Quote from -verde- :

When being in majority of westerners became an argument? To know what Putin actually says, you'd need to get a full and proper translation, which western media is not able or doesn't want to provide sometimes. To know what Russians think, you should have known Russian and find real people outside of western social media. The real thing is that some people outside of Russia (and in this thread) couldn't care less about the war this war is about to end. Is that war justified in your eyes? Would you wish it to continue?

Bishop does not say anything about being westerners. He just said facts. If his facts are not important to you, but the belonging of a person is important, then here I am Russian. Like you, I listened to Putin's speech in my native language.

For the entire first half of the speech, he justified his actions, including the reasons that I described here myself in the thread above. And more:

He said that he has nuclear and modern weapons, and if someone else interferes in this war, he can use them.
- Do you think this is the rhetoric of a mentally healthy president of the country?

He said that the Nazis are in power in Ukraine.
- And who are these Nazis in power in Ukraine? Is Zelensky a Nazi? Ridiculous. There have been no Nazis in power in Ukraine since 2015. And even in the presidential elections in February 2014, 2 Nazis, Yarosh and Tyagnibok, took part in less than 1.5 percent for two. In the parliament of Ukraine, 1st seat belongs to a nationalist. Where about 450 seats. It seems to be less than the European average.

He said that "a genocide is taking place in Ukraine against millions of people living there, and they rely only on Russia."
- an obvious lie. What other genocide of millions of people .. a person just went crazy if he really believes in it.

He said "military operation on the territory of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic"
- But the Russian Troops are already in Kyiv, Kharkov, Kherson. (pic 1) The invading troops came from all directions of the borders of Belarus and Russia, including Crimea. He says one thing and does another. Of course, I understand that this is normal for Putin and everyone is used to it. But if someone does not understand, then this is not correct. It's not a "military operation" in a specific region of the country. But in Reality Its a War on the whole country..pic1 Shows the movement of heavy equipment like tanks, armored personnel carriers, and more. Pic2 shows the first attack on 24 February with airstrikes on the whole country against strategic military targets.

He constantly lies, and not only now, but all the time also to his people. But you prefer to pretend that nothing is happening. I don’t understand how it can be, is it some kind of special superpower like a filter in the head that don't allow you to see the lie? Or were you constantly forced to watch "Россия 24" and "RT" with spacers in your eyes like a clockwork orange hero?

I came here for ukrainean opinion, but it seems it's no time to chat for them right now.
Just imagine, yesterday you do your job, drawing 3d models, building your sim rig, playing online with friends. But today you have to leave your house with just your documents, live in a dirty hideout for an undefined time and wait till some mofos in government come to a peace decision behind the round table in fancy interiors. And even if you survived, no guarantee, that you get back to things at home as they were before. This world is f###ed up so hard! Sick of it!

added:

I totally agree with what Aleksandr_124rus is saying. And i'm sad that i'm in minority that surroinded by people like -verde-. I had a conversations with neighbours, family members, co-workers, people of Doetsk and Lugansk, and the treat me as an enemy of the state. I't s about 6/1 ratio. But difference between us is: i'm not going to fight them for their belifd, bit they are ready to fight me for mine...

Quote from LakynVonLegendaus :

No, it really doesn't. A few thousand years ago most people believed the Earth was flat, did it point towards them being right? Anyway, I don't really understand what does that have to do with anything I said.

Only naive, black and white minded people believe that somehow removing an individual from office is gonna solve anything. Putin, Bush, whoever,.. These people didn't fall on Earth from a tree, we as a society created them. These people and their wars are not the problem, those are only symptoms of a much bigger problem. That problem is ignorance. But sure, go ahead and continue with your naive attempt to put a bandage on a symptom, sorry for interrupting, I'll shut up now

Putin had stated that the Ukranian people would welcome him with open arms, do you see that happening?
He's now also said that european countries with US nuclear weapons should send them back to the US, now that is really comical, hes the only person that has threatened others with Nuclear weapons, so if anyone should have them removed its should be him.

