EDIT: This thread is now obsolete.
A new triangle budget of 4240 is shared between spoke and rim objects
You can get the new editor in the Editor Test Patch Thread


I recently learned that some people discovered a hack that allowed them to exceed the triangle limits for spoke objects.

The mod checker now makes sure you do not exceed triangle limits when uploading a mod.

There shouldn't be any need to exceed the limit of 1600 triangles per spoke object.

The trick is... do not include the rim in the spoke object!

Use the RIM EDITOR to make the rim.
Use the SPOKE EDITOR to make the spokes.

The rim editor has been updated in the recent update. I did a lot of work on it and it is a lot better than in the original LFS Editor. You create the cross-section of a rim by adding points and connecting the points with surfaces. The rim uses the first mapping from the spoke object, so you can use any material settings you wish (including a texture if you like).

There is a new guide in the rim editor that shows the cross-section of a steel rim when you are in the rim editor. The idea is that the steel rim represents the minimum amount of material. Alloys have thicker metal and exceed the steel rim outline.

These two images show the sequence for setting up a realistic rim.

EDIT: Added 3 more images showing examples of steel rim and two (of many) possibilities for alloy rims.

First set the correct rim width.


Then edit the rim, making sure you cover the steel rim profile.


An example of a steel rim style:


Alloy example 1:


Alloy example 2:

I used it on some of my mods (aiming for a better looks), which I will update soon, so they won't exceed the limit.

I always thought you knew and it was OK if someone exceed the limit a little bit.

Can we have it at least double that for bikes? Because wheel is visible from both sides unlike cars and only 2 wheels instead of 4.

Some of my bike wheels are right on the limit while the more interesting spoke design of Chimera is double the limit. I could optimize it a bit more but not that much. Before i exceeded the limit on those rims i tried simpler design and it looked awful.

What happens with mods already uses those modded rims?

Quote from Evolution_R :

I always thought you knew and it was OK if someone exceed the limit a little bit.

A little bit? Yesterday the system detected an individual spoke object with over 11,500 triangles, which is more than enough for a whole vehicle.

Quote from Drifteris :

Can we have it at least double that for bikes? Because wheel is visible from both sides unlike cars and only 2 wheels instead of 4.

Have you learned to use the rim editor properly? This is not clear from your reply.

1600 triangles for some spokes is way more than enough.

Quote from LUNDQUIST MOTORSPORT :

What happens with mods already uses those modded rims?

The hacked mods that are already uploaded have not been detected, so everyone else can continue to experience the associated frame rate hit (admittedly this is probably not noticeable for most people in the current graphics system) and the pit-out glitch (slower generation of the mod when exiting the pits).

I used the "hack" to import the whole rim instead of a single spoke, it was easier to work with, but now that you enforced the polycount to 1600 per spoke its not possible anymore. Too bad cus i was going to release my next mod in next week or 2.

Hey Scawen,

We understand the benefits of the rim editor, but for me ive never been a huge fan of how it functions in its current state although in concept is great. In spoke editor, you can continue to extrude circle points again and again and finish a fully stepped lipped rim nice and clean with a good rim edge and bead while moving the camera around and then texturing how you want + sometimes ive deleted triangles in the lips for air valves or other rare cases (creating odd vintage rare wheels)

When using the rim editor, you have to

- no extrusion function to continue building surface, same as an exhaust system (rim editor is pretty minor so this is more just something that ive been used to for modelling/ time saver if small)
- Cant select multiple points with square selection like spoke editor (if i recall)
- no camera movement so if you want to zoom in or out, you cant.
- texturing was always odd, i seen the rim can now have more texture freedom recently so that was beneficial
- No point connection to actual wheel, so rim to wheel triangle connections just clip through each other sometimes gives weird connection lines depending on poly quality in the spoke editor. You notice the triangle lines were the wheel face meets rim.
- Sharing wheels online means now sharing the Rim+Spoke+png files.


I should say though the rim editor has had some new updates and the quality you can get now from rim editor is much greater, and it is pretty quick and easy to create a good rim exactly the same as i mention in Spoke Editor without having to use a lot of poly to create and smooth circle + every extrusion ups the triangle count.

It seems ive writen a huge paragraph, so ill try and sum it up as the current system (spoke + rim) functions really well & optimized… And i know some people in our community are not as fortunate for greater pc hardware… but its now 2024* and the poly count for wheels being 1600 was pretty low, hence the work around. 11500+ is steep as its 40k together… but i know mods with higher poly cars or wheels and never heard complaints in 40+ host is full hanging out in “Just a Ride”. I’ve actually mainly heard frame complaints from max prop limit touge layouts we’ve raced on xD.

