I was wondering if it would be possible to use LFS to teach driving.
The most obvious thing that comes to mind, is teaching control of the car.
I've suggested this to my boss and it turns out that they're currently looking for a computer simulation to use.

It might be interesting to use the car park and set up a course with cones and barriers. A slalom, an emergency braking course, and even maybe something basic, for beginners, where they can practice their turning and stopping. Our school currently offers a skid control course which is 3 hours theory and 1.5 hours practice in a modified car, i think LFS could be added into that to make the course even more appealing and constructive.

Can we currently design our own driving lessons or do we need special software for that? Any chance the devs have anything to say about that?

I will be doing a demo for my boss sometime in october, any suggestions?
I'm thinking of setting up a slalom/emergency braking/emergency turn course in the car park and another on the skid pad, and of course, I've already created the setup that we use for teaching parking so that he can more easily compare real life to LFS.

The LFS "lessons" are laid out to teach performance driving. Thus they measure the time the driver needed to finish the lesson. That propably isn't what you want.

You propably want a simple AutoX layout that allows the driver to reach a specific speed and do an evading maneuver around some cones.
This is possible. LFS can automatically give penalties for hit cones.

LFS allows you to show the differences between the different drivetrains and the behaviour of a non-ABS car under cornering+braking. You can show how a RWD power-oversteers and how a FWD power-understeers. Depending on the size of your carpark this might be an advantage and will, regardless of the available cars, spare your tyres .

Vain

Quote from CSU1 :

" target="_blank">http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=11721

That's an Online Racing School, rancid is talking about regular driving lessons as far as I can read.

I don't want to bother the devs....yet.

First I want to show the game to my boss and see what he thinks. If he likes it, he'll be the one contacting the devs and working out any details. I guess I should mention that I'm a driving instructor.

I just had a quick look thru the lessons files and it all seems pretty simple at first glance - a list of lessons, each lesson uses a text file, a layout file and an image. I'll try writing a small proggy to edit the lessons files and create a couple of them, just so that it has a nice interface when I show it to my boss.

Well, i've digged in there before and although we have no official support, someone with basic
programming knowledge could make an app that edits the 'lessons'.

From what i remember there are lesson files (.lsn) which contain info about which car, track,
layout and skin to use. There's a text file (.txt) where you enter text for Objective, Purpose
and Tips. There's a layout file (.lyt), which is a basic layout file like any other. Then there's
an index file (.lll) which contains the list of tests in the folder.

This info could easily be used to make basic examples of situations you want to simulate.
There is still one thing missing though, LFS doesn't have any 'weather' yet, so no rain or snow.

Just to let you know, you'd not be the first LFS is already being used by some driving schools as an additional training tool. Like Vain explained, one can very well show the basic handling characteristics of different cars with LFS, without any chance of ruining an actual car LFS can therefore give a good introduction to "panic training".

You don't really have to ask us for permission btw, unless LFS would actually be used commercially (eg. you make money from it by charging people to drive). Then you should send us a mail.

We have a parking lot. We have indicators. All we need really is working traffic lights, enforced speed limits and traffic and it would begin to work as a driver training tool.

I know there has been a bit of interest in America and Dubai about driver training in conjunction with Cyberseat and LFS. I don't think anything has come of it, but it would be cool if it was an avenue that LFS could one day follow. As it is, get a DFP and a TrackIR (or better yet get multiple projectors so you can see all around you in a fake car using it's steering and pedals). Then you can practice emergency stops and reverse parking until the student is perfect.

Edit: Maybe something has come of it if Victor knows it is being used in this fashion

Quote from tristancliffe :

We have a parking lot. We have indicators. All we need really is working traffic lights, enforced speed limits and traffic and it would begin to work as a driver training tool.

I know there has been a bit of interest in America and Dubai about driver training in conjunction with Cyberseat and LFS. I don't think anything has come of it, but it would be cool if it was an avenue that LFS could one day follow. As it is, get a DFP and a TrackIR (or better yet get multiple projectors so you can see all around you in a fake car using it's steering and pedals). Then you can practice emergency stops and reverse parking until the student is perfect.

Edit: Maybe something has come of it if Victor knows it is being used in this fashion

I would not recommend that tbh. It's just not the same, driving a sim and the real thing. Like judging distance and a trackir doesn't really allow you to actually move your head that far. You'd have to go as far as using a really good motion sim + a really good HMD (head mounted display).

But LFS for introductory training : sure thing.

Ah yes im sorry I misunderstood at the start of the thread, but do us a favour, if you do get your boss to go ahead with it please post you rig.....
lol I can only imagine the fun you would have with travk IR and three projector screens after work/lunch-time etc.
MY DREAM JOB

could live for speed be adapted to teach you how do deal with traffic police? :S (i had a problem this morning you see)

Quote from CSU1 :

(..)I can only imagine the fun you would have with travk IR and three projector screens after work/lunch-time etc.
MY DREAM JOB

No no, he won't be 'having fun', he'll be 'working'

Victor:
LFS would be used commercially, either as a standalone lesson that you pay for or part of a more complex training course. That's why I said that my boss will be the one contacting you guys IF (hopefully WHEN) he decides to use LFS. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Just as a side note, would you guys be willing to create an extra car or 2 to fit our specific needs (not for free of course), just in case the boss asks ?