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

Bishop does not say anything about being westerners. He just said facts. If his facts are not important to you, but the belonging of a person is important, then here I am Russian. Like you, I listened to Putin's speech in my native language.

For the entire first half of the speech, he justified his actions, including the reasons that I described here myself in the thread above. And more:

He said that he has nuclear and modern weapons, and if someone else interferes in this war, he can use them.
- Do you think this is the rhetoric of a mentally healthy president of the country?

He said that the Nazis are in power in Ukraine.
- And who are these Nazis in power in Ukraine? Is Zelensky a Nazi? Ridiculous. There have been no Nazis in power in Ukraine since 2015. And even in the presidential elections in February 2014, 2 Nazis, Yarosh and Tyagnibok, took part in less than 1.5 percent for two. In the parliament of Ukraine, 1st seat belongs to a nationalist. Where about 450 seats. It seems to be less than the European average.

He said that "a genocide is taking place in Ukraine against millions of people living there, and they rely only on Russia."
- an obvious lie. What other genocide of millions of people .. a person just went crazy if he really believes in it.

He said "military operation on the territory of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic"
- But the Russian Troops are already in Kyiv, Kharkov, Kherson. (pic 1) The invading troops came from all directions of the borders of Belarus and Russia, including Crimea. He says one thing and does another. Of course, I understand that this is normal for Putin and everyone is used to it. But if someone does not understand, then this is not correct. It's not a "military operation" in a specific region of the country. But in Reality Its a War on the whole country..pic1 Shows the movement of heavy equipment like tanks, armored personnel carriers, and more. Pic2 shows the first attack on 24 February with airstrikes on the whole country against strategic military targets.

He constantly lies, and not only now, but all the time also to his people. But you prefer to pretend that nothing is happening. I don’t understand how it can be, is it some kind of special superpower like a filter in the head that don't allow you to see the lie? Or were you constantly forced to watch "Россия 24" and "RT" with spacers in your eyes like a clockwork orange hero?

I think that some might think that when we do not agree with Putin, we're then disrespecting the Russian people , which it is not. Russia and its people are something of beauty with a rich culture which has given us the best opera and best poetry, the west does not blame the Russian people and its quite the opposite, we feel for the Russian people.

Another point id like to make is that Putin say's his goal is to take down the Nazi's in power, yet Zelenskyy is born to jewish parents and members of his great grandads family died in the camps.

Respect to you

Every passive adult Russian citizen is co-responsible for war crimes unleashed by their leader, mentally ill Putin in Ukraine. And have blood on their hands. They let the evil to rise and grow for 20 years, not taking action against. Russians, you are delussioned, in denial. Similar as Germans civilists were in denial of concentration camps existence until were taken to see on their own eyes. Then the reality hit them. Too late.

In this very moment, Putin destroys your future and our future too.

C'mon Russians, you can still do it, stop genocide https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1498808030737178627

UPDATE
"It's a disaster": Moscow deputies urged Putin to end the war

The Council of Deputies of the Gagarinsky municipal district in Moscow condemned military operations on the territory of Ukraine and called on Vladimir Putin to immediately withdraw troops from there.

In a letter to the Russian president, the deputies called the invasion of Ukraine a disaster.

"This is the path to the degradation and impoverishment of the country. No other actions could cause more damage to the Russian economy," the appeal says.

Earlier, the Council of Deputies of the Moscow District of Khamovniki also made an anti-war statement.

SOURCE: https://tinyurl.com/3vxmrjfj

As a bit of a side note, it's kind of funny seeing how all of you guys are discussing this. Both with providing facts and also being civil. As an American, things are hell here, and the way they're fearmongering and twisting things on the media here. Especially on FOX News, too. It seems like a lot of Americans, for whatever reason, are supportive more of the Russians than the Ukrainians. Like I just look at the facts and look at proper sources and have civil discussions, but with Americans they get all pissed off about everything and turn a blind eye. I was talking to someone the other day about the situation and he was going off for like an hour about how shitty Ukraine was and how much they deserved all this with how horribly they treated Russia, and I was just like "What the hell are you even on about?"

