Scawen:

I'm really glad to see you adding some features to things like the AutoX editor! I know from experience that being able to add features to things that you are passionate about is a really a rewarding feeling.

Quote from Scawen :

But I do understand that there one thing missing - the object you are about to place with the O key isn't visible (unless you press CTRL+C first). So it's harder to place it with the precision you might want.

Hit the nail on the head here. I love the copy, cut and paste changes, but removing the ability to see an object before placing it ruins the editor for me. Add's way too many unneeded steps to place an object with precision.

Also, is there any way of allowing us to select more objects at once or even an unlimited amount?

Here are some more fixes and updates for the layout editor.

You should find the O key seems similar to how it worked in the old version. In reality it's not the same at all. Because in the old version, you had BOTH the objects 'in hand' selected and the world objects were still selected at the same time, which caused various problems and limitations that users would learn to work around.

In today's version, after pressing O, only the objects 'in hand' are selected. If you want the newly placed world objects to be selected, as in yesterday's version, use PASTE which is CTRL+V.

You can also switch between the 'in hand' and 'world objects' selection styles by using COPY (CTRL+C).

So...

World objects selected, press COPY -> objects now selected in hand
Clipboard objects selected, press COPY -> it's really UN-COPY - reselects the world objects


Changes from 0.6R13 to 0.6R14 :

Layout editor :

Place objects (O) key is now equivalent to PASTE then COPY
COPY key is now reversible so you can reselect the copied objects
FIX : Sometimes marshall type could not be selected before placing
FIX : Real world objects could still be selected after a full clear

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/92067

Here's a description of the new editor changes and the reasons behind the changes: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/92152

Feels more natural now, as if I were using the old layout editor with new features. Great job!

Wishlist and not a bug: In edit mode, Ctrl+right click currently has the same behavior as a normal left click. Would it be possible/simple to add the ability to select a group of objects by drawing a rectangle around them, like many editors?

I think physical cut/copy/paste buttons could be helpful. Ctrl+C after copying to re-select objects is a nice feature that may go unnoticed. If buttons are added, the [copy] button could say [re-select] when applicable.

Quote from bobloblaw :

Wishlist and not a bug: In edit mode, Ctrl+right click currently has the same behavior as a normal left click. Would it be possible/simple to add the ability to select a group of objects by drawing a rectangle around them, like many editors?

This is often requested and I'm thinking about a really simple version of this as I know it can be tedious to click several buttons.

So I'm thinking of a rectangle select in screen space (X and Y aligned with the monitor) and you would just pull that rectangle and when you let go it would select the buttons visible within the box.

We are currently limited to 30 objects because that's how many can fit in one packet (and I won't be changing that in this version though I do have thoughts for the future about that). So I suppose it could select the 30 objects whose buttons are nearest to the centre of the rectangle when you let go of the mouse button.

Questions remaining in my mind...

I'm sure we need to use a CTRL or SHIFT key in conjunction with a mouse button to pull the rectangle. For some reason CTRL sounds better to me. I'm not certain whether the box select should use the left or right mouse button. What is it like in similar programs? I see in the Windows interface you can use left or right button to draw a box to select icons. No CTRL key makes a fresh selection, CTRL adds / subtracts from selection but that's not available to us as we can't allow 'no key' box select as all such possibilities are used for camera positioning.

It seems to me that "add to selection" would be a dangerous default and is more complicated. So I'm leaning towards the simplest system, with "fresh box selection" as the only function. If your selection isn't quite right after doing the box select, you can select or deselect individual buttons.

I like to keep it simple at this point because there really is a lot of other work to get back to and this editor stuff has been longer than expected. So, assuming CTRL key plus mouse drag is the way to go, we still have the one question: Left or Right mouse button?

Left feels more natural.

Plans about able to rebind those buttons in future? ( EDIT: Hmmh... or not sure if really need, when giving 2nd thought of it. Perhaps I was going too deep in mind. )

Quote from Scawen :

Left or Right mouse button?

IMO, left mouse button is more natural as it is more universal.
For example, left will select text in a browser and right won't. Also, right is usually used as an alternative function, whereas in this case the ctrl+click selection would be primary.

Is it necessary to choose left or right mouse button? Could both serve the same purpose?

Additionally, is a rectangle the best way to select? Hovering, over the selection buttons with a circle might also work well.

The trouble with allowing both buttons to work is that when a new function is required at a later date, the 'spare' one is no longer available. Or you think it is then discover there are upset people who always used the one that you thought no-one used.

So that's why I'm aiming for least buttons and maximum similarity with other software.

That makes sense. Then I'm also in favor of left mouse button. Although I feel you shouldn't adapt to the psychorigid people but the other way around

Is there any way to get the old layout editor back? I'm really disappointed with the regress here and, if I may add, I do not understand why something needs to be changed after 15 years, especially when it's something, nobody ever complained about.
I've certainly placed over 100,000 objects with it over the time and the only wish I ever had was a bigger choice of objects.

Quote :

Is there any way to get the old layout editor back? I'm really disappointed with the regress here and, if I may add, I do not understand why something needs to be changed after 15 years, especially when it's something, nobody ever complained about.
I've certainly placed over 100,000 objects with it over the time and the only wish I ever had was a bigger choice of objects.

