Dear Mod Creators,

I can't get my head around why people insist on doing a terrible LOD2.

I get it, you don't have 30 mins spare to do it properly. But please DON'T get LOD1 and delete polygons until it's under the extreme limit.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO ADD LOD2 (but if you do it should have below 1000 triangles or so)

While you are waiting for 30 mins in your busy schedule at some time in the next few weeks, for now just DON'T DO LOD2.

We've explained it several times, we have special thread about it and an LFS Manual page.

You are making life complicated for yourself and making a bad mod, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO!

Just read this, you'll know what to do. Please work with us, not against us.

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/106736

I'm trying to finish dealing with mod issues, so I can work on the graphical version. Please help by doing the right thing.

Im working to fix the cars that has bad LOD2 and rims they are moved to "saved" is there somehow i can download the original files from the forum? ( i dont have them in editor folder anymore bcs new pc )

Quote from LUNDQUIST MOTORSPORT :

Im working to fix the cars that has bad LOD2 and rims they are moved to "saved" is there somehow i can download the original files from the forum? ( i dont have them in editor folder anymore bcs new pc )

It can be done from the mod submission link.

Example of my mod (private link):

https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/submit/7AC9E1/saved

If you remove the "/submit" part, you should be able to enter the mod details page and click "Download original archive" there.

https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/7AC9E1/saved

This might be the perfect time to ask. What is the recommended amount of tri(s) for everything?

We have the 1k answer for LOD2. What about LOD1,LOD3 and tyrespoke+rims combined?

I don't really want to lay down the law as such, but maybe a good guide would be our most recently updated car, the RB4 GT.

Eric is an artist and like most artists he would like to use more polygons, but he is also a game developer so tries to do what he can without being excessive with the numbers.

There are other ways to optimise models too, for example by using one texture page for several cutouts, within reason and when that is convenient (not possible for 'repeating' textures).

Note that "attachment" subobjects are merged into the main object so it's a good idea for attachments to share texture pages with the main object too (when convenient) as if they were part of the main object.

Also, most cars should have "Concealed driver" enabled. Driver not concealed is only needed for things like karts and bikes (when you can see the driver's body from a long distance away). ordinary road cars have concealed driver and this is a significant CPU saving. This setting does not affect the helmet, which is drawn anyway.

Quote from LUNDQUIST MOTORSPORT :

Im working to fix the cars that has bad LOD2 and rims they are moved to "saved" is there somehow i can download the original files from the forum? ( i dont have them in editor folder anymore bcs new pc )

Quote from Flame CZE :

It can be done from the mod submission link.
...
If you remove the "/submit" part, you should be able to enter the mod details page and click "Download original archive" there.

I've made a small update to the page View your own vehicle mods to help with this.

In tabs 'Saved' / 'Changes required' / 'Published' there is now a VIEW DETAILS link below each mod's image.

So it's easy to go to your mod's info page where you can find "Download original archive".

For the record, I've created a LFS manual page about mod optimisations where I summarized Scawen's recommendations:

https://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/LFS_Editor/Guides/Optimisations

Also the LOD guide page has been updated with information about the limits.

You first wrote that LOD2 limit is 8192 and then in next sentence that it is 1000. You probably meant LOD3 limit is 1000?

Flame is correct. The hard limit that the exporter will allow for LOD2 is 8192, but it is a bad target. A sensible target is around 1000 triangles.

It is common (generally, not only in game editors) for a sensible target to be much less than the legal limit.

However, I am still considering the possibility of bringing the legal limit for LOD2 down to something sensible. In the early days I didn't realise how important it was to be strict about enforcing sensible limits. Maybe the LOD2 limit should really be 2048 or so.

I see, tnx for explanation. How much is a hard limit for LOD3 then?

Quote from Scawen :

Maybe the LOD2 limit should really be 2048 or so.

That would start the 2nd wave of mods killing...

Quote from rane_nbg :

I see, tnx for explanation. How much is a hard limit for LOD3 then?

The limit for the physics LOD, whether it is in LOD2 or LOD3, has always been:
Vehicle: points 24 / triangles 42
Object: points 32 / triangles 60

Quote from Eclipsed :

That would start the 2nd wave of mods killing...

There's no mod killing, just a request for people to fix their hacks and help make a good racing / online experience. We don't want to host poorly made lazy mods on our system. There's no need for shoddy work.

Let's not pretend there's something good about people making LOD2 a duplicate of LOD1, or a pointless empty LOD2, or single wheels with more polygons than 9 Raceabouts, or LOD1 with an "export only - do not use" config with half the model deleted, only to cheat the limit.

I personally don't object optimization (even if I'm personally not stroken with it - had no framerate problems even in the badly famous Deene massacre),using hacks to avoid limits is surely a no go from my point of view,however I would suggest not to go extra limiting because of these who used hacks.

Well, if some people didn't take a sensible approach to creating a LOD2 model, despite examples and explanations, then if we need to enforce a sensible limit and that means people finally have to do the right thing, that's not really a problem in my view.

It may have to be done. My mistake for not setting a limit in the first place, mod creators' mistake for not taking a sensible approach. The outcome... just fix it.

Remember, we have a new graphics version we would like to release relatively soon and in there are shadow maps which mean any cars in view are drawn multiple times so poorly made mods will become more of a problem.

Quote from Scawen :

Well, if some people didn't take a sensible approach to creating a LOD2 model, despite examples and explanations, then if we need to enforce a sensible limit and that means people finally have to do the right thing, that's not really a problem in my view.

It may have to be done. My mistake for not setting a limit in the first place, mod creators' mistake for not taking a sensible approach. The outcome... just fix it.

Remember, we have a new graphics version we would like to release relatively soon and in there are shadow maps which mean any cars in view are drawn multiple times so poorly made mods will become more of a problem.

I understand you guys are really busy to get all work Done and you are sling it good ! It is the best easy acces both racing drifting and making mods

Is there something you guys wants help with ? Like reviewing mods etc im Willing to help if i can do anