One could argue that if this can't be allowed then why the football mod should be allowed? Both are just silly things and have nothing to do with driving simulation but can't we have a little bit of stupid fun? (please do not remove the football
)One could argue that if this can't be allowed then why the football mod should be allowed? Both are just silly things and have nothing to do with driving simulation but can't we have a little bit of stupid fun? (please do not remove the football
)+1
Do you see the similarity with the suggestion - people would 'submit' their mod to the mods in progress forum then a large team of volunteers (you, or whoever wants to have a look at the new stuff) might want to:
- give their approval
- help with suggestions
- point out any legal issues
Maybe it really can't possibly work but I can tell you that if we have to decide behind closed doors, we are going to make mistakes. All I am saying is to put the process out in the open. I have a bad feeling about making these decisions behind closed doors with a limited team.
It's a pretty bad feeling being presented with a mod that looks suspiciously ripped, and clicking the "approve" button, purely because that user clicked the "original work" button.
I'm trying to help LFS be a place for creativity and imagination, not a repository for questionable mods and copyright rips.
The question is whether modding is allowed as a "car editor tool" or as a tool to make new quality mods for the game. If it is the former you're gonna have 1000 versions of basically same cars none of which will be used all that often. It'll just clutter the modding section because everyone can slightly modify a car and send it for review for laughs. This problem is exacerbated because this tool has just been released and people just wanna test it. Maybe have a grace period where you basically approve any mod for a few weeks, then remove the bad ones.
After which you could also bring about a small price for mods. Maybe a dollar for each mod that has been approved? This way people won't be sending a mod for review that they don't really like or care about.
When it comes to legal issues. If someone files a complaint, you can simply remove it from mods section and be done with it. No? With that being said I don't think they will pursue it all that much.
After which you could also bring about a small price for mods. Maybe a dollar for each mod that has been approved? This way people won't be sending a mod for review that they don't really like or care about.
When it comes to legal issues. If someone files a complaint, you can simply remove it from mods section and be done with it. No? With that being said I don't think they will pursue it all that much.
Is there a way for these content creators to also get paid for their work? I know there is a lot of mods for Assetto Corsa from I think "Race Sim Studio" that sell their creations to users. I think that giving these guys a platform to share their work for profit and create a store front for them will encourage people to make assesses for LFS. Furthermore you can do like a 10%-15% cut as the store owner to make all of the cost back of running this system for them, while also pushing people to helpfully by an S3 license in the first place.
In my opinion there is or there will be a lot of small tweaks like the mini 1300 which is very nice to drive by the way.
Different engine, rwd, maybe a project Binky 4wd! There should be some kind of tree or ordering, maybe force (or encourage) people work together or do some contest to choose best version. If there is ten different 1300 10 different 1400, it will be a mess with a huge dilution... Maybe also some classification like race, oval, drifting, drag, tractor pulling...
Different engine, rwd, maybe a project Binky 4wd! There should be some kind of tree or ordering, maybe force (or encourage) people work together or do some contest to choose best version. If there is ten different 1300 10 different 1400, it will be a mess with a huge dilution... Maybe also some classification like race, oval, drifting, drag, tractor pulling...
I've been in the AC modding community since ~2014, and this same question came up a lot, especially recently in the Race Department community, which as its problems with people ignoring the rules and clueless moderators, as anyone can upload new mods without prior review.
I'd guess that "have a valid WIP thread and link to it" would already filter out a lot of rubbish, and would give you, or whatever group of reviewers you establish, a quick information source. You just have to hope that modding culture on this forum develops in this direction, into one that values scratch work.
The Modding subforum is only open to S3 users, right?
I think i speak for most people here in that. I wouldn't even bother to download that so if that was the case it could just be deleted.
How do other games get around the legal end when mods use real world badging? Because they had nothing to do with the mod.
Is it not that the idea of mods for people to get creative whether that be the biggest load of crap mod or not.
If its crap people use it once then if it is seen to have little likes/use delete it simple.
Btw I'm not saying allow real world badging it was just an example.