Thanks for listening to my ted talk, hopefully you’ve all enjoyed ❤️

*building or buying a secondhand pc that can run lfs is fairly obtainable. If someone disagrees or their conditions are different that’s completely okay, but then they probably dont have the cash then to drop on a old racing game anyways and will stick to demo maybe S1 or ask for S3 in the LFS discord lol

Quote from Scawen :

Have you learned to use the rim editor properly? This is not clear from your reply.

1600 triangles for some spokes is way more than enough.

I wouldn't call it "way more than enough", i'd say it's "just enough". I don't try to make them high poly, just to look good enough but it's always around the limit. One wheel i made for new mod is around 1400, so just enough, even though it's set as hub object anyway.

Also i never included the rim into the spoke model. Center core could be deleted but then transition from spokes to center core is sharp. Also this is rear wheel, front wheel center core is more exposed.

But anyway, for Chimera i relocated spokes to hub sub objects so all is good.

Hey Scawen,

Expanding on the above...

I've spent this morning doing some research into different rims within LFS now that the limits are being enforced.

I've attached a sheet that I've looked at some of the staff picks, approved, and unapproved mods with triangle count for the rims, whether they are using the rim editor to it's potential, or if they opt to use the hub obj.

I believe that the 1600 tri limit is way too low for any reasonable amount of detail. Especially if you want to include some details like better lug nuts, or bolts around a 3 piece wheel. Texturing doesn't cut it, tried that method. Using a hub obj doesn't always cut it either, unless you designed the mod with that in mind from the beginning, many mods are already 60k+ tri. I'm sure this was plenty when designing the XRT at 8k tris total for the mod.

Compared to the main mod that has the limit of 65k, the rim detail doesn't match the quality we can do in the main mod.

As for the right amount of tris, I think 4096 would be enough to provide the detail that we are trying for (maybe others can chime in here), especially after working so hard within the 65k limit for the main mod to provide as much detail as efficiently as possible. For example, I aim to have base models at around 50k tris, to allow for modifications like body kits, and other detailed accessories that are part of drifting and racing.

If there is a concern for upping the limit, it seems that people have been skirting around the system since the limit is too low. Since avoiding the whole check, there could be rims at even 22k tri, resulting in 88k tri total, agreed that is far beyond what lfs was designed for and can cause issues with pit lag, which is compounded when mods have configs that go above 65k tri max...

When you mentioned that there was a high poly count in one spoke, often modders will import from blender which contains the whole rim, and just use "1 spoke", this is especially true when the rim has say 6 spokes, but only 5 lug nuts, which using the spoke system doesn't really work for.

Again, I'd love to embrace native tools, and work with the system, but I think the limit needs to be increased before any take up from the modders. Maybe a staged approach could be considered, from 1600 to 3200, to 4096, or above.

It's not the time to talk to me about changing the limits. I am working on other things and could do without a battle against mod hackers.

The rim editor updates were introduced during the test patch stages. It would have been good to discuss it at that time, as you may know that is what test patches are for. To introduce updates and test them. The idea of a test patch is not just to keep quiet and hope I don't notice the use of hacking tools, which I admit I have been slow to notice.

There is a rim editor, a spoke editor and there are also hub objects, that you are free to use within the limits.

Hi Scawen, how are you? 1600 is very very little for rims, why can a car look nice and the wheels must be bad looking for it with 1600 max limit. How do you imagine wheels with a limit of 1600 for a beautiful model? https://img1.cgtrader.com/items/1898712/d632894656/large/wheel-3d-model-low-poly-obj-3ds-fbx-c4d-dxf-stl.jpg ? Like these to a pretty car I don't think is a good idea I hope that someday the limit will be increased.

Quote from Scawen :

It's not the time to talk to me about changing the limits. I am working on other things and could do without a battle against mod hackers.

The rim editor updates were introduced during the test patch stages. It would have been good to discuss it at that time, as you may know that is what test patches are for. To introduce updates and test them. The idea of a test patch is not just to keep quiet and hope I don't notice the use of hacking tools, which I admit I have been slow to notice.

There is a rim editor, a spoke editor and there are also hub objects, that you are free to use within the limits.

I did bring up that I hit the limits very easily, and if it was fixed, there would be a much better response from the community as per here: https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2066938#post2066938

I do understand test patches, and their purpose, as these changes are occurring outside of the test patches, it's still worth discussing at least?

Well you can discuss amongst yourselves, but I am only one programmer and I think the priority is completing the new graphics and physics version. Limits were discussed and set long ago. Unfortunately, hackers learned to get around the limits. I've spent the last two years working on improvements for mods, delaying the big release that everyone wants. I worked right up to the limit of my health before the Christmas holidays, to allow me to get back to the main task.

