticed two reasons over the years:
1) Purposely ignoring the clear speed advantage it gains and behaving like they dominate the grid. Instead of being humble, make you lap and stfu about it if you really have to go this route. This gets old real fast and naturally causes discontent because it's malignant. I tolerate it coz kids are kids, one day they'll grow. What can you do.
2) At the top of the food chain where one tenth of a second makes a difference of several grid spots, weather they BC'ing coz 'immersion', or it's simply better for them for whatever reason, is so obviously wrong that one should not need words to explain. Not necessarily malignant but very unsportsmanlike.
First group does it in a bad way then rubs it in, the other doesn't rub but may or may not be purposely using it only to gain cheap advantage (if they are genuinely fooling themselves it's about immersion). So you bet your ass you'll get flak over it. Not all of you, just the nasty ones. Weather you're aware you are or not.
With time usability of BC will become as "effortless" as BC.
Time gained during AC will be lost in overheat/clutch slip/overrun,
and time gained with the higher control of BC will be lost with the slower engagement of the clutch.
Whoever says "this is quicker than that" ; get to know both AC and BC well enough to use them both extremely smoothly and quickly. Not just one time off for a short comparision. It doesn't do justice that way, because you won't be able to exploit each, and get a fair result.
As for button rate, I use 6.05, and I have no idea who uses full 10.
To those out there still argueing,
If you are good with BC and crap with AC, get good with AC.
If you are good with AC, and crap with BC, get good with BC.
You have only yourself to blame when you defend a side - I'd rather say enable both (AC and BC), and let's end it.
