Quote from Hankstar :

Israel started deliberately destroying Lebanon's civilian infrastructure including bridges, roads, fuel depots, hospitals, airports, apartment blocks etc (defined as "collective punishment" and a war crime under International Law and the Geneva Conventions),

For me this is the crux of the issue. Numerous historical precedents have been set, the most relevent perhaps going back to the bombing of cities during the second world war. Modern warfare is about more than soldiers facing off against each other, it's about destroying your enemy's ability to feed and care for its population, or as the military cynically expresses is "destroying the will to fight"

Israel does have the right to defend its territiory, I doubt any of us would argue with that. What Israel does not have the right to do is economically devastate its neighbour in the manner in which it has, particularly given that its stated enemy is not the actual governemt of that neighbour but a minority political force within it.

The international community has spectacularly failed to fulfill its humanitarian obligations to the Lebanese people by failing to insist forcefully if necessary that Israel deploys a force which is proportionate to the enemy which it faces, and that said force does not simply use its airpower to go after the Lebabnese infrastructure as a way of isolating their enemy. Had they done so [and had the Israelis actually agreed] I doubt there would have been a conflict on this scale, since as has been pointed out it is questionable whether there is the political will in Israel to sustain large numbers of casualties for the sake of pushing a few Katusha batteries back a few miles.

Now unfortunately it appears that it will be necessary for NATO/UN troops to risk their lives on foreign soil yet again, and for the Lebanese to concede hundreds of square miles of their land in order to appease the Israelis, and give them a "buffer zone" betweent them and their enemy. IMHO if thei Israelis want a buffer zone that badly then they can evacute northern Israel to a distance of 50 miles from their border and create one.It is the Israelis who until they are forced to abandon the agressive fortress mentality which is ingrained into their entire social fabric will continue to be the thorn in the side of the Arabic world, and whilst they are not responsible for every war/atrocity and do not validate the existence of Arab extremism/terrorism they will continue to be a potential flashpoint for as long as the international community panders to them and continues to prop them up and make them the strongest military power in the region.

Hezbollah has not used UN positions as shields. The UN post that was attacked (killing all UN personnel who were there at the time) was well known to the Israelis and was nohwere near Hezbollah positions. Also, that UN post made repeated calls to Israeli command, informing them of their position in the hour leading up the attack which destroyed the post. Given that Israel knew exactly where this position was (it's been there since the 80s - since the last invasion in fact) and that it was not near any Hezbollah forces, I can only assume that either a) Israel's military destroyed it deliberately or b) they are utterly clueless.

As for Hezbollah firing rockets at civilians - I won't defend it because it's indefensible. I never said Hezbollah were blameless and had clean hands. But their rocket attacks began after Israel's air raids - after the destruction of Lebanon's airport and other civilian or "soft" targets.

With regard to Hezbollah using Lebanese as human shields - I can't confirm or deny that, except to say that the sheer volume and spread of Lebanese civilian deaths (800+ starting from south of the Litani river all the way north towards the border, from small villages and towns to half of Beirut's suburbs - including Christian suburbs which would have no links or particular sympathy for the Shia Muslim Hezbollah militia - until now) has been far too great as to blame more than a small number of them on proximity to Hezbollah positions.

I think some people should stop believing whatever breakfast radio news tells them about this situation, and perhaps do some independent research. That's not really aimed at anyone in particular, as media all over the world have not been giving us the whole story on basically anything since 9/11 - but that was actually true long before 9/11, I just started taking a lot more interest after that.

edit: well said Smax.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Is anybody else utterly exhasperated by the failure of their government to do anything at all when faced with a country that is not only willingly bombing innocent civilians, but also aid workers and neutral observers?

YES!!!

I can't believe the lack of condemnation of Israel.. not just over this most recent catalogue of attrocities, but over all of Israel's border/occupation policies for the last 30+ years. WHEN will Israel finally be held to account?? They're perpetually in breach of international law, and the international community does nothing but support them.. not just the US, with their financial hand-outs, but EVERY other nation who does nothing but watch.

Quote from Funnybear :

If my countries borders where like that of Lebenon I am sure some of my friends would be tempted to hurl a few rocks at the oppressors.

