Quote from AttaHorse :

Is it possible to invalidate only the EXACT lap with reverse driving, but NOT the NEXT lap?
That will save the ability to warm up tyres freely, but cheater's hotlaps on 2-split tracks will be still impossible.

I'm still running U9 because the newer Test Patches are optional and personally I want to keep the old speedo. But then I noticed that the hotlaps I did with U9 seem to be invalid in U18+...
I usually do some reverse driving to warm the tires - which is valid in U9 and which is also fine with the hotlap upload script on LFSWorld. However, if someone with Patch U18+ runs the replay, the lap shows as invalid.
Actually this makes the two patches incompatible, I don't know if Scawen is aware of that since the thread title is claiming otherwise.

While I'm at it, I may add I find it a little bothersome not to be able to drive backwards at all. What if you spin and you need to turn the car around? I really like what AttaHorse suggested though:
HLVC should invalidate only the current lap, not the next one. This would preserve the hotlappers ability to warming their tires properly (which already consumes a lot of obligatory time anyway).
An alternative would be to pre-select a tire temperature in the setup itself. This has been suggested before somewhere and I think it could be useful. It would lead to the following advantages:

• smaller replay files (less bandwidth usage)
  
• less fast forwarding for the replay viewer
  
• hotlapper's comfort : less obligatory drifting and sliding before the actual start of the lap

Quote from biggie :

I'm still running U9 because the newer Test Patches are optional and personally I want to keep the old speedo. But then I noticed that the hotlaps I did with U9 seem to be invalid in U18+...
I usually do some reverse driving to warm the tires - which is valid in U9 and which is also fine with the hotlap upload script on LFSWorld. However, if someone with Patch U18+ runs the replay, the lap shows as invalid.
Actually this makes the two patches incompatible, I don't know if Scawen is aware of that since the thread title is claiming otherwise.

Quote from Scawen :

Test patches up to U18 are no longer compatible.
S, T, U, U19, U20 are all compatible and cheat protected.

On page 19 of the cleanup thread.

And the thread title says, its compatible with U, so the title is right.

Quote from biggie :

I really like what AttaHorse suggested though:
HLVC should invalidate only the current lap, not the next one. This would preserve the hotlappers ability to warming their tires properly (which already consumes a lot of obligatory time anyway).
An alternative would be to pre-select a tire temperature in the setup itself. This has been suggested before somewhere and I think it could be useful. It would lead to the following advantages:

• smaller replay files (less bandwidth usage)
  
• less fast forwarding for the replay viewer
  
• hotlapper's comfort : less obligatory drifting and sliding before the actual start of the lap

I would agree with AttaHorse's idea as well, with the current hotlapping system. But I also think that when the next incompatible version comes out, hotlapping should start from the pits. This is as it would be in real life (obviously). The current "start from previous split" was really for the unchanging cars of the pre-S2 times. I think one lap before the hotlap would be good because that's how it would be in reality.

So I'll be having a look to see if I can code up AttaHorse's idea easily, but if it seems to be too difficult for some reason then I may leave it out, awaiting the "start from pits" system.

Quote from Scawen :

I would agree with AttaHorse's idea as well, with the current hotlapping system. But I also think that when the next incompatible version comes out, hotlapping should start from the pits. This is as it would be in real life (obviously). The current "start from previous split" was really for the unchanging cars of the pre-S2 times. I think one lap before the hotlap would be good because that's how it would be in reality.

So I'll be having a look to see if I can code up AttaHorse's idea easily, but if it seems to be too difficult for some reason then I may leave it out, awaiting the "start from pits" system.

With all due respect and while I appreciate your thoughts on this, but the "start from pits" method would make hotlapping really unattractive.
Thinking of Aston GP and the UF1, you'd have to cruise 4-5 minutes first before your lap starts. And then imagine doing a small mistake in T1... not exactly motivating.
While I agree that LFS should be made the most realistic game possible, I don't see what would be gained from starting from the pits in hotlapping mode. I can see everyone viewing the replay fast forwarding the first lap to eventually catch the start of the second lap. Nobody wants to see that boring obligatory tire warming lap! And it really bloats the replay files.
Before implementing this method, you should also think about if this will actually add something positive to the game. Does this encourage competition? Does it ultimately improve immersion? Does this spoil some peoples' fun?

I'm clearly speaking for a minority here. Many people will surely smile at this posting, because they don't have much appreciation for those chasing the clock and not fighting it out head to head with others...
Being one of the few dedicated hotlappers (who do prefer this over online racing), I can see this making me lose interest in LFS. I, for one, do not want to spend my time doing pointless warmup laps, I want to fight the clock and waste as little time as possible with it
I may also add, hotlapping as such is not really realistic, there's hardly any such thing in reality. Maybe the qualifying, but it has a very limited time frame and there's also the race strategy involved in it.