I agree that their needs to be a team bigger then the dev team involved in the vetting process, to filter out potential copyright cases but also for quality. This is going to be a time-consuming process and it would be best if the devs are free to continue their work rather than getting bogged-down with mod approvals.
My biggest issue with opening LFS up for modding has always been the potential to flood the game with 'rubbish' mods. A free-for-all approach where anything goes does concern me. It worries me that this may dilute the character of the game that I love. So, in my opinion I don't think a flood of half-baked 3D models or outrageous mechanical Frankenstein cars is going to be good for the future of LFS.
I'm just not sure where we (as a community) would draw the line.
I'd rather see a large team, instead of the entire community, taking part in the mod approval process, with the option to appeal a rejection if certain changes are made to the mod if it hasn't ticked all the boxes required to pass the approval process.
Community feedback of approved mods will still occur anyway and can remain a factor to keep the process honest and to catch any anomalies that might have been missed by the approval team. We have a very talented player base with broad expertise in many areas, and this can be very useful for spotting details or raising issues that others have not considered.
I'd rather see mods being approved that function well and look good than simply having mods approved which are popular for some novelty reason. That doesn't mean that novelty cars would be off the table, but I worry that LFS will just become a car sandbox and the focus may shift away from racing. My hope for LFS is that online racing will be energized by these new developments in our game.
2c
My biggest issue with opening LFS up for modding has always been the potential to flood the game with 'rubbish' mods. A free-for-all approach where anything goes does concern me. It worries me that this may dilute the character of the game that I love. So, in my opinion I don't think a flood of half-baked 3D models or outrageous mechanical Frankenstein cars is going to be good for the future of LFS.
I'm just not sure where we (as a community) would draw the line.
I'd rather see a large team, instead of the entire community, taking part in the mod approval process, with the option to appeal a rejection if certain changes are made to the mod if it hasn't ticked all the boxes required to pass the approval process.
Community feedback of approved mods will still occur anyway and can remain a factor to keep the process honest and to catch any anomalies that might have been missed by the approval team. We have a very talented player base with broad expertise in many areas, and this can be very useful for spotting details or raising issues that others have not considered.
I'd rather see mods being approved that function well and look good than simply having mods approved which are popular for some novelty reason. That doesn't mean that novelty cars would be off the table, but I worry that LFS will just become a car sandbox and the focus may shift away from racing. My hope for LFS is that online racing will be energized by these new developments in our game.
2c
I agree with what you are saying, although I don't think selling mods is (necessarily) a good idea. If copyrighted content does slip through the approval process - and it has been sold as a commercial asset - then legal trouble is much more likely. So purely from a risk management point of view, it may be best not to involve profiteering.
A case could be made for selling content which is designed and made completely from scratch, but it would have to be obviously unique rather than a tweaked version of an existing real world car. There's a lot of grey area here of course.
Some people already mentioned it but i'll say it again. What about paying like a 1 pound for a mod upload/review process (could be more idk). As in licensed mods wouldn't be approved but such slight modifications would be allowed. For example:
No way to play around with such mods online even though they can be fun. I do understand that there are modders working on new mods and so on. I've started myself doing one project but it will take me months to complete. It's a lot of work and i do have a day job as well.
With paid system, mod list wouldn't get cluttered by useless mods. And we have rating system, if rating is bad, remove mod after certain time. Everybody wins.
I paid few times already to increase maximum slots for skins uploads.
No way to play around with such mods online even though they can be fun. I do understand that there are modders working on new mods and so on. I've started myself doing one project but it will take me months to complete. It's a lot of work and i do have a day job as well.
With paid system, mod list wouldn't get cluttered by useless mods. And we have rating system, if rating is bad, remove mod after certain time. Everybody wins.
I paid few times already to increase maximum slots for skins uploads.
I didn't mean a dollar price as in selling the mods, but for the review process. Basically you'll have to have $1 or more in your account to be able to send a mod for review. If it's approved, $1 is subtracted from your account and you'll be able to update it in the future free of charge. If it's not approved, your money stays in your account and you go back to the drawing board and try to make a better mod that will be approved. And maybe S3 users could be granted a one or two charge free mod approvals. The price I brought up is completely arbitrary so it could be any other price that makes people stop sending that 1hp stronger UF1000 for a review.