Whether you're a politician, commentator, reporter or just some guy on the street, it's very difficult to say anything critical of Israel without being labelled anti-Semitic, regardless of how calmly and logically you present your argument, and irrespective of how well grounded your research is.

I think this photograph, taken in Lebanon at around the halfway point of this conflict, speaks volumes of the respect held by the Israeli leaders for life in general. Notice the accuracy. You'd think the American hardware these Israeli cowboys are flying around in would be able to pick out a big fat Red Cross on a white background, wouldn't you? As a Red Crosser myself I'm meant to be as neutral as Switzerland, but this really makes my blood boil...

Quote from Breizh :

Hezbolla has been using Lebanese people (as well as a UN guardpost) as shields, and has fired a sizeable amount of those rocket propelled explosives on civilians.

And israel has fired countless amounts of targeted laser guided missiles to supposed Hezbollah positions and the country's infrastructure and by doing so killed and wounded 31 times more Lebanese civilians than Hezbollah.


I do not condone the use of UN/Red Cross/ambulance buildings/vehicles as cover. But I do understand why they do it, because of all the unmanned spy-drones patrolling in the sky all the time. You have to understand that Hezbollah is in serious firepower and equipment disadvantage, israel on the other hand has all the military support of the US. Some even say they have planned this attack with US long time ago to stir up middle east from the first opportunity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5eBrfrWoTk Seymour Hersh (the one who mainstreamed the Abu Gahrib story) of the New Yorker on CNN about it.

Quote from Krane :

I do not condone the use of UN/Red Cross/ambulance buildings/vehicles as cover. But I do understand why they do it...

Whoah.. hang on.. before we launch off down that road of rights and wrongs, let's first establish that they HAVE done it at all. That hasn't been shown, only stated, and so far hasn't been supported with evidence, has it?

Just as can be seen checking haaretz.com, payback time has started inside Israel. While it's accepted the majority of people of Israel supported the retaliation, it's even more clear, reading Haaretz, that the general perception there is that the war was lost. There has been far more international condemnation than I expected, up till now. Not as much as I desire, but more then I hoped for.
Ran Ha Cohen's opinion on antiwar.com is very, very grim, and should be taken at least as an advice and as a call for attention.
Meanwhile, Hezbollah's popularity keeps growing in the Middle East.
I'm still eager to see some political leaders to be indicted for what they approved and authorised, but I doubt we will ever see this.

Quote from SamH :

Whoah.. hang on.. before we launch off down that road of rights and wrongs, let's first establish that they HAVE done it at all. That hasn't been shown, only stated, and so far hasn't been supported with evidence, has it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS93Y4DVvHU

I'm fairly sure that legit.

Quote from Krane :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS93Y4DVvHU

I'm fairly sure that legit.

Cheers for that! I'd not seen or read anything to support that claim. There's definitely "use" of the UN ambulance by Hizbollah, there.

Quote from Krane :

....Some even say they have planned this attack with US long time ago to stir up middle east from the first opportunity.

LOL They (meaning us and Israel) Planned this attack in advance?
ROLF! Yep they got us red-handed there guy. After we ditched the weather machine that caused the tsunami, we invented an anti-social brainwashing device that makes normal law abiding people go nuts and kidnap soldiers during a rocket barrage..... Oh yeah, we actually used the space shuttle to move the Sun a bit closer to the planet to cause global warming.
Any cats get hurt where y'all live? That was probably a CIA experiment gone wrong.

Now since EVERYONE seems to want to rag on Israel for that bit a nonsense... Uh just WHAT would Y'ALL do in similar circumstances?
Impose some sort of "sanction" or something? LOL y'all probably would
just be content to blame the US for everything, huh?

You have a point though, I also don't think George Jr. is handling this very well either... but in a slightly different way.

I dunno I guess After the first attack ( oh wait, Israel attacked first - right???) the Israelis could've just got entry visas at the border and
went door to door asking people to please quit shooting rockets at them.
Yeah, that would've worked...Yeah that and put pictures of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers on Lebanese milk cartons.