Of course this is your game, your product, you can do whatever you want with it, but I don't really see how adding that "start from pits" method would add to the game.
Please consider my words and think of the minority group in LFS who really play LFS mostly for the hotlapping mode.

i absolutely agree with biggie!
i'm remembering the s1 times when i completed the 100% rank... if that system would have been implemented back then, it would have been an absolute horror to even complete the rank.
and now with more than 700 combos - never

Well Scawen's plan gets the thumbs up from me, hopefully all qualifying sessions will start from the pits also?

I see your point, though, Biggie. I guess laps will be "worth" more if it takes more effort to try and beat them.

Quote from biggie :

With all due respect and while I appreciate your thoughts on this, but the "start from pits" method would make hotlapping really unattractive.
Thinking of Aston GP and the UF1, you'd have to cruise 4-5 minutes first before your lap starts. And then imagine doing a small mistake in T1... not exactly motivating.
While I agree that LFS should be made the most realistic game possible, I don't see what would be gained from starting from the pits in hotlapping mode. I can see everyone viewing the replay fast forwarding the first lap to eventually catch the start of the second lap. Nobody wants to see that boring obligatory tire warming lap! And it really bloats the replay files.
Before implementing this method, you should also think about if this will actually add something positive to the game. Does this encourage competition? Does it ultimately improve immersion? Does this spoil some peoples' fun?

I'm clearly speaking for a minority here. Many people will surely smile at this posting, because they don't have much appreciation for those chasing the clock and not fighting it out head to head with others...
Being one of the few dedicated hotlappers (who do prefer this over online racing), I can see this making me lose interest in LFS. I, for one, do not want to spend my time doing pointless warmup laps, I want to fight the clock and waste as little time as possible with it
I may also add, hotlapping as such is not really realistic, there's hardly any such thing in reality. Maybe the qualifying, but it has a very limited time frame and there's also the race strategy involved in it.

Of course this is your game, your product, you can do whatever you want with it, but I don't really see how adding that "start from pits" method would add to the game.
Please consider my words and think of the minority group in LFS who really play LFS mostly for the hotlapping mode.

+1

but: lets do that idea for qualifying, 1 warumuplap for qualifying would be realistic.
hotlapping has nuttin 2 do with REAL racing. HOTLapping its just the chase to a perfect lap and NOT a qualificationlap. i totally agree with biggie that 1 warmuplap would really destroy the fun in hotlapping couz u waste lot of time...

regards

Quote from sinbad :

Well Scawen's plan gets the thumbs up from me, hopefully all qualifying sessions will start from the pits also?

I see your point, though, Biggie. I guess laps will be "worth" more if it takes more effort to try and beat them.

I'd much rather see effort spent in the right way... which is more actual HOT laps!
I can't see how wasting time on warmup laps makes the following lap more worthy... would you hotlap more because you will be forced to do warmup laps?

+1 for biggie.

implementing a warmup lap in hotlapping mode would completely destroy this part of the game.

Quote from Biohazard :

+1 for biggie.

implementing a warmup lap in hotlapping mode would completely destroy this part of the game.

+1 from here too!

me too

As much as it pains me to suggest unrealistic things for LFS, Biggie does have a point (and he made it well).

How about the Tristan Compromise.

1. All sessions in single player and multiplayer start from the pitlane (except the race, duh. Unless you have outlaps to the grid, pace laps and all that, which I would love (but turn off probably :shy.

2. Hotlapping sessions start from the track. But, to counter needless reverse driving, allow the start position to be configurable. Thus you might want to start Blackwood 400 meters from the start line in the BF1 (say), but just 100 meters in the UF1. Would save time, and allow biggie the chance to show off as he has done so successfully for a while now.

Feel free to throw spanners in the works by thinking of flaws to this system, but as I've only ever done about 10 hotlaps (and they were only luke warm really, though I did have a WR for a whole two days once) I'm not really bothered by it. I'd much rather race than lap against a clock, but I appreciate that some people are different.

Quote from biggie :

I'd much rather see effort spent in the right way... which is more actual HOT laps!
I can't see how wasting time on warmup laps makes the following lap more worthy... would you hotlap more because you will be forced to do warmup laps?

i'm totally with you especially for prewarmed tyres at desired temperature...also there is an escamotage to make this solution totally realistic: it's the way used by the old toca race driver for the "hotlaps" where you needed to prove you are worth a chanche to get in the team...the solution is:

make the hotlap start with car in movement, just before the last split (where hotlaps starts now) handled by AI and leave the control to you in 5 seconds...this way is realistic because it assumes that the car was not teleported, but it was drove from the pits...it's just that such useless time is "warped" and you don't have to do this time waste...what do you think?

Moonforce already said what I was going to say but i'll say it anyway. Hotlapping and qualifying are two seperate things. H-L start from the track, qualifying from pit. The fly in the ointment comes with how many pit spaces are there on any given track? A server with 20 plus drivers would present a problem nez pas?