I saw a video the other day where a guy was just driving on the road. A Russian tank went out of his way to veer into him and crush the car for no reason. The guy was alive, thankfully, but that's literally a war crime, maybe two. Because intentionally killing a civilian (or trying to) and unnecessarily destroying civilian property are both considered war crimes.

What I think a lot of people, especially Americans, fail to realize sometimes is that not everything is just pure politics. Like this whole Russia V. Ukraine thing. It's less about your political views and more about what's truly at stake. Like it doesn't matter, for example, if you're left-wing or right-wing, because murder is still murder in the end, and murder is wrong. Killing a civilian is still killing a civilian, and killing civilians are wrong.

I just hope things in Ukraine get better. I've been talking to a lot of Ukrainians and they're bloody terrified. But the Russians are, too. I've seen Russian soldiers who are against this, yet they don't really have much of a choice. And with the US starting to get involved, as well as possibly other countries, this may end up becoming World War III, or at least a much bigger conflict than what was originally started.

Quote from mrwallace888 :

As a bit of a side note, it's kind of funny seeing how all of you guys are discussing this. Both with providing facts and also being civil. As an American, things are hell here, and the way they're fearmongering and twisting things on the media here. Especially on FOX News, too. It seems like a lot of Americans, for whatever reason, are supportive more of the Russians than the Ukrainians. Like I just look at the facts and look at proper sources and have civil discussions, but with Americans they get all pissed off about everything and turn a blind eye. I was talking to someone the other day about the situation and he was going off for like an hour about how shitty Ukraine was and how much they deserved all this with how horribly they treated Russia, and I was just like "What the hell are you even on about?"

I saw a video the other day where a guy was just driving on the road. A Russian tank went out of his way to veer into him and crush the car for no reason. The guy was alive, thankfully, but that's literally a war crime, maybe two. Because intentionally killing a civilian (or trying to) and unnecessarily destroying civilian property are both considered war crimes.

What I think a lot of people, especially Americans, fail to realize sometimes is that not everything is just pure politics. Like this whole Russia V. Ukraine thing. It's less about your political views and more about what's truly at stake. Like it doesn't matter, for example, if you're left-wing or right-wing, because murder is still murder in the end, and murder is wrong. Killing a civilian is still killing a civilian, and killing civilians are wrong.

I just hope things in Ukraine get better. I've been talking to a lot of Ukrainians and they're bloody terrified. But the Russians are, too. I've seen Russian soldiers who are against this, yet they don't really have much of a choice. And with the US starting to get involved, as well as possibly other countries, this may end up becoming World War III, or at least a much bigger conflict than what was originally started.

World War III Prologue... until it's progression is cancelled, in a way or another.

I live in Moscow, many people think that out of all of Russia there are the richest people here, but, alas, this is not the case, as in any other region, there are a lot of families who live in absolute poverty, paying for a new car or apartment for the rest of their lives , we are an oil-producing country, but for some reason we have huge prices for gasoline, which always grow, but never go down, look at the example of the Arab Emirates, how do they live there?
There is huge corruption in the country, at the moment it is perhaps higher only in Kazakhstan. The people are intimidated by the authorities, the police and other structures do not work to protect the population, but to intimidate.
Only a few people in this country are satisfied with what is happening, the rest do not want to live like this.
The government is playing, and ordinary people who want to live well, both in the Russian Federation and in Ukraine, suffer.

Too much fake news from both sides this days. I try to distinguish it myself, and share with friends the info that looks plausable to me.