Well enough of this from me & remember:
If you stub your toe, fail a test or are just having a bad hair day,
blame an American. That's what we're here for. It's all good

Alright, let's say it wasn't planned in advance. Let's say it was an instant, overnight reaction from Israel and not something that would take several days, weeks or perhaps months to plan. Let's also imagine that the billions of YOUR tax dollars Israel gets from the US each year is for building libraries and not purchasing F-16s. Let's further stretch the boundaries of reality and suggest that it's just a coincidence that America always - always - sides with Israel (by using its veto power, abstaining from voting etc) every time a World Court judgement or UN Resolution goes against it, even if every other country on the entire planet votes unanimously the other way.

If you think blowing the crap out of an entire country (which was not responsible for Hezbollah's actions - Hezbollah does not rule Lebanon! It's an independent political and paramilitary organisation), destroying civilian airports, cratering highways, demolishing bridges, attacking convoys of refugees (after making them homeless), attacking ambulances, laying waste to whole suburbs and villages and killing 800+ civilians including women and children in the process, all in response to 3 dead soldiers and 2 captured is just some "bit a nonsense", then you've been listening to your government's bullshit for way too long. For the record, Hezbollah made it known they wanted to exchange those captured soldiers with Lebanese political prisoners but they were ignored. They had done similar exchanges before. I think Ehud Olmert just wanted a military victory to make himself look good. Considering it failed dismally and his opponent, Ben Netanyahu, is at 58% in the latest Israeli poll, his days may be numbered.

Yes, the US cops a lot of shit from the rest of the world, some deserved and some not. In the case of Israel, and America's consistent, knee-jerk support for whatever Israel does and to whom, it's pretty clear that America definitely deserves some criticism. Your government tells you that the world is full of people that are "anti-American" (wtf is that btw? I've never heard of an "anti-Australian") and "hate your freedoms". Well, Australia, France, Sweden, Canada, New Zealand and a hundred other nations all have the same freedoms and noone seems to hate those nations. Noone's burning the Greek flag in the streets of Baghdad. It's time for Americans to stop listening to that constant stream of manure that flows from Washington DC, step back, be objective and ask themselves "why do they really hate us?" It's time to start making the distinction between loyalty to your country and loyalty to your government. Nixon broke the rules and got what he deserved. Can anyone honestly say that Sheriff Dumbass, the Connecticut Texan, has done anything less than Nixon? Seems he's done a boatload more law-breaking than Tricky Dick would have dreamed of...

I can only suggest you try and understand why people look critically at America when these things happen, and try and understand this discussion before throwing your 22lb sledgehammer around. Things are never as simple and "good and evil" as NBC makes them seem and a little independent reading can go a long way. That's if Fatherland Security hasn't banned the internet or books there yet

Quote from Hankstar :

billions of YOUR tax dollars Israel gets from the US each year

Excuse me? Israel does not get any money from the US, that's total BS.

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Quote from th84 :

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

You do realize that that is only $9.50 a year per US Citizen.... Right? That is $0.80 per month. $0.02 per day. AND, I just picked the biggest number on that page you linked too, and calculated between the years of 1949 and 1997. I mean, if you believe the liberals that there is a $3 trillion dollar deficit, then israel is only 4% of that. And, what's wrong with having an ally? In the past few centuries, Israel has made many more contributions to the modern world than any of the Muslim countries that border it have.

Your public debt's much more than 3 trillion. Don't believe me though, look it up. Read those links. You don't have to be a "liberal" to do that. When "Bring 'em on" Bush was elected, you guys actually had a surplus given to you by Clinton and his godless liberals. It's gone and it only took 5 years and 2 wars. You and your kids will have to pay that off. You ok with that? Yep, Israel may be a drop in the bucket...but they've had the ability to be self-sufficient for ages now. Why do they keep taking your money? I guess building giant walls to keep Arabs out is more expensive than I thought...

How about the 300+ billion they've blown on occupying Iraq? You ok with that? The 2600+ dead US kids in uniforms? All for WMD that weren't there and a link between al-Qaeda (formed with CIA help to kick the Soviets out of Afghanistan) and Saddam (happily supported by the US until he got off the leash in 1991) that never existed...I should give you credit, you're more tolerant of incompetence and idiocy than I am.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

You do realize that that is only $9.50 a year per US Citizen.... Right? That is $0.80 per month. I mean, if you believe the liberals that there is a $3 trillion dollar deficit, then israel is only 4% of that.