Now I have learned half the mod creators use a hack to bypass the limits, while other people complain about glitches when people leave the pits. My job is to make sure that doesn't happen, then get back to what I am supposed to be working on. The game is supposed to run smoothly and that is the most important thing.

I'm not going to drop what I am working on to continue working on more updates for mods. I hope you understand.

Quote from Scawen :

Well you can discuss amongst yourselves, but I am only one programmer and I think the priority is completing the new graphics and physics version. Limits were discussed and set long ago. Unfortunately, hackers learned to get around the limits. I've spent the last two years working on improvements for mods, delaying the big release that everyone wants. I worked right up to the limit of my health before the Christmas holidays, to allow me to get back to the main task.

Now I have learned half the mod creators use a hack to bypass the limits, while other people complain about glitches when people leave the pits. My job is to make sure that doesn't happen, then get back to what I am supposed to be working on. The game is supposed to run smoothly and that is the most important thing.

I'm not going to drop what I am working on to continue working on more updates for mods. I hope you understand.

Just leave what was current, its been like this for the past couple years, bringing more people to the platform with quality mods!

Doing a blanket mod ban and unpublish affects approved mods, which im not sure if some modders are still as active or are motivated enough
To re-do their mod creation. We stick with this old game because we like the physics, community & ease of use before modding was a thing!

We model brand new vehicle creations (even downloaded models take weeks to develop to be quality) taking weeks & months to provide free content for you guys to capitalize from,
Feels like were always being fought against. If you can see that our/customers perspective we just want to make cool stuff.

Many have switched long ago iracing, assetto, dirt, forza, etc etc. Check the comments on LFS update videos lol
“this game is still alive?” Yea were still here

Focus on the main updates. if it aint broke, why fix it. Its your game though 👍🏼

I have been working as an industrial designer for over 10 years, (primarily modeling) I model all my mods myself. I hope this makes you aware that I know what I'm talking about.

Quote from Scawen :

A little bit? Yesterday the system detected an individual spoke object with over 11,500 triangles, which is more than enough for a whole vehicle.

Even in the mobile gaming industry, racing games the limits are higher than 11k tris for car. Unless the graphics are stylized to low poly. In modern PC simracing games LFS has the smallest amount of polys right now.

Quote from Scawen :

Have you learned to use the rim editor properly? This is not clear from your reply.

1600 triangles for some spokes is way more than enough.

I wouldn't say that, my slogan is beauty in the details. The more details, the more realistic the mod looks. I can working with a 65.5k limit on a car (But sometimes I wish there was more). But 1600 for spokes, that's too low for many cases. Yes, if your spokes are 5-6 relatively straight sticks, there's nothing complicated here. (and even then we won't see modeled nuts and air valve there...and the constant use of hard edges with is not good for realism) but if the spokes are more complicated, that's where it gets tricky and there's a loss of details to get to the limits. And I have no idea what to do if you have to make rims with complex designs like BBS. You'll have to make a lot of sacrifices in the form of giving up some details like pattern in middle and nuts.

In my mod, I had to remove the nuts and add them as hub obj and use a hard edges. Hard Edges are bad because they literally don't exist in reality, which is why it often looks weird. There is no object in real world that converges towards the edge with a 90 degree surface, everything has a chamfer. For example, on the picture with the real rim on which I used as a reference clearly visible chamfer on the spoke, which has a specific shine that makes this rim even more beautiful, this shine is impossible in LFS with hard edges (with different color groups). But it is possible with a chamfer (bevel). Also in blender hard edges should be "looped" that it would be correctly transferred to the LFS editor as it is converted to color groups and that makes it even harder to use. (in blender shading it is not necessary to loop the hard edge to see the result) Instead, I prefer to use the bevel with additional edges wherever possible..But the limitation on spokes makes this almost impossible. And that's not even taking into account other rims with complex designs.

EDIT: I made a version my spokes with nuts and bevels in necessary places and I got 3.7k..

Sorry but im gonna be outspoken a little bit now. LFS is the only game in the world that restricts it's modders and it's community this too much... yet you made such an action again. If hackers finds a way to get around the limit, then make their efforts useless with "at least" trying to increasing the limits instead of fixing it down to 1600. You are not limiting the polygons only, you are limiting variety of rim types and designs. Not much, at least something like 3200 is all we want. We all too don't agree such ridiculous amounts like 10-20k. But now we must put "bluetooth wheels" to our cars. Is it really okay to affect the most because of few? In 2024 it’s so cheap and easy to get a laptop pc that can run lfs without a graphics card. Is it really this much hard to listen what your community says or thinks once? Probably my comment will be deleted by mods, doesn't matter what i say, doesn't matter what this community thinks and wants. Let it be.

