Hi everyone, I guess I'm not the only one who thought about it, but I couldn't find anything specific about it.

Everyone agrees, LFS AI is too slow. So why not create more competitive AI cars with GTRs?

We already have with the modders (thanks to them) cars that are faster than the original GTRs (FXO TIME ATTACK, for example). But the AI can't drive them well. So I did a test.

I created more powerful versions of the original game's GTRs for the AI and drove an unmodified car. The races are a little more chaotic, but more attractive. The AI is faster and therefore more competitive.

I only changed the engine power. The AI is more aggressive in a straight line but still just as slow in curves, braking and cornering. And on the 18th lap, the AI feels an irrepressible urge to return to the pits. I'm too bad with setup (and don't have enough time for it) to do this well.

So, I was wondering if someone who knows what to do (i.e., not me) could be able to modify all the parameters of the cars in the game (e.g., GTRs) to create more powerful, but well-balanced models so to make AI more efficient? And possibly equip these new cars with a world champion setup.

I know it's not very realistic to race against twice as powerful cars to compensate for weak AI. And that it's not possible to get something completely satisfying that way. But the race against the AI would be more interesting (while waiting for the new tire physics, which will reset the counters to zero).

Please tell me if what I'm saying is completely stupid .

If it's GTRs, you could give the AI standard cars and you could drive one with reduced tyre width - that'd put the difference in the corners where the AI are weak, rather than the straights where AI are equal.

Quote from Racon :

If it's GTRs, you could give the AI standard cars and you could drive one with reduced tyre width - that'd put the difference in the corners where the AI are weak, rather than the straights where AI are equal.

Hi Racon,
Thank you for your reply. I will try to work on the tires. This will reduce my performance, like driving a car that is less efficient than the AI (as I often do, especially with your PIRAN FIREFLYs which I really like ).

What I'm trying to do is make the AI faster with optimized versions of FXR, FZR and XRR. I would like to speed them up by about 5 seconds per turn. An idea ?

I ride in a homemade cockpit with a real fov in front of a 75-inch 32/9 widescreen placed just behind the steering wheel. It's better with fast cars. Below a certain speed, I feel like I'm at a standstill. I love driving the FZR. I've done versions of FZR that are a little slower than the AI before, but even starting from the bottom of the grid with the default setup, I go up them too fast.

I think it's a very good idea to improve the AI of LFS, in my opinion it's the only thing missing to give it an outstanding grade.

Quote from V_Ro :

I think it's a very good idea to improve the AI of LFS, in my opinion it's the only thing missing to give it an outstanding grade.

You are right. But improving AI is not a priority for developers. This is also not a core community request. So we have to fend for ourselves. The question is how?

For my part, I got around the problem by equipping the AI with more powerful cars than the one I drive. LFS AI is not inherently bad. LFS AI is just too slow. With faster cars, after a few races it's already much better.

This is why making specific cars for the AI seems to me to be a (good?) way to have a satisfying offline more experience.
My problem is that I'm not good enough with mechanics to come up with something balanced to improve the AI other than in a straight line...

For those interested, it works!

I managed to improve AI times by around 6-7%, or 4–6 seconds per lap, on medium tracks like the historic RO course or SO town.

My empirical hunch was that the AI drove the original in-game cars better than the modded ones. And that seems to be true. It only took me a few minutes to create supercharged, stable versions of the original GTRs that don't run out of fuel in the last 3 laps of the race. The gaming experience is completely revolutionized.

Before, I started in thirty-second position. And in 3 laps maximum, I was in first position. My only chance of having an interesting race was to get knocked off the track at least three times. It's fun, but not all the races... Even though I love this game, I would have moved on (that's why I hadn't played LFS for almost 10 years before taking my steering wheel out of the closet).

Now I live in paradise . I have to fight 20 laps with Ai to gain 4 places. In one session, I have already improved my times by a few tenths on my favorite traks. I discover the pleasure of starting from my last position without having to systematically start from the bottom of the ranking so as not to get too bored.