Is there any other 900degree wheels other than the DFP?

For the display, I was thinking of a projector or multiple screens. Any input on this? (price is very important)

About TrackIR, is it suitable for multiple users or do you have to calibrate it every time a different sized person uses it?

I want to gather as much info as possible so that I can show the full potential of the game to my boss. (hopefully i'll have a shot at teaching using LFS)
Also, the budget is very important, driving schools in quebec work on a VERY tight budget, so the cheaper the better.

At the moment the only 900° wheel is the DFP. The Logitech G25 will also support 900° rotation, but it's a whole bit more expensive and not yet released.

The cheapest multi-screen solution should be a Matrox Parhelia + 3 CRT monitors.

I don't have a Track IR. But from what I know about the technology I'd guesstimate that it doesn't need recalibration. But it takes time to get used to. Also, the headmovement is restricted. 90° or real movement (45° to both sides) have to be mapped to ~230° of real movement.

I'd go for a single-screen setup. You'll be teaching evading and such things. Not peripheral vision.

Vain

Quote from Captain Slow :

could live for speed be adapted to teach you how do deal with traffic police? :S (i had a problem this morning you see)

You need a different piece of software for that.

Quote from STROBE :

You need a different piece of software for that.

hahaha. well its ok im not in any trouble i dont think. i could have been though :S

Quote from Victor :

I would not recommend that tbh. It's just not the same, driving a sim and the real thing. Like judging distance and a trackir doesn't really allow you to actually move your head that far. You'd have to go as far as using a really good motion sim + a really good HMD (head mounted display).

But LFS for introductory training : sure thing.

yeah sense of speed and getting a sense of how close the car is to its surroundings can only come from actually driving. but lfs does give a good idea of how a car works and reacts. I practiced parking alot in lfs before i did it in a real car. still judging distances and speed is very different in real life.

Even without stuff like stalling, LFS and a 900deg wheel would still be more realistic than a lot of other 'simulators' which use 200deg Sega wheels and no clutch.

And IRL 45mph can feel like 120, in LFS 120mph feels like 10 compared. You just can't simulate that feeling.

Yes.

My mate used it to practice parrallel parking. He said it helped. It also broke him out of the habit of left foot braking

for me, what really sets of LFS from driving around in the real world is:

1. the lack of sounds (ambience and normal sounds such as suspension thrumming, brake squeels every so often, tire tread on certain roads)
2. lack of sense of speed (like everyone else); i think its more or less the sound for me, but something doesn't feel right when i compare driving down the road to LFS, either in LFS it looks like im going to fast, or in life everything looks slow
3. feedback (obviously pedals, but i will exclude those), but the steering wheel doesn't move around or as fierce as it can going down a road
4. tracks seem to "perfect" ei: all roads are virtually perfectly flat, and you dont have to turn a direction to keep the car straight

overall, i think LFS just seems to static to compare to the world, when going down a road you have to make a ton of decisions and whatnot as all sorts of things are happening simultaneously, while in LFS.. it seems as though everyone i the world has died in some nuclear war and only you survive :S

and finally, the pure limitations of computers and viewing; Gs, which really effect the senses, and you can't move around freely like you can in a car (unless you have a large enough wallet to buy a TrackIR) [for that reason, i wish there was a sensor on the mouse so when you moved the mouse, it would move your view in LFS instead of any random time it gets bumped]
so in the end, i think its sound sets me off the most

I will however admit that I did use this for parallel parking during drivers ed (unfortunately it didn't help me lol)

XCNuse: well actually LFS is sort of a racing simulator, not a traffic driving simulator or something, that makes it feel a little static

though better ambient noises would be a lot nicer, and we really need a track or two like Nürburgring or Le sarthe,
i.e. tracks that feel and look like they were taken straight from real life public roads!
.. and proper wheel and pedal set would be nice too, maybe the new Logitech G25 will be the one we're looking for

lol almost every thread ends up like this if it lives long enough. mass deja vu.

go hijack some other thread peeps illepall

so i installed vb6 again and after 2 years of not touching it, everything still is in my head, google helps to refresh the memory but after an hour of coding i'm almost back in shape....

so i've got the basic structure for the lesson editor setup, it reads the .lll and .lsn files and displays a nice little list of lessons with all of their info. i should be done by tomorrow if nothing comes up.

is there any way to impose constraints in the layout files? what i mean is requirements, like reaching a minimum speed before braking?

the plan for now is to modify the layout i made of the closed circuit course that we use to teach parking and make it into a lesson or even multiple lessons for each parking type (i know it's not the best tool for that, bla bla bla, but i want to give him a sort of a link between the game and real life)
another set of lessons will be a few laps around the skip pad in different cars to demonstrate the different handling of each drivetrain
then a lesson in emergency avoidance of an obstacle

any other ideas?

You could teach what a gearchange mid-corner does to an RWD... But be sure to disable throttle blip on downshift before that lesson.

Vain