Quote from AR92 :

Sorry but im gonna be outspoken a little bit now. LFS is the only game in the world that restricts it's modders and it's community this too much... yet you made such an action again. If hackers finds a way to get around the limit, then make their efforts useless with "at least" trying to increasing the limits instead of fixing it down to 1600. You are not limiting the polygons only, you are limiting variety of rim types and designs. Not much, at least something like 3200 is all we want. We all too don't agree such ridiculous amounts like 10-20k. But now we must put "bluetooth wheels" to our cars. Is it really okay to affect the most because of few? In 2024 it’s so cheap and easy to get a laptop pc that can run lfs without a graphics card. Is it really this much hard to listen what your community says or thinks once? Probably my comment will be deleted by mods, doesn't matter what i say, doesn't matter what this community thinks and wants. Let it be.

Lfs is also the only car game with such a big mod repository available in realtime on multiplayer servers. Obviously there has to be a sensible limit to how much complexity you can add to a mod since it has to be able to download for all clients without interrupting the game experience. With that being said I do agree that 1600 is cutting it pretty close for some more complex wheel designs. 2000 sounds good to me.

Quote from pärtan :

Lfs is also the only car game with such a big mod repository available in realtime on multiplayer servers. Obviously there has to be a sensible limit to how much complexity you can add to a mod since it has to be able to download for all clients without interrupting the game experience. With that being said I do agree that 1600 is cutting it pretty close for some more complex wheel designs. 2000 sounds good to me.

+400 polygon will not save anything enough i suppose, yet some particular value types in programs should be power of 2 or something y'know.

This is nothing new. There is an age-old battle between artists and programmers. Even though they are working together to make great things, sometimes there is a conflict of priorities.

Artists always want "more polygons!" but programmers must define limits and work within boundaries. Game artists have traditionally learned to be skillful with low polygon modelling. Although "low polygon" is a crazy term for 1600 triangles, I guess "low" is a relative term and it just means low compared with what you would hope for in an ideal world.

Artists may look at their model as if it is a single vehicle on a screen, but the programmer immediately imagines 48 cars on the grid, rendered multiple times (in mirrors, shadow maps, multiple layers for headlights, etc). It's not all about the current simple version which could take more triangles, it's also about the future version with more complex graphics.

I'm not interested in creating a slide show. It's a racing simulator and we want smooth frame rates, so there are limits. Now is not a good time to start experimenting with limits that were established in the early days of our mods system.

Conflict of what priorities? Few people that who still has old pc in 2024? Even some game developers and companies removes support from old devices when its needed. Only for fixing some small temporary fps drops when leaving from pits? Even after moving a little it gets smooth again in any average pc or laptop. What's the point then to put more complex graphics if our cars will not look good with them or if the game reached already to limits of possibilities that game engine permits? Is this game engine really weak this much to handle just only little bit more- just 2000 or 3200 tris? One of my mods has 480 tri for single spoke and can't really find a way to reduce it more without losing details, and cuz of this, it only permits to increase it to 3 spokes yet i need 5 more to complete a old steel rim, and it looks like this:

Quote from AR92 :

Only for fixing some small temporary fps drops when leaving from pits?

Very fun when this happens 4-5 times per lap when you're trying to qualify or practice for a race...

Quote from johneysvk :

Very fun when this happens 4-5 times per lap when you're trying to qualify or practice for a race...

Is it really neccessary to fix that with limiting possibilities on such vital part of the car? Isn't there any other way to optimize the game? Yet i don't have any issues like that.

i can't really say if whether or not this particular limit is sufficient, but i think it's a good approach from a design standpoint to optimize as much as possible to ensure smooth gameplay.

This might just one thing, but then you might run into something else and not optimizing that, you now have 2 things that don't work efficiently, it can add up and result in a horrible mess.

Quote from AR92 :

One of my mods has 480 tri for single spoke and can't really find a way to reduce it more without losing details, and cuz of this, it only permits to increase it to 3 spokes yet i need 5 more to complete a old steel rim, and it looks like this:

You can surely optimize that a lot more imo. It's really simple design, it shouldn't need that many tris. Suppose the holes are way too smooth.

Quote from Drifteris :

You can surely optimize that a lot more imo. It's really simple design, it shouldn't need that many tris. Suppose the holes are way too smooth.

I'm not really sure this fits to "way too smooth" definition: