Quote from Woz :

except when you drive with wheel and arms off. I have my wheel and arms in view so dont have them repeated

Lol. Still, in real life you can't see so much unless you are ten feet from the windshield.

Quote from Gunn :

This is not correct and is not what people have been talking about in this topic. We are discussing options.

I had assumed that a hardcore mode would be an all in one option that could be turned on or off on the server. If each thing could be set on its own you would have no idea what rules were active and which were not.

Quote from Gunn :

Lol. Still, in real life you can't see so much unless you are ten feet from the windshield.

hmmmm, time to plug the lappy into my 50" HD rear projector to test this. I will see how it looks in cockpit mode sat in the centre of screen and also centre view sat off to one side. I think Scawen said the render code had been updated for widescreen format. I know 4:1 is supported to handle 3 screen aspect ratio.

I don't think I will be Mr popular at home though if I wanted to move the TV to the study so I could use it for the PC lol

I collected the list of items so it is not lost.

I am not sure on forced manual clutch that was raised as people without proper clutch will prob use sequential on wheel. Can't see the point in forcing them to use button clutch. All other aids off though.

I also changed forced cockpit to view restrictions.

• View restrictions
  
• Forced manual gearbox.
  
• No artificial driving aids including:
  
• No auto-clutch????
  
• No auto-throttle blip or cut.
  
• Set Max Fuel Levels.
  
• Set Min Pit Stops.
  
• Set maximum number of tyres available per car.
  
• Blue Light at end of pit lane.
  
• Yellow flag penalties.
  
• "Live" blend line on pit exit with penalty for any breach.
  
• Closed server after qualifying ends (cannot connect to server while race in progress).
  
• No telepitting during race, retire from race option instead.
  
• No auto-reset of car.
  
• Reduced chat options. (3 F-Keys only, for example)
  
• Fixed pit boxes for each car (must stop in your pit box only).
  
• Longer repair time in pit.
  
• Allow 2-car team entries where two drivers must share the same pitbox.
  
• Random damages ( engine, springs, brakes, tyres ...... )
  
• Wind screen getting dirty

New

• Broadcast race start time in the server list. This is to allow easier population of long races on pickup servers. If people can see a big race starts in 30 mins they know to be ready for it. Instead of joining and waiting for enough people start join to start a long race.
  
• Shift-F type mode. Although some of the HUD type should be displayed for a short time once you pass the start line to simulate pit board info. Also flag info displayed as Shift-F hides these normally
  
• Real race starts with ability to jump the lights and black flag if you do.
  
• LFS World hosted ban list for HC servers. Limit to 30min ban or similar to stop abuse. Should put wreckers off joining a HC server as their fun will be very short lived with a ban on all HC servers for the ban period
  

What about my suggestions?
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=130722#post130722

random damages: imo wont be used, our PCs and inet connection are our random damages

Not sure I see how people can think low FOV's give a greater sense of speed. The reason a higher FOV can make the games feel faster is that you can see parts of the scenery when they are much closer to you, and we get the best idea of how fast something is going when it passes us. That means that the difference between standing still and moving at even a very low speed is much easier to notice with a high fov, because the objects we use to gauge that difference are much closer to us.
With a low FOV you only see more distant objects, and they are no longer in view when they pass you.

Quote from Woz :

I collected the list of items so it is not lost.

• Random damages ( engine, springs, brakes, tyres ...... )

You kidding?

How this would make a fare races if you had a randon damages after leading the race all the time? What a unfair advantage to your opponents.

This is something you can mostly control in realife(using better materials for example to avoid damage - some team use unproper parts,ivest less money) and LFS would need to calculate more things so you would have at least some kind of proper random damage.

Just setting random damage would be out of the place IHMO.

To the FOV conversation.
I am using since 2002 a 93degree of FOV as I have more overview what is happaneing around me which reflect more realife conditions and I have better sense of speed.The more FOV would be better as people have FOV around of 180-210 degree but in monitor it would be too much streched and not like in realife.