Quote from Doorman :

A server with 20 plus drivers would present a problem nez pas?

simple ... put everybody in spectator as soon as the qualy begins

(and watch the fun when everybody drops out of spec at the same time)

+1 for biggie

No more hotlapping for me either if need to start doing warmup laps before actual lap

For example think about people who hotlaps hours just for one lap.. With warmup lap there is double as much work to do

+1 for biggie too. Starting from pits may be more realistic, but it's a waste of time and would make hotlapping much less attractive.
And I too don't like the 'no going backwards" rule and I'm sticking to plain U for now. I would have no objections if driving backwards would invalidate only the current hotlap.

once again, agreed on biggie and co. on the hotlapping subject, however starting the quali from the pits should be implented.

Quote from biggie :

I'd much rather see effort spent in the right way... which is more actual HOT laps!
I can't see how wasting time on warmup laps makes the following lap more worthy... would you hotlap more because you will be forced to do warmup laps?

Well firstly I think doing an outlap isn't really all that much of an effort. Secondly, when I said they would be "worth" more, I was stating that because it takes a bit more time and possibly more desire to drive a hotlap on some of the longer courses, any world record laps done on those courses will be stronger, safer, worth more.

I don't think it's as simple as saying the work required will double. Maybe the standard will be slightly lower, people don't risk good laps by pushing 101% etc. You have an hour free, you hotlap, perhaps your lap isn't as fast as might have been because you don't have shift-r to allow you to almost instantly begin another lap. It won't be as simple as having to do another outlap whenever you would have pressed shift-r, you won't screw up as much because you won't risk as much.

I guess we all draw a line somewhere. I don't really care all that greatly, and I won't go on an "I want uber realism" rant. I see what Scawen's thinking is though, things which make us think the cars are actual mechanical things that don't go anywhere unless we drive them there I approve of.

Quote from tristancliffe :

As much as it pains me to suggest unrealistic things for LFS, Biggie does have a point (and he made it well).

How about the Tristan Compromise.

1. All sessions in single player and multiplayer start from the pitlane (except the race, duh. Unless you have outlaps to the grid, pace laps and all that, which I would love (but turn off probably :shy.

2. Hotlapping sessions start from the track. But, to counter needless reverse driving, allow the start position to be configurable. Thus you might want to start Blackwood 400 meters from the start line in the BF1 (say), but just 100 meters in the UF1. Would save time, and allow biggie the chance to show off as he has done so successfully for a while now.

Feel free to throw spanners in the works by thinking of flaws to this system, but as I've only ever done about 10 hotlaps (and they were only luke warm really, though I did have a WR for a whole two days once) I'm not really bothered by it. I'd much rather race than lap against a clock, but I appreciate that some people are different.

+1 (1 & 2) good idea. Idividual start positions would be very useful but hard to implement to every combo i think (sh.. lot of work) but i may be wrong on that. As for the tire temp, it would also be great to set a certain temp for every single tire to lets say 130°C max would be great (depends on tyre types) (or 150° for the bf1/oval, so you have the optimum temprature in the second or third lap). More changes for everybody to do a perfect lap without 1000x spins and drifts and slides .....

ps: maybe a option is available before you start the hotlap, to choose if you want to drive either with or without a warmup lap.

I'm either for the hardcore-sim-approach (starting every session and hotlapping from the pits) or for Tristan's hotlapper-friendly suggestion.

Quote from GP4Flo :

I'm either for the hardcore-sim-approach (starting every session and hotlapping from the pits) or for Tristan's hotlapper-friendly suggestion.

hardcore-sim-approach? ok then lets talk about mouse/keyboard/joystick/gamepad/headmouse drivers. Or what about all the other cams you can drive with? Thats not realistic but that does not count for me as long as noboby gets a pure advantage through that compared to those who drive with wheel as it should be and to those who drive in cockpit only as it should be. From my pov things should be easy as much as possible without loosing the goal of a simulation at all.

I'd go for the AI controlled flying start thing, because i love the simplicity that lfs has atm, i don't want to lose that...i mean, no real loadtimes, simple online interface. The "quick on track" style just rocks atm...don't change that!

Just a quick note : As requested, I have made the "next" lap not be HLVC invalidated by reverse driving (in my version). Only the current lap is invalidated. So that stops anyone using the reverse driving cheat but does not stop them driving the wrong way to warm their tyres. It turned out easy to do, so worth doing it for now as we will still be on a compatible version for some time...

Quote from tristancliffe :

As much as it pains me to suggest unrealistic things for LFS, Biggie does have a point (and he made it well).

How about the Tristan Compromise.

1. All sessions in single player and multiplayer start from the pitlane (except the race, duh. Unless you have outlaps to the grid, pace laps and all that, which I would love (but turn off probably :shy.

2. Hotlapping sessions start from the track. But, to counter needless reverse driving, allow the start position to be configurable. Thus you might want to start Blackwood 400 meters from the start line in the BF1 (say), but just 100 meters in the UF1. Would save time, and allow biggie the chance to show off as he has done so successfully for a while now.

Feel free to throw spanners in the works by thinking of flaws to this system, but as I've only ever done about 10 hotlaps (and they were only luke warm really, though I did have a WR for a whole two days once) I'm not really bothered by it. I'd much rather race than lap against a clock, but I appreciate that some people are different.

Sounds good.