I didn't speed up the AI further because what I got is my current level (I'm playing H-gearbox with clutch using default setup except gearbox). But it is entirely possible to make the AI work even faster with this method.

I can't believe I've been waiting for this for 10 years when it was so easy to drastically improve the AI almost without doing anything! And what works offline can work on servers. Can you imagine the change it would bring if the starting grids were completed with truly competitive AIs? Of course, this solution is not perfect. But while waiting for better...

The bad news is that I did it in a hurry, in a way that prohibits me from publishing it, and I don't have the time or the skills to do better.

Also, I thought that the modder(s) who would bring an official, clean, and common version of a competitive AI would be welcomed as heroes by those who play or train with the AI.

If the modders don't, everyone will polish their stuff in their corner in their own way by all possible and imaginable means. And it's not good for the game or for modders. Let's not forget that the mod system has opened Pandora's box...

I speak under correction but I remember racing on a server, I think it was AA Multiclass, about a year ago and the host/ admin had an AI included in the racing. The AI got better each race as it learnt the lines, not sure how that was done or if that is what the normal LFS AI's can do?

Quote from M3THANOL :

I speak under correction but I remember racing on a server, I think it was AA Multiclass, about a year ago and the host/ admin had an AI included in the racing. The AI got better each race as it learnt the lines, not sure how that was done or if that is what the normal LFS AI's can do?

Hi M3THANOL ,

I can't answer the particular case you mention. It would seem (from my offline experience) that the game's normal AI is capable of improving, within limits. In my experience always, the AI seems to work better and seems faster with some modded cars. Like with your Ford Escort MK1 (off topic: Why did it disappear? It was my favorite car! )

I created a topic to find out how the AI works?
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2032378

I'm glad you're interested in AI. As I said above, I very easily made some very promising experiments from the original GTRs of the game.

I'm 99% satisfied with what I got! The AI is faster than me. Bots are pugnacious. A little too aggressive, but very pleasant. They make normal mistakes (like going off the track due to braking too late after an overly optimistic overtake).
The races are (finally!) exhilarating and lively. You have to hang on behind the AI, optimize your trajectories, get the most out of the car and take risks to overtake. It's very physical and very immersive.
I'm rediscovering the game. And I love it .

But I don't know how to do better. I'm sure a modder as talented as you could do something great just by modifying the characteristics of the originals cars in the game .
So we could have a version of a car to drive for the player and a boosted version of the same car for the AI, to compensate for its lack of performance. This is the idea I followed and it works.

My last problem is that the amount of fuel automatically assigned to the AI is not always adapted to the layout. The AI runs out of fuel on the last lap after a great race... it's frustrating

Awesome, great to hear it works! But you should definitely publish your tweak mods so non-modders can try it out too.

PS: For laps/fuel, you could start the race with a couple more laps than you need to get the AI to fuel a bit more, then change the lap count to the correct amount once the race has started. That should get them to the end. (The only problem I can think of with that is that the replay stops recording when you change the lap count in single-player)

Quote from Racon :

Awesome, great to hear it works! But you should definitely publish your tweak mods so non-modders can try it out too.

I am not legitimate in this role. I suck at setup, engine creation, etc. So, I based myself on the work of the modders: Your work. Nobody is legitimate to appropriate it.

And it works in test mode. With the parameters of the original cars of the game, without the trajectories being recalculated as for the modded cars. But maybe it works too, because with some modified cars the AI performance is more player-like.

What i can say is the result is there: Better motorization for the cars driven by the AI compensates for the weakness of the AI and makes the gaming experience awesome !

Everyone should be able to try this. It's phenomenal . The game is really transformed, full of intensity.

I can tell you very simply what I did and the things that didn't work well. But what I did in minutes, you (the modders) can do like a pro. I don't have the time or the skills to do much better. And I think it's better to have something clean, well calibrated, common to all users. Otherwise, everyone will manage (like me) to tamper with something.