I think now that Woz and I have calmed down, and made our peace to a certain extent, I can see where he's coming from a bit more. That last big post helped a lot. I'm still confused about the sense of speed thing, as I feel the speed more with higher FOV's not lower, but maybe that's a perception thingy - you know, how people see the faces rather than the vase first, and others see the vase first.

As Gunn as summed up, the aim of the 'View Restrictions' () is not to, imo, force everyone to use the same view, but to limit people to sensible view options within the sim racing environment. I think the Papy method has it's virtues, but is a little too inflexible bearing in mind the differences in hardware and personal requirments. I need to be able to see the mirrors, preferably in the corner of my eye, and I achieve this with the large FOV. 60 is, for me, too narrow, though it is of course worse in some cars than others. However I am happy to accept what is given to me. I believe I am adaptable enough to cope with a forced position and FOV, but I would still prefer a small range of adjustability.

The final list drawn up seems good. I agree that Auto-Clutch has to remain enabled until either three-pedal setups become the norm, or the button clutch becomes a viable alternative which I don't think it is at the moment.

Random damage should never be included. In real life motorsport is a team sport (even in 'grass roots' racing it's more common that a group of people work on the car rather than one racer/engineer), and as such failures do happen - that can then be blamed on a preceeding event, and as such is not truly random. When I was last involved in the HSCC we had a wet race at Croft (I think it was), and our Fulvia was going around the outside of Elans which in the dry are 4 or 5 seconds a lap quicker. We got up to 2nd overall in 2 laps, then the throttle cable, which was improperly tightened on the carbs, came loose and we coasted to an embarassing halt. It wasn't random. I'd put money on that failure never happening again.
On the flip side I think that driving style should have an effect on the car - hitting kerbs hard should have the potential to damage the body, transmission, engine etc. Over-revving should cause a bit of damage, even if it's just that the engine starts to consume a bit of oil, and so later in the race you have to be careful about oil surge in corners as your oil level runs a bit lower (for the wet-sumped cars at least). So driver related failures are okay (if properly and fairly simulated), but random failures should not be.

Quote from sinbad :

Not sure I see how people can think low FOV's give a greater sense of speed. The reason a higher FOV can make the games feel faster is that you can see parts of the scenery when they are much closer to you, and we get the best idea of how fast something is going when it passes us. That means that the difference between standing still and moving at even a very low speed is much easier to notice with a high fov, because the objects we use to gauge that difference are much closer to us.
With a low FOV you only see more distant objects, and they are no longer in view when they pass you.

Its to do with how pixels move from the centre of the screen to the edge of the screen. You should notice with a low FOV that distances appear shorter while the wide FOV they appear longer because more data is displayed. So when you drive around the track it feels shorter.

You are right that it might just be perception. My brain is wired to work in strange FOV settings after more years in FPS games than I care to remember.

So some will see the speed of the warping effects high FOV give and see that as sense of speed while others see the distance feels shorter in low FOV so it feels faster.

Quote from DEVIL 007 :

You kidding?

Yep, sorry the list above the new items were not mine. Just collected bits.

Yep should be dropped.

To explain forced manual clutch: People with 2 pedals are not effected at all since they are not the ones who would use that option. People who do use three pedals might like to race others who use three pedals and so that would be a choice for their server, not everybody's cup of tea. I take my hat off to those guys who use a clutch pedal, they are one step closer to hardcore than I am at the moment. By Christmas I suspect that many more racers will be using three pedal setups and the merit of hardcore clutch and gearbox options becomes more apparent. I know that forced controller options is another subject that always brings a lot of hot air to a topic like this, but regardless there is still a certain demographic that would welcome the option if it were available.
If hardcore options can do nothing more than bring groups of racers together for a serious attempt at conducting proper racing then in my opinion they are all worth consideration. Leagues are great, necessary, but public racing can be so much more than it is now. The open and casual environment of a public LFS server is something we can all claim to enjoy. It sure can be a community-building environment and quite rewarding. But let's race, let's really race each other in an environment with less interruptions and intrusions, more controlled and evenly matched and condusive by nature to at least a semi-serious approach to racing online.