Have you tried it in debt? There is a long list of obvious improvements you would notice, especially if you use the autocross editor a lot.

Many limitations were lifted and user-friendliness has been improved substantially. What in particular disappoints you?

Scawen, is it intentional to clear the selection in hand (PMO_SELECTION or editor selection) when you press CTRL+C and no objects were added previously? You get "No object is selected to copy" and the selection is cleared.

Quote from chucknorris :

Is there any way to get the old layout editor back? I'm really disappointed with the regress here and, if I may add, I do not understand why something needs to be changed after 15 years, especially when it's something, nobody ever complained about.
I've certainly placed over 100,000 objects with it over the time and the only wish I ever had was a bigger choice of objects.

That seems to me a really pointless comment.

With all the improvements and nothing worse at all, why would you want to revert?

To be be constructive, please tell me what issue you have found, in case there is something I have overlooked.

How I see it, it basically allows everything you could do before, but adds new functions and solves some problems.

Did you read the explanation thread?
https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/92152

Quote from sicotange :

Many limitations were lifted and user-friendliness has been improved substantially. What in particular disappoints you?

Well, for instance, you cannot properly move an object anymore. Either you press m and hope it will appear in the right spot or you have to cut it via ctrl+x before.

Another example is that has become a lot harder to select an object within a cluster of objects as you don't see what object you have actually selected. An implicit ctrl+c upon selection could solve that.

Some real-world example:


You can see I've selected an object, but its impossible to tell which.

-Possible solution 1: Implicit "send to selection"-action. So i have the object "in hand" and see what it is.

-Possible solution 2: Mark the selected object visually, i.e. with an outline or let it blink. So I can tell whether its a wall, floor, or line.

-Possible solution 3: Like option 2 but ignore z-buffer. So it appears even if it's covered by other objects.

In your example, you know that the selection button is in the middle of chalk lines so you know that it is the first of the 3 highlighted.

Additionally, you can adjust Z to be sure. If the selection buttons are compacted things do get confusing either way (screenshot attached) and having the object in hand won't help much in this case but you can always press CTRL+C twice.

I don't see how this was better in 0.6R

Quote from sicotange :

.. and having the object in hand won't help much ..

Yes it would. I mean that's the original behaviour. Back then, I would have clicked on one of the 3 dots and if it was the line, I would have had a 2nd line in my hand, if it was the slab, I would have had the slab in my hand.
It was very easy to pick the object that I want to move. Then, I could easily move it or align it with something else and just press 'm'.
But now, selecting things has become worse and moving too.

I have to agree that moving objects - especially if you're not 100% sure you actually want to move it yet - is a lot more complicated.

You either have to:

• ctrl+c, place a new one where you want and hope you can properly select the old one (and not the new one) if it's a tiny adjustment, which I can see being a real pain in some cases. This would be more of a nightmare if it's a multi-object selection as you'd then have to re-select every one of the old objects.
  
• or commit to moving it by doing ctrl+x and lose the original position if you can't find a better one.
  

Compare with the old behaviour: Click (immediately seeing if it's the correct selection or not), play around finding a better position, M to commit the new one or do nothing to give up.

An undo (ctrl+z) would help in the second case (and probably in other areas too), but even so it's more clunky than before. Unfortunately, I haven't thought of a nice solution that would work with the new split selection behaviour yet.


I'm yet to have a proper play with the rest of the new system, so I'm not going to say its worse in general, but I can see the move issue being a problem especially when trying to tweak "curved" sections where you have to be very precise and it's very easy to make things worse or make mistakes.


Edit:

Quote from chucknorris :

-Possible solution 2: Mark the selected object visually, i.e. with an outline ... So I can tell whether its a wall, floor, or line.

This would be really nice actually - it's something that a few games do with shaders. No idea how long it'd take to do however

Quote from UnknownMaster21 :

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/90309

And to topic, despite no real complaints about old editor, it does not mean it could not be any better.

( Sorry, I did press Quote button instead of edit )

Quote from chucknorris :

It was very easy to pick the object that I want to move. Then, I could easily move it or align it with something else and just press 'm'.

Quote from Degats :

I have to agree that moving objects - especially if you're not 100% sure you actually want to move it yet - is a lot more complicated.

Would it be helpful if the M key was allowed to work after you have pressed CTRL+C?

I haven't tried it yet but it seems possible. As you know, the CTRL+C is reversible because the editor knows which objects were copied. So it seems that in those cases where you have a tricky move as you described, you would then be able to see the originals and the new position at the same time before pressing M.

Quote from Scawen :

Would it be helpful if the M key was allowed to work after you have pressed CTRL+C?

I haven't tried it yet but it seems possible. As you know, the CTRL+C is reversible because the editor knows which objects were copied. So it seems that in those cases where you have a tricky move as you described, you would then be able to see the originals and the new position at the same time before pressing M.

Yeah, I think that would help

R15:

An outline is now drawn around the selected objects
M key can now be used with clipboard objects (select then CTRL+C)
Multiple object rectangle select CTRL+drag with left mouse button

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/92067