Quote from Scawen :

*snip*

Intro videos are still a thing, and maybe you could think about making something like that once the new version is imminent, but a music player doesn't really need to be a priority anymore in-game I don't think, for the reasons Martin raised. The only time I use the radio feature anymore is for nostalgia purposes to play 303forever

Quote from mbutcher :

play 303forever

I always prefered "ultra stomper" to be honest. Anyway, I don't think a Music player in this day and age is actually required in the car. If people want music they'll have a player of their choice running in the background anyway. But viccs music needs to stay available as download

Also, I had actually forgotten that there was an intro. Personally this is usually the first thing that I try to disable in a game. I also hate games that have non-skippable intros - those just waste time without any long-term benefit.

On the topic of being "wrongly assumed to be abandoned". It's a hard one. On the one hand I know this is false and that LFS is still being worked on. But on the other hand there are some aspects that are hard to justify to a person that is used to modern games. Some cockpits (FZ50, FXO) really show their age, as do some aspects of the GFX and sound. Online racing (apart from league/organised racing and the good old Blackwood Demo) seems mostly dead to me. I know that this stuff is being worked on hard and false information by youtubers (or similar) doesn't help. There are also videos of people revisting LFS and still saying how easy / fun and good it is.

I think a lot will depend on the next "big" release and maybe the LFS community / devs can prepare some promotional stuff / talking points (also known as PR), videos ahead of time for the release. Or link good videos on the website. The BF1 hype back in the day was huge for instance, or the mods system. This might also help in terms of promotion / sales down the road.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

That's what I often read here. But that doesn't completely match my experience with AI. Scawen may shed us some light on AI programming one day, but it sounds more subtle than what you're describing.

It's true, when you start a first race with the AI, you sometimes have the impression of seeing a train come on a line. But after a few races, that changes. Behaviors become more varied. Lap times improve (a little ). AIs make mistakes. Bots seem to be trying stuff.

When bots are boosted (with more powerful engines on the original cars in the game) all these phenomena are amplified. The AIs double-cross you with rage. They sometimes brake too late and get out. Or get in the way. Sometimes it gets messy but it's often amazing, at least entertaining.

I no longer play online, but I am unable to take a lap on the track alone without getting bored .

I understand that AI is not a priority, but it exists and deserves to be a little better. Many people play against the AI. And a good AI would be better online.

IMHO as ex e-sport player that have competes on asian level, LFS AI lacks of exciting duels, as you can see, even on some occasion, fastest AI holding them back against the slowest AI until finished, and oh if theyre driving equal car, most of the time the car that being overtaken, slowing down for nothing, to be a comparation, I have driving 3 wide against another player on Assetto Corsa just to defend the 5th position, and seeing how AI in LFS racing, it just make me way bored to watch it without any sacrifice on both AIs

Also, AI reactions are too slow, so I personally fine if AI system arent priority to develop, I prefer doing Time Trial rather than race with AI, except if I wanted to practice my racecraft for competitive racing again, which I already quit from it 3 years ago

Quote from ivancsx :

IMHO as ex e-sport player that have competes on asian level, LFS AI lacks of exciting duels, as you can see, even on some occasion, fastest AI holding them back against the slowest AI until finished, and oh if theyre driving equal car, most of the time the car that being overtaken, slowing down for nothing, to be a comparation, I have driving 3 wide against another player on Assetto Corsa just to defend the 5th position, and seeing how AI in LFS racing, it just make me way bored to watch it without any sacrifice on both AIs

Also, AI reactions are too slow, so I personally fine if AI system arent priority to develop, I prefer doing Time Trial rather than race with AI, except if I wanted to practice my racecraft for competitive racing again, which I already quit from it 3 years ago

I observed the phenomenon you describe. It's true that slow AIs slow down faster ones who can't pass them properly. Personally, I partially solved the problem with different car models. I place the AIs with better engines in front and rank them in decreasing power to the last in the grid. The races are more fluid and attractive.
But I agree that playing against the AI is not worth a real race against real pilots. And that the LFS AI can be improved. I just have no other solution at the moment than to play against the AI or alone. I prefer against the AI.
But unlike you, I have no desire to practice my racing skills for competitive racing. I play to relax .

To return to the subject, better AI would also be an asset. Even Iracing have an AI mod.

Quote from Scawen :

do we need the music player at all? Well... no, we don't really need an intro video

I cannot speak for others of course,but personally I never used it - even if hearing the setupscreenloop gives me the nostalgy of first ever tries with LFS,it was disabled pretty much within couple of days using LFS as I always had my music playing on external player (still winamp - yes,I'm that old...). Also skipping intro has become a thing in every single game that allows it - it's something one might want to see only in 1st ever use. Regarding that - surely someone from community would be able to provide a nice intro to give 1st time user a good preview of LFS,but option to disable it is a must.

Since we're talking about video, and for those who haven't seen it. There's a really cool video there.

https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2035863#post2035863

I don't think that's what best represents the DNA of LFS (it's debatable) but undeniably the quality is very good.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

There's a really cool video there.