While paid mods are very high quality, I don't think its worth taking the risk to create a platform for studios like them to officially sell mods (obviously they will submit real world cars, not a FXO with changed bumpers) and give a green flag for companies to sue LFS to death for allowing it, both for creating such a platform and two for profiting from it.
RSS and similar studios have their own websites and payment methods to both make a profit and get Kunos out of any problem they could run into. At worst those studios will be shut down, but won't hurt the game itself.
A problem arises when money comes into play with mods. One could state that LFS then makes money from mods with externally downloaded 3d models that have certain non-commercial copyright licenses applied (which are many of them out there). E.g. the "CreativeCommons Attribution-NonCommercial (BY-NC)". I know these 1 pound payments are peanuts, but laws are very black and white and we want to remain as legit as possible and also not complicate this system more than it can already be in certain cases. So don't think we should go there at this time.
for the "UF1300 like" car, is it possible to make another in game system for standard car tuning?
The way I see it if a mod has been officially approved and is available via the game itself then that should also be high quality piece of content. Makes no sense to officially review quick hack jobs and people don't want to download crap either. Being official mod should be a seal of quality in itself. Even if that is also somewhat subjective.
So official mods should be tested for high quality and legality. This also means there needs to be a precise check list so people know beforehand what is required BOTH from legality point of view and quality pov. Here is a check list proposal:
- (current requirements)
- official category content needs to support all of lfs features (when applicable, single seaters don't have headlights for example)
- must be your own work (with proofs and permissions)
- be of high quality: visual + physics + audio + ai + template + setup
- must have a discussion forum thread
Any hackjobs, pure engine mods etc. should be rejected outright.
One thing I was wondering when I first heard about lfs modding was how modded lfs content would be handled. It seems making mods out of official content (brands and 3d models) is okay? To me that sounds like its own category: Upgrades.
But that is its own rabbit hole that can go pretty deep. If there was a way to make upgrades as pure non-3d then those could be treated the same way as autocross layouts. And those would not even need to be reviewed. Ideally people would be able to use upgraded cars with the base cars on same server as well.
These upgrades should be possible for all official lfs cars AND approved mods.
I'm not sure if allowing 3d derivative works on official content is good idea. Official mods should be fully new and original work. Upgrades should be those tiny mods that just change engine power for example. LFS cars should be off limits just like real brands.
So official mods should be tested for high quality and legality. This also means there needs to be a precise check list so people know beforehand what is required BOTH from legality point of view and quality pov. Here is a check list proposal:
- (current requirements)
- official category content needs to support all of lfs features (when applicable, single seaters don't have headlights for example)
- must be your own work (with proofs and permissions)
- be of high quality: visual + physics + audio + ai + template + setup
- must have a discussion forum thread
Any hackjobs, pure engine mods etc. should be rejected outright.
One thing I was wondering when I first heard about lfs modding was how modded lfs content would be handled. It seems making mods out of official content (brands and 3d models) is okay? To me that sounds like its own category: Upgrades.
But that is its own rabbit hole that can go pretty deep. If there was a way to make upgrades as pure non-3d then those could be treated the same way as autocross layouts. And those would not even need to be reviewed. Ideally people would be able to use upgraded cars with the base cars on same server as well.
These upgrades should be possible for all official lfs cars AND approved mods.
I'm not sure if allowing 3d derivative works on official content is good idea. Official mods should be fully new and original work. Upgrades should be those tiny mods that just change engine power for example. LFS cars should be off limits just like real brands.
I kinda like the verified/unverified idea, and it overlaps a bit with one idea that came to my mind last night.
How about having a hidden-flag that users can set on their mods?
So in order to access such a mod in-game, either
This mechanism would also work for the "verified/unverified" scheme. Either the server white-lists it or the user explicitly enters the particular skin-id.
*That whitelist function was mentioned somewhere, I hope it'll come soon.