Right niw i recieved a news about people been arrested along with their kids at the protest in russia. The sites with this topic are already blocked in my country. I can see pictures in goigle, but i can't enter the site. Also tiday one of the "opposite" (they half-opposite in fact) radio stations who covered 2020 belarus protests is down now. I think i won't be able to communicate with you soon. We'll see.


added:
as soon as internent is off = that means they ready to kill their own people here, inside russia.

Quote from TV[cz :

Every passive adult Russian citizen is co-responsible for war crimes unleashed by their leader, mentally ill Putin in Ukraine. And have blood on their hands. They let the evil to rise and grow for 20 years, not taking action against. Russians, you are delussioned, in denial. Similar as Germans civilists were in denial of concentration camps existence until were taken to see on their own eyes. Then the reality hit them. Too late. In this very moment, Putin destroys your future and our future too.

C'mon Russians, you can still do it, stop genocide

I understand that you are emotional. As we all. We all don't want this to continue. But you do the same thing as Putin when you call what is happening a "genocide". People were killed in Ukraine for 8 years and before that in the LPR and DPR regions where Russians live. Putin called it "genocide" and sent troops into Ukraine. And some people living in LPR and DPR justify it.

You live in the Czech Republic (as I understand it) and tell us what to do. But I don't think you understand the current situation. Russia is not the Czech Republic. Russia is not Germany or France. In Russia, the number of law enforcement agencies per capita is the highest in the world. Russia is an authoritarian police state ruled by a dictator. There are no free rallies. Rallies must be coordinated with the state. They are coordinated far from the city center. If people go to rallies without the consent of the state, they are loaded into police vans by the thousands. And they will be kept in Jail for 10-15 days. If people take any action (even non-violent ones), they will be put in prison for years.

Under Putin's rule, rallies have never solved anything.
Even in 2012, there were more than 200,000 people near Bolotnaya Square against the results of the presidential elections in Russia. It didn't solve anything. There was not a single piece of news about this in the Russian media. As if nothing is happening. Even if a million people come out for a peaceful protest, this will not change anything. Everyone will just ignore it and put a bunch of people in jail and prison. As it was in Belarus.

If you're talking about revolutionary protest. Then the FSB and FSO work here no worse than the police. At any rally, all political and strategic important objects are surrounded by military and police officers and in huge numbers. For example, someone will try to break into the white house, a shooting will be opened. If 100,000 people try to do this, a huge number of people will be killed. For what? Putin is not in the White House. Nobody knows his location. What is your specific plan? Try to describe it calmly and without emotion. What should the Russians do to change the regime?

I do confirm, what Alxander said, and as a man who spent 4 years in russian prison system i can say, that authority behave with peacefully protesting civilians exactly as they behave with criminals in prison (same for Belarus). I told you this is GULAG, not a country. Nobody wants to be beaten down and got apartments turned upside down and all your property stolen and vandalized by the means of 'security operation'. Remember Half Life 2? It shows very clearly how unarmed people feels when the combine invading their houses. That's why some part of our society afraid to protest. But i agree, that it's not an excuse when things gine so extreme. We have to do something, but how.

added:
...and btw, i am, what they call, a targeted individual since at least 2018. Go do research what that means, if you do not know.

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

What should the Russians do to change the regime?

I don't have any good ideas.

The Russian people are victims of Putin, just as the German people were the first victims of Hitler. I fear the new worldwide economic isolation of Russia will create a new, giant North Korea at the heart of the European continent.

Putin is determined to make his mark on world history at any cost. But it will be, first and foremost, at the expense of the Russian people, as well as those within Putin's reach - Belarusians, Ukrainians, Moldovans, Latvians, Lithuanians and potentially beyond.

I think a lot of us, myself included, have a "normalcy bias". We are in denial of the inevitability of what is to come, because unconsciously we sense that it will be bad and cannot see any way to avoid it. The fact is that there are no obvious avenues forwards that lead directly to peace, except through unfamiliar and inconceivably hard times. :-(

All I can suggest is to keep safe, Aleksandr. Use VPNs and delete your browsing history. Know that we all know you are in an impossible situation. Putin is not Russia, he is a cancer. We are friends of the Russian people.