PS: thank you, I will try. So far, I have managed to improve the problem by increasing the capacity of the cars' fuel tanks. But that doesn't always work, depending on the track.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

Hi M3THANOL ,

I can't answer the particular case you mention. It would seem (from my offline experience) that the game's normal AI is capable of improving, within limits. In my experience always, the AI seems to work better and seems faster with some modded cars. Like with your Ford Escort MK1 (off topic: Why did it disappear? It was my favorite car! )

I created a topic to find out how the AI works?
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2032378

I'm glad you're interested in AI. As I said above, I very easily made some very promising experiments from the original GTRs of the game.

I'm 99% satisfied with what I got! The AI is faster than me. Bots are pugnacious. A little too aggressive, but very pleasant. They make normal mistakes (like going off the track due to braking too late after an overly optimistic overtake).
The races are (finally!) exhilarating and lively. You have to hang on behind the AI, optimize your trajectories, get the most out of the car and take risks to overtake. It's very physical and very immersive.
I'm rediscovering the game. And I love it .

But I don't know how to do better. I'm sure a modder as talented as you could do something great just by modifying the characteristics of the originals cars in the game .
So we could have a version of a car to drive for the player and a boosted version of the same car for the AI, to compensate for its lack of performance. This is the idea I followed and it works.

My last problem is that the amount of fuel automatically assigned to the AI is not always adapted to the layout. The AI runs out of fuel on the last lap after a great race... it's frustrating

Would be nice to hear from Scawen just to get an idea of what the current AI can actually do.

off-topic: The escort turned out to be ripped from a game so it had to go.....but its heart and bones live on in my Plover P2200 mod, not sure if you've tried it?

Quote from M3THANOL :

Would be nice to hear from Scawen just to get an idea of what the current AI can actually do.

off-topic: The escort turned out to be ripped from a game so it had to go.....but its heart and bones live on in my Plover P2200 mod, not sure if you've tried it?

I think and hope that Scawen will rework the AI with the new physics. Better AI would sell this game much better. Many players play offline. Anyway, I hope so, otherwise I don't see how this game would be profitable with lifetime licenses and a maximum of 400 people on the servers. And better AI would also work online!

off-topic: Yes I tested your Plover. I had recognized a family resemblance with the Escort. The sound is fantastic. The Plover is good too. It's just a question of feeling, I preferred the Escort because it was more lively and agile. The power ratio was perfectly balanced for my taste. The Plover is pleasant to drive but more soft. I like it to attack hard.

I remember back in the day, when the AI first came out there was a spec that was almost unbeatable. It really went to the limits of the physics and got toned down. I think it was 0.5x 30 or Y, and got fine tuned over the coming patches.

In its current state, I just think the cars need less abrupt inputs at speed, and to push the tires harder in the corners. They don't like sliding all that much!

Maybe it's been affected by all the physics updates since, but they were fun times. I'm sure they could make them stronger, but modding and multiplayer are what really keep this game going so who knows.

I wish it was stronger too cause I don't have much time for practice and need to be quickly available for my young family so pausing is needed. A stronger AI would be great for people like me.

On AA multiclass, I first trained various cars at the same time with AI drivers on my PC for several days till they got nice pth files. Then I loaded them online. Once they started racing against human drivers I guess the pth files were changed a bit. I have no way of verifying it, maybe it's just a placebo, only lfs devs will know this, but so far they have been very quiet about the structure of pth files.

I think, by having open access to these, where we could somehow put our own optimal path for an AI, or fine-tune some PID loop parameters that are used to keep AI on a given path, we could improve them. As someone already said, their control inputs are way too aggressive, so fine-tunning the PID is needed.

For now, I think best is just to put some air restrictions on your car if you really want to race against the same car with AI. But it's probably much better to find some other mod for AI and race against it in a slightly slower car. That would be the easiest workaround at this moment. A good tip is also the thing with using more narrow tires on your car and maybe also a harder compound with less grip.