How about having a hidden-flag that users can set on their mods?
So in order to access such a mod in-game, either
- the server must have it white-listed OR (if the server does not use white-lists*)
- the user has to enter the skin-id directly
This mechanism would also work for the "verified/unverified" scheme. Either the server white-lists it or the user explicitly enters the particular skin-id.
*That whitelist function was mentioned somewhere, I hope it'll come soon.
A mixed system could be useful and do the trick. A system where everyone could upload and share their work (as WIP) and let every player to download if they want, but only to play off-line at a first stage.
This will give all of us the oportunity to test and vote, and act as a filter for the team wich will verify/decide if the work complies with stablished legal minimums to allow the mod to go online
This will give all of us the oportunity to test and vote, and act as a filter for the team wich will verify/decide if the work complies with stablished legal minimums to allow the mod to go online
Hi All, time to give you my five cents about everything.
First of all, super work to the crew for the Editor, and I fully understand that you have big concerns about which mods you should approve or not.
From my point of view the editor is super when coming to just edit engines maybe switch engine to the rear instead of front and switch from FWD to RWD. But I also fully understand that only to approve this kind of "mods" is going to take up to much time.
But maybe to find a way of letting this cars exist by saving them and sharing them among friends and on private online servers, and not having them on your vehicle mods download page.
For "our" Swedish LFS community of driving "rallycross" with XFG and XRG for 10-12 years this would be a revolution, getting more cars and variety and parity should really lift everything to a brand new level.
Also totally of the record, to have possible to add gravel sections in the track editor should be awesome, to add gravel in the same way you now add concrete slabs (Y)
Awesome game and work still guys!
First of all, super work to the crew for the Editor, and I fully understand that you have big concerns about which mods you should approve or not.
From my point of view the editor is super when coming to just edit engines maybe switch engine to the rear instead of front and switch from FWD to RWD. But I also fully understand that only to approve this kind of "mods" is going to take up to much time.
But maybe to find a way of letting this cars exist by saving them and sharing them among friends and on private online servers, and not having them on your vehicle mods download page.
For "our" Swedish LFS community of driving "rallycross" with XFG and XRG for 10-12 years this would be a revolution, getting more cars and variety and parity should really lift everything to a brand new level.
Also totally of the record, to have possible to add gravel sections in the track editor should be awesome, to add gravel in the same way you now add concrete slabs (Y)
Awesome game and work still guys!
Very much agree with this idea!
I completely agree with this idea.
Mods do have access control.
A user can set their mod to:
- public
- team
- custom (enter users who can use it)
- private (only creator can use it)
A user can set their mod to:
- public
- team
- custom (enter users who can use it)
- private (only creator can use it)
How about doing the categorization in the in-game browser? For example, tabs only for Wip mods, and only with changed values without external changes, like UF1300 was. And so on, tabs for every chassis class, or maybe for Drift, Drag, Race cars. I don’t think that in this case, it will be necessary to worry about a lot of the same-looking cars.
+1 on this (Y)
OK, thank you all for the conversation.
We have decided to take the approach of letting legal things go through, which can allow people to experiment and have fun, which is kind of the point of the system. I've started approving a bunch of mods today.
Amongst other things, today we are working on a staff picks filter which should work as a quality filter that could be applied, for example, to mods that have been through a work in progress process on the forum. The quality level at which we enable staff picks is subjective and may change over time. So one mod that ends up with staff picks now might lose that status later, or an experimental mod might acquire staff picks status at a later time, when advised by the community. We'll see how that goes.
We have decided to take the approach of letting legal things go through, which can allow people to experiment and have fun, which is kind of the point of the system. I've started approving a bunch of mods today.
Amongst other things, today we are working on a staff picks filter which should work as a quality filter that could be applied, for example, to mods that have been through a work in progress process on the forum. The quality level at which we enable staff picks is subjective and may change over time. So one mod that ends up with staff picks now might lose that status later, or an experimental mod might acquire staff picks status at a later time, when advised by the community. We'll see how that goes.
(Scawen)
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UF1300 removed? [topic changed to mods approval system]
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