I see the only peaceful solution for now: is to force entire world to BAN ALL Putin's friends. ALEXEY NAVALNY did investigations on them. Watch his videos and see the list of russian corrupt politicans and businessmen that were constantly violated human rights in russia. Their hands in blood.

Quote from Vladimir_nose :

I live in Moscow, many people think that out of all of Russia there are the richest people here, but, alas, this is not the case, as in any other region, there are a lot of families who live in absolute poverty, paying for a new car or apartment for the rest of their lives , we are an oil-producing country, but for some reason we have huge prices for gasoline, which always grow, but never go down, look at the example of the Arab Emirates, how do they live there?
There is huge corruption in the country, at the moment it is perhaps higher only in Kazakhstan. The people are intimidated by the authorities, the police and other structures do not work to protect the population, but to intimidate.
Only a few people in this country are satisfied with what is happening, the rest do not want to live like this.
The government is playing, and ordinary people who want to live well, both in the Russian Federation and in Ukraine, suffer.

You've confirmed everything that i was taught over the years, it seems that while Putin has been isolating during covid, he has become a lot more irrational.

Other's don't even understand that elections are rigged and most, if not all political opponents to Putin end up in prison or worse, and anyone protesting or speaking out against Putin end up the same.

Respect

EDIT by Scawen:
Thank you for the contribution.
Please, when posting a link, can you provide some supporting text?
Even if you are not adding your opinion, it's helpful for people to know what they are clicking.

In this case I have added some text:
Video "Reasons for Failure? Russian Air Force in Ukraine" by "Military Aviation History"

Original post:
https://youtu.be/_WGcfkqzUI4

Right...I have to say that whole Europe just went on more difficult complexity... Absolute no idea what to do next ( other than stopping the war and saving both Ukrainians and Russians ). Next 168 hours will give us at least somekind of mental impact.

Russia is becoming North-Korea II... Every political move now gives an impact... Every single one!

EDIT: Yea I know, this is more on off topic, but it does take effect on Ukraine and Russia itself too.

Hey Scawen, maybe you should jump in on the sanctions and stop selling licenses to russian players?

https://www.lfs.net/attachment/307458

EDIT: mpr in attachment, happens around 4 minutes in.

EDIT2 (by Scawen): removed IMG tags on the image as it is too nasty and prominent.

Well, as I understand it, Paypal, Visa and Mastercard have all now stopped working in Russia so I don't think we'll be selling any licenses to Russians in the near future.

That is sad to see the image you posted. If there is some proof, such as a MPR, we could ban the user from going online.

Quote from Scawen :

That is sad to see the image you posted. If there is some proof, such as a MPR, we could ban the user from going online.

I understand the desire to virtue signal support for Ukraine and in opposition to Russia, but this would set a precedent and take us to a place from which there is no return. Which side do you choose on Tibet, or on Uighur muslims, Trudeau/freedom convoy truckers or Trump supporters? Which opinions or beliefs are acceptable vs unacceptable on LFS that might result in an online ban from "The online racing simulator"?

Opposing the subjugation of the Ukrainian people is laudable, but to signal it by the active censorship of dissent? This is what Putin does, and is supposed to be what sets us apart from him.

I implore you to give more thought before going this direction.

I think you are very wrong.

I didn't want to discuss other wars but I will point out I am one of the two million or so people who marched in London to oppose the Iraq war before it started. We were ignored by Bush and Blair. It's very simple. There is a system of international law and you don't simply invade other countries in cold blood. Even if you don't like the leader, for good reasons.

It's extremely tragic that Blair and Bush did this. It means I can only cringe every time a British or USA politician says "this illegal war" about the Ukrainian invasion. Even though it IS illegal.

