Dear all,

season 2 is getting closer and we (the admin team) are gearing up for you! However, we need your opinion on the following:

To prevent an all-FZR series, we want to balance the championship if it comes to scoring points. Our idea is to take the XRR as the reference, and give the FZR a 'penalty' and the FXR a 'bonus'. For example, if an XRR team wins a race, it will get 25 points (like the first season), if a FXR team wins, it will earn 29 points and if an FZR team wins, it will get 22 points.

The numbers given above are not arbitrary, but are a factor of 1.15 and 0.85 (so 15% up and down). I have based these factors on the following:

If you take the following list as point-table for the XRR:

25
21
18
16
14
12
11
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1

The average amount of points a team would get is

( 25 + 21 +18 + 16 + ... + 3 + 2 + 1 ) / 17 = 10.1

If you take 15% as the 'difference factor', an 'equal' FXR team would earn

7 * 10.1 * 0.15 = 10.6 points more the an average XRR team during a whole season (explanation: 7 = the amount of scoring opportunities, 6 races, of which one counts double).

Now the point of discussion: if you assume two identical teams (in teams of drivers-skill), will those 10.5 points compensate for the car?

To be complete, the attachment shows the points table for the XRR, FXR and FZR (with the second columns the rounded points that would be used).

i realy like the idea! thumbs-up for it well thought out by giving the slower cars also the chance for the championship e.g.

+1.

Like the idea that faster and slower cars are equal to the medium in a way.
It's fair and would make for tighter title races.

Even if you can earn more points with the FXR/XRR, it is still more likely to win with the FZR, cuz it still faster. May be we should try the scoring system for a season!?

I think it's a good idea.

The FZR's wouldn't neccasarily win all the time.

Thats the reason of this topic, would 15% be enough, or too much? Or would we need a whole different way of scoring?
Your thoughts please.

Think so? In LFS GT no other car than FZR won. FXR was second twice. No XRRs.

Sounds like a great idea to get the cars mixed up...But also good point from Andreas there...Also mean if there is FXR on track racing against loads of FZR's and XRR's then FXR is pointless.

I dont get it, will have another look when Im sober.

I think it is an interesting concept and idea, and maybe would work out if all the calculations are done properly.

However, I think your only best bet to have the league work with proper points for everyone is to have the cars balanced. This means we would have to wait for a new patch.... It is the only thing I could suggest, and I am sure you guys would like that too.... but lets just hope we get some balancing very soon? Otherwise, don't blame me if you decide to wait, and it takes another year before we get the classes balanced

Perhaps instead of a points handicap a time handicap would be better, because points don't count in by how much one beat someone else by, or account for how many FZRs there are (in fact it's even worse when there are more of 'em). If the points were awarded equally on basis of positions, but the FXRs and/or XRR would have a realistic time taken off (or FZRs and XRRs added) at the end of the race and then the positions recalculated, maybe it would be more effective.

If I'm allowed to post one more suggestion. How about forcing the FZRs to use R3 or R4 tires? Or would it make any difference?

Interesting idea, but it might not make much of a difference, because you could always run very low tire pressures, and that can help with consistency and control.

XRR and FXR are really very even at the moment. The FZR is the only car that needs to be nerfed.

Quote from Tweaker :

Interesting idea, but it might not make much of a difference, because you could always run very low tire pressures, and that can help with consistency and control.

XRR and FXR are really very even at the moment. The FZR is the only car that needs to be nerfed.

But at least it might balance (even little) the class? I mean, it's easy to make happen, and easy to change if there's a new patch.

Quote :

However, I think your only best bet to have the league work with proper points for everyone is to have the cars balanced. This means we would have to wait for a new patch....

You know how much I am craving for a balancing patch. Unfortunately that is not here yet and on the other hand we do not want to force anybody into a car they don't like. So the idea behind all this is to get a bit of diversity back while still allowing the slower cars a shot at the overall championship. We do know that it is not perfect and that it will not even out all flaws. We simply hope it helps a little bit.

Quote from Hoellsen :

You know how much I am craving for a balancing patch. Unfortunately that is not here yet and on the other hand we do not want to force anybody into a car they don't like. So the idea behind all this is to get a bit of diversity back while still allowing the slower cars a shot at the overall championship. We do know that it is not perfect and that it will not even out all flaws. We simply hope it helps a little bit.

You know what you should do is hold like 5 or so "sprint" races to get some results in and see how it might work out. Basically just do like 5-10 lap races and a few of them so you can see how the points system works. Maybe Frank has thought up of the probabilities and stuff, but this would be interesting to see.

I guess you could just think about it by making up your own results. Like FZR winning 80% of all the races, and FXR only getting top 5 at best for the whole season. Who would win? I am just thinking about this because a hard earned win for the FZR should give a driver/team the benefit and advantage.... a win is a win. A car that hardly places on the podium each race and still has a shot for the championship is not common, if at all.

Maybe they could realise a patch that allows you to change the engine in the FXR and FZR to the XRR power but it is possible to change it to the standard engine power (slow FXR, Fast FZR)

Then you could all use the same engine and it would be even because no one would be faster than each other.

Looks as Misko and Tweak have pointed out why it's so hard to compensate slower cars.
Imo, as the sim looks as it does, I would say: No compensations and let every team choose the car they want. It' impossible to make any compensations fair in this patch. Just run and the one who crosses the line first is first.
If a new patch is released during the season, fine all in the FZR car might loose some, but hey that's life.
Choose your team car when the season starts and stick to it, even if it's a only FZR grid.

What i was thinking to give points out in there respectable class. So best FZR and XRR and FXR gets 25 points, 2nd best FZR, XRR, FXR gets 21 points, etc.

1 Bonus points for fastest lap ( likely to be FZR )
1 Bonus points for pole ( likely to be FZR )
FXR, XRR receive 1 bonus point for every FZR behind them on results

Just a though didnt really thought it through But everything heavily depends on the cars that subscribe i think.

I just wanted to point out that any special point system will fail if there is a patch that evens the GTRs. If the XRR/FXR suddenly becomes a lot closer to the FZR and they get more points for "lesser" positions than the FZR in front of them might get. Also the winning car should always get most points, even if the all the rest are XRRs/FXRs

(I'll go away now )

I think you should just let the point system as it is, so without any balancing of XRR and FXR. Every driver has to live with this "fault" of LFS, that the GTR class isn't equal.
As already said, perhaps there will be the new patch during this season, then it could bring problems with the point system again.
In my case, i would prefere the XRR, though almost everybody wants to drive the FZR, because it's easier to control and also faster.
I'm waiting for the patch!
But i think it would be a fault, to balance the cars by points

greets

Force carrying of passengers, but who would volunteer? blurgh :sour:

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

Perhaps instead of a points handicap a time handicap would be better, because points don't count in by how much one beat someone else by, or account for how many FZRs there are (in fact it's even worse when there are more of 'em). If the points were awarded equally on basis of positions, but the FXRs and/or XRR would have a realistic time taken off (or FZRs and XRRs added) at the end of the race and then the positions recalculated, maybe it would be more effective.

I think that's the most logical and fair solution to the balancing problem. Using different point scales won't do anything when FZRs still win all the time. Using R4 for FZR might or might not work, that would be up to testing.

But giving a time bonus per lap for FXR and XRR would be reasonable, I think. The bonuses could be based off the WR lap times. So if the FZR has a WR time of 1:30, XRR of 1:31 and FXR of 1:31.5, then XRR would get 1 and FXR 1.5 seconds bonus per lap.

if u realy want to make it fair like that....just dont let them use the FZR?