Those stats are ten year's old. It doesnt say "cost to citizen's".. it say's "cost to taxpayer's". tbh, Even if it is, its not worth 9.50 /yr to me. I'd rather spend that money helping re-build New Orlean's or any of our own issue's. I was really just saying that it's not BS.

Get rid of oil boy and bring the democrats back!!

For those interested in knowing more about the "who started" thing:

Hizbollah's anti-aircraft fire has a clear target: Israeli fighter jets that regularly enter Lebanon's airspace, flying over the entire country from south to north as if it were theirs. The intrusion flights started in October 2000, just five months after the Israeli withdrawal, following Hizbollah's kidnap of three Israeli soldiers at the Shaba Farms. Last November, based on Lebanese sources, Israeli journalist Daniel Sobelman reported how up to seven Israeli jets at a time were flying in the skies of Beirut, drawing smoke-pictures over the Lebanese capital and repeatedly breaking the sound barrier in what Lebanese citizens conceived as humiliating and enraging provocations. Hizbollah leader Nasrallah said the anti-aircraft fire would cease as soon as the Israeli flights stopped; Israeli army spokesman refused to comment on its operations (Ha'aretz, 26.11.2002).

Now who is the aggressor here, who is the terrorist? Sending fighter jets across the border is the most obvious violation of sovereignty. No country on earth would tolerate that. Hizbollah's ineffective flak is a totally legitimate and justified act of self-defence. Israel's accusation that Hizbollah aims its anti-aircraft fire so that the left-overs fall on Israeli towns – even if true – is chutzpah incarnate: if you break into my house, don't complain that the wall I shove you at is rough.

http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=665

I guess that, even if you don't want to believe a leftist just because it's a leftist, you can find the same information elsewhere. The violation of Lebanon's sovereignty is well testified.

Of course noone ever hears about these not-so-subtle provocations. It's almost always a case of "everyone's out to get us for no reason", when it's closer to the truth to say "well, these people are sick to death of us oppressing them and throwing our weight around with the rest of the world ignoring their pleas for a fair go, so they opened up a can of 'f-ck you' on us".

Quote from wheel4hummer :

In the past few centuries, Israel has made many more contributions to the modern world than any of the Muslim countries that border it have.

Oh? Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what Israel contributed to the world in, say, the 19th century?

The modern state of Israel as discussed in this thread was proclaimed on May 14th 1948, as is evidenced by this wikipedia page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

The Islamic world has contributed a great deal to the modern world's understanding of medicine, science and architecture amongst other things. Those contributions stretch back at least as far as the crusades of the the middle ages [the period of the crusades is normally defined as 11th -13th centuries]

I've found a couple of quotes which may be of interest.

Quote from David Ben Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel (1948) :

We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population...

Quote from Ariel Sharon, most recent Prime Minister of Israel :

It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion . . . that there can be no Zionism, colonisation or Jewish state without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands...

All of these policies are still being carried out to this day in Gaza and all the other illegal settlements.

I'm not sure if there's any ambiguity to be found in comments like these, and there are more where those came from. I'm wondering how people can believe Israel's constant claims of victimhood when it's been victimising its neighbours since its inception.

Meanwhile, back in Lebanon, the death toll climbs beyond 1300.

Can I just say . . . Wow!!!

I've just skimmed through this thread and although having not watched the vids and not read the longer posts as deeply as I should have I am amazed at the considered and above all educated posts that have been written here.

From what I can gather the latest is the cease fire but as is the want of the media, no bombs, no news. I will troll back through this thread when time permits and I can get sound working on this damn machine again. I am looking forward to being eduacted.

Hankstar, you truly have my respect for being a red crosser and the fact that we have had an israely giving us the 'other' side of the story as well is truly amazing.

I will return with a more considered post once I have taken on board what has been said.

My faith in true debating has been restored.

Thanks guys.

Quote from Funnybear :

Hankstar, you truly have my respect for being a red crosser

Ditto on that, totally. Hats off to you.

Cheers lads :up: keep the hats on though, I love my work

As for the standard of debate: this is what happens when LFS'ers aren't arguing about drifting or t3h noz