The video is good for entertainment, but representing LFS being a NFS copy is not great idea.

However I think LFS needs a trailer, maybe played only once as intro when you start the game for the first time.

Something like this but with the new graphics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Db3TwNiU9Q

Obviously ! This is the wrong approach to introducing LFS.

That's why I said, "I don't think that's what best represents the LFS DNA."

On the other hand, from an artistic point of view (and sorry for the authors of the Mods Trailer) it is much more seller. The graphics are almost beautiful. The game is fluid (the cars do not seem to have Parkinson's disease). Editing is dynamic. it makes me want to know more. It doesn't feel like going back 20 years .

Quote from ivancsx :

IMHO as ex e-sport player that have competes on asian level, LFS AI lacks of exciting duels, as you can see, even on some occasion, fastest AI holding them back against the slowest AI until finished, and oh if theyre driving equal car, most of the time the car that being overtaken, slowing down for nothing, to be a comparation, I have driving 3 wide against another player on Assetto Corsa just to defend the 5th position, and seeing how AI in LFS racing, it just make me way bored to watch it without any sacrifice on both AIs

Also, AI reactions are too slow, so I personally fine if AI system arent priority to develop, I prefer doing Time Trial rather than race with AI, except if I wanted to practice my racecraft for competitive racing again, which I already quit from it 3 years ago

AIs certainly will need some polishing or upgrade in behavior, but that as you said yourself shouldn't have high priority.

I had quite some situations while I was testing mods for multiclass.

Regarding music player. I've never listening to music while driving, but music in the menu is a must for me. It is also a good addition when watching the replays.
Intro can be run just once after fresh installation, but after that should be automatically disabled.

Quote from mcmustang :

AIs certainly will need some polishing or upgrade in behavior, but that as you said yourself shouldn't have high priority.

I had quite some situations while I was testing mods for multiclass.

Ai 14 drift better than me

Quote from Flotch :

lol, not playing online does not mean I do not play at all. I am even planning to buy a VR headset for my 40s coming in few days : and the goal is mainly only to use LFS with it ... no time to play frenzy, that's life, but I remain a fan of what LFS is bringing to me when I do few laps even against some AI

You won't regret the VR purchase but note that there is a stuttering thing (something to do with the physics engine/graphics engine update rates if I recall? Someone correct me) going on for now, but once you're immersed it's not too noticeable. I'm in the same position as you and a few laps of VR especially with some of the better mods is very good. In VR, even more so, you really get the "LFS" feeling of the car's mass compared to any other sim w/ VR that I've tried.

RE: Music player... I didn't know there was one lol. Not even sure I am aware of an intro

For the introductory video, why not a competition on the theme: LFS in 2023?

There seems to be talent here .

While waiting for the graphic update, it is possible to build up a replay database and others (mods, skins, synopsis etc.) which can be replayed with the new graphics and transformed into video.

An intro video should be demonstrative of the possibilities of the game, but short. Submissions not selected for this video may then be used to enrich or form a longer documentary for the media when the next update is released.

Quote from Viperakecske :

Ai 14 drift better than me

Haha AI 14 is very impressive

from my part and i think Pete won't mind either, feel free to use some shots from MRc RX champ for the intro vid, and i think we got enough raw footage saved up from other classes to make a pretty great intro vid.

Quote from BeNoM :

Haha AI 14 is very impressive

And with only one tire ! Who said AI was bad? Looks like the bots were waiting for modding to express their talent.

I just want to say that I don't really have any intention to make an intro video player at this time. They always were a problem back in the day - the resolution doesn't match anyone's screen setup, etc. I don't think shipping huge video files and including a codec is necessarily a good idea and I don't relish the thought of a whole load of pointless code (honestly, I don't even know how to make a video player and I'm not very interested to learn). The existing intro being a simple replay had some advantages and that's what I was actually asking about. If there was a unanimous "Yeah intro videos went out at the end of the 20th century and make your game look like a relic from the past" then I might have deleted it. But I'll probably just leave it for now and consider again if I do a 64-bit conversion some time after the release, if it seems difficult to carry the ogg player into the 64-bit era.

Quote from Scawen :

I just want to say that I don't really have any intention to make an intro video player at this time. They always were a problem back in the day - the resolution doesn't match anyone's screen setup, etc. I don't think shipping huge video files and including a codec is necessarily a good idea and I don't relish the thought of a whole load of pointless code (honestly, I don't even know how to make a video player and I'm not very interested to learn). The existing intro being a simple replay had some advantages and that's what I was actually asking about. If there was a unanimous "Yeah intro videos went out at the end of the 20th century and make your game look like a relic from the past" then I might have deleted it. But I'll probably just leave it for now and consider again if I do a 64-bit conversion some time after the release, if it seems difficult to carry the ogg player into the 64-bit era.

IMHO, an intro video is not important. And the next intro replay will be better with the graphics update.

On the other hand, a nice "official" video on the Net would be a good and very simple way to silence the false rumours about the abandonment of the game by the devs. Savvy journalists might imagine tomorrow that the community is behind the tire update .