I really can't understand what is wrong in your brain if you cannot understand that to say "ukraine is nazi bitches" is ABSOLUTELY WRONG and ESPECIALLY in this situation when they are having all hell bombed out of them?

To accuse me of virtue signalling. Mate, you have lost the plot.

Can you really not see the difference between what this idiot said online, and what verde posted earlier in the thread? One deserves instant removal from online use, and the other can have his post left there.

Quote from Scawen :

I think you are very wrong.

You're entitled to believe that. Obviously I disagree.

Quote from Scawen :

I didn't want to discuss other wars but I will point out I am one of the two million or so people who marched in London to oppose the Iraq war before it started. We were ignored by Bush and Blair. It's very simple. There is a system of international law and you don't simply invade other countries in cold blood. Even if you don't like the leader, for good reasons.

I marched against intervention in Iraq too. BOTH times, in fact, as well as the Falklands (yes, I'm that old). I was raised by Quakers so my pacifism training is likely unrivalled. I spent many of the weekends of my youth in Trafalgar Square losing my voice outside South Africa House too. That isn't my point. It isn't THE point.

Quote from Scawen :

I really can't understand what is wrong in your brain if you cannot understand that to say "ukraine is nazi bitches" is ABSOLUTELY WRONG and ESPECIALLY in this situation when they are having all hell bombed out of them?

The problem appears to be that you immediately assume there is something wrong in my brain. I can believe both that this user is absolutely wrong AND that the solution isn't necessarily the immediate eradication of this user from this international platform.

Quote from Scawen :

To accuse me of virtue signalling. Mate, you have lost the plot.

Can you really not see the difference between what this idiot said online, and what verde posted earlier in the thread? One deserves instant removal from online use, and the other can have his post left there.

Of course I see the difference. But if you remove the idiot from online, how will HE see the difference?

How did that user come to this crazy belief? Read on (Reuters, 4 years ago). https://www.reuters.com/articl ... -commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

The situation is always more complicated than you realise, and it always needs to be carefully unpicked. And for some people it takes some time and effort, because their indoctrination is deep and their access to alternative viewpoints is limited. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

But if you ban them you've done nothing but limited their access to alternative viewpoints even further.

It's your choice to make. The online environment for LFS is now entirely within your control. Do what you believe is right, and if I disagree then that's for me to deal with separately.

Thanks, I see what you are saying.

I'm sorry for saying to you "I really can't understand what is wrong in your brain if you cannot understand..." That was over the top. The reason is, I was angry with your accusation of virtue signalling.

I agree this LFS forum and online system, although relatively tiny, is an international platform as you say. It's one little corner of the internet where people can discuss things. I'm really happy for people to discuss most things, no matter if I agree with them or not.

The problem is that we simply cannot allow our platform to be used for outright hate speech. We simply cannot tolerate that here, and people have had lengthy bans for other types of hate speech.

I agree there can be an issue with drawing the line between reasonable discussion and hate speech, so I have to restrain from knee-jerk reactions in such a case. But when something is obviously way over the line then we can only remove the user, either permanently or temporarily.

Unfortunately I do not have the time or inclination to try and take such an obvious offender aside and have a long moral discussion with them. I don't think it's practical.

I apologise for accusing you of virtue signalling, Scawen. I was out of order.

Thank you.

I have also taken this opportunity to reduce LakynVonLegendaus ban to one month.

EDIT: This is a completely separate incident, not related to the hate-speech discussed in recent posts.

I do not want to over-react through irritation and anger. I applied too long a ban of 3 months in the first place. I do believe LakynVonLegendaus was reacting to another user and me, in separate cases, by deciding what we were thinking, incorrectly, then attacking us for that incorrect assumption, and not listening to reason after that point.

It's not a sensible way to discuss things. We need to stay calm and talk to each other, as these country leaders should do. Let's try to understand what others are saying.

To be clear, I am including myself in that as I know I can get passionate and overreact and I must make sure I listen and consider different viewpoints.