When I think of all the things that disrupt or mar online public racing it isn't hard to create a list of things I'd love to disable so that I might have some proper races publicly, regularly.
And I'm not from the elitist sector either, as I said to somebody earlier today I fully excpect to get eaten alive in hardcore mode! A least I know that those who beat me in a hardcore mode environment probably have done so by purely out-performing me and racing better than I did. Getting trounced by someone who out-raced me or made the most out of his/her car better than I, well I can live with every day of the week.

I think there would be no need for disabling auto clutch or automatic gear changes if those options were just a bit slower than doing it yourself. I would prefer to leave my server open to people who want to use those options, but they do need to be penalized somehow.

I plan to buy the new logitech G25 wheel/shifter/pedals when they come out so that I'll finally have a proper clutch pedal. But, even once that happens most of the people who I regularly race against won't have a clutch. My cousin doesn't have full use of both arms or legs, so he would be unable to race at all without auto gear change, auto clutch, etc. I want to allow these people to continue racing, but I also don't want them given an automatic advantage for doing less work. So, having the option to disable it on the server side might have some merit, but if the game gave a bit of a disadvantage for using those options, disabling them on the server might not even be necessary in the first place.

In NASCAR Racing 2003 there is a Online Hardcore Mode with forced Cockpit View.
The drivers are not that much splitted on the Servers as someone said could happen, there are some drivers who only Race on forced Cockpit view Servers, but most drivers also join "free view" Servers aswell. The Splitting of the community is not that much of an issue, in Public Servers most Cockpit View drivers join any Servers, regardless of forced view or not.

Forcing views would be silly, as I use a custom incar view for my dual monitor setup. Unless The Man adds some new incar cams where we can pick which monitor the driving side is on, thrn it would be good

I use cockpit view...it would be nice to have an option as a server host to force a certain view so it's all equall.

The screenshot in the first post, I guess it's easier to play like that...haven't tryed it yet...maybe I should in order to win races...?

BTW: Sick link in your signature STEVE

Guys, I'm all for hardcore mode if practically viable. In fact, I drive in cockpit mode only, because LFS is meant to be a racing simulator. However, unless quality triple pedalled wheel and pedal sets are freely available on the market, its implementation is still questionable at best.

Currently, it's still quite hard to get realistc feeling wheels and pedals. Let's just say that most steering wheels on the market feel like nothing more than underdamped spings. As for 3 pedal sets, I've not seem the mat my local stores yet. I could use 2 pedal sets to use the 2nd set as a clutch, but that is far from ideal.

Quote from Vaillant :

I dont understand this "visual" in a race-sim ( see ... Too Easy.gif )
It's so .... unrealistic!!!
Please give us the opportunity to choose an hardcore mode when we host a game, so to have locked in-car view and no driving aids

It will be a great think too, if rank "understands" if your lap have been played in hardcore mode

UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i only want hardcore mode if lfs gets petty grid-girls

Whatever view you use have NOTHING to do with how good or bad you drive,
so why force it - just to satify some peoples ideal of how LFS should be played????

...silly.

If I would run a league or whatever I wouldn force people to wear f.ex.
red underwear just because I like red underwear.

I would Bo. If you asked me too.

Quote from Funnybear :

I would Bo. If you asked me too.

:bananadea

What? You want me to set my pants on fire too?

Oh. Ok then.

Pass the petrol someone.

Here you go. Want some more mushrooms with it?

No ta. But if you have any Blue Vien Camonbert. That would be nice. I heard it goes a bit pyschotropic after a few months on top o fhte radiator.

Is there any news if a Hardcore Mode is planned or considered to be implemented in on of the next Patches?

The Cockpit viewer, H-Shifter and 3 Pedals user should not have a disadvantage when the final Version of S3 comes out. IMHO There should be a Hardcore Mode for Racers with a full Sim Racing Setup. Such as 3 pedals, cockpit view and H-Shift users (on cars that are supposed to be driven that way)

Giving that the G25 is going to have the first 3 pedal setup on a Mass Market scale, it should be considered to NOT leave the guys driving in a more realistic way on a Grid against guys driving with Arcade Options.

Were there any information from Scawen about this?