I mostly skip or deactivate the intro video since it's just the start of the last race you did. Not quite interesting.
But having a good (somewhat professional) trailer for the next big update when it releases would be beneficial.

Regarding AI:
- I wished at least those sudden emergency brakes from the AI when they are slightly squeezed between wall and cars etc. would not happen, those are always cheap unfun overtakes and are triggered way too easily. They also cause "traffic jams" and accidents because they take too long to get to speed again.
- It also would be great if the AI would not try to get the optimal race line right after race start. It causes "traffic jams" and spinning cars, and you overtake like 10 cars right at the beginning .
- Lastly, some better AI behaviour when overlapping other cars would be great since the can get stuck behind slower cars, even on ovals.

If those points would be fixed you could say the LFS AI is somewhat decent, but currently it's not. Back in the day even my six'ish year old cousin would want to switch to racing GTR2 because it provided a more realsitic/fun racing experience.

Nonetheless, I'm not trying to complain or to push Scawen into doing things that are not his priority, just wanted to get those points out there to make it on a ToDo list.

EDIT: For those interested: NASCAR racing 2003 just turned 20 years (too), and it provides great offline racing against the AI.
The excellent youtube channel GPLaps just did a video on it very recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_gKDY3THcE

EDIT: Fixed spelling

Quote from ksa_land :

EDIT: For those interested: NASCAR racing 2003 just turned 20 years (too), and it provides great offline racing against the AI.

This is funny because nr2003 had the best simulation award by bhmotorsports.com that year. LFS was second.

These two are really all that we need. One for oval and the other for road.

Quote from ksa_land :

Back in the day even my six'ish year old cousin would want to switch to racing GTR2 because it provided a more realsitic/fun racing experience.

GTR2's AI wasn't the worst around at the time. Especially on the original track. On modded track, it was often more chaotic.

A nostalgic video on GTR2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnQssvQmsMM

This is the opportunity to appreciate the current graphics qualities of LFS compared to a real 2006 game. LFS is much better on all points. Even if GTR2 already had a day/night cycle, the graphics rendering seems very outdated.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

And with only one tire ! Who said AI was bad? Looks like the bots were waiting for modding to express their talent.

The video doesnt include the fact that the very AI spent 10 minutes trying to get out of grass and doing donuts on the road when it got out. Originally it had only one punctured tyre (front left), with some limping it would have made it the finish but getting out of grass proved to be harder for him than it seemed.

Quote from mcmustang :

The video doesnt include the fact that the very AI spent 10 minutes trying to get out of grass and doing donuts on the road when it got out. Originally it had only one punctured tyre (front left), with some limping it would have made it the finish but getting out of grass proved to be harder for him than it seemed.

I have same's at home. Bots are hollow-headed. But such determination to return to the race commands respect.

Almost everything we say here makes sense as to why LFS got out of the Simracing news?

But to return to the topic (and possibly find remedies), it is not enough to look at (and even less to judge) the evolution of LFS over 20 years. We must also consider what has evolved in the context of simracing over the same period.

Small nostalgic throwbacks to the games that marked the beginning of the millennium are useful. They remind us that at the time enthusiasts had little choice, that they were on the lookout for novelty and the slightest evolution; that they invented modding (in part) because they weren't satisfied with the games; that they practised DIY because gaming peripherals were still non-existent or too expensive.

Today, the market has gone from a niche market to a true mainstream industry. This market is dominated by big titles whose business is licensing. These games sell the illusion that simracing is the hyperrealistic digital reproduction of reality and that everyone can experience a global career as a virtual driver. But that requires racing computers, monthly subscriptions, a great connection, letting shit run in the background while you play, all overpriced pro gear. Under the influence of Iracing, simracing has become a simple money pump in less than 15 years.
Modding too has become flatly reproductive. There is no longer much room for tinkering, fun and creativity.

Without playing the reactionary old fools, with regard to this evolution, the (relative) conceptual stability of LFS seems to me to be an asset. There are few titles left on this model.

Is LFS already (or will it soon be?) the last bastion of freedom in simracing? That is to say, a simulation game (in the broad sense) without frills, which sticks to the essentials, and which allows everyone to live the immersive and enjoyable experience of which they dream. Including being creative (which does not spoil anything ).

I think today it is the big question.

Personally, as a new player in LFS with a demo license who is considering purchasing an S3 license, what drew me to LFS is that it isn't resource intensive and doesn't take up a lot of storage space, as well as its realism and everything else that impressed me. Actually, I play it from time to time, and it's fun, but I see people who aren't interested in buying/supporting the game because it's not really the choice people think because they think it's only cars and nothing else... and because it lacks giving people information about the game's news or what's going on, many of them don't bother checking forums. If information were given easily in the game, people might even stay in the game or even think about buying a license. LFS is really enjoyable without even buying a license, and I think the key to its fun is that its physics are really realistic. I think the fact that it has a demo license is fantastic, even if people get disappointed, its not a common thing, so that is something not to hate on. I don't mean any disrespect to the game, even though I have a demo license, I still enjoy it, and I'm new to the LFS community, so correct me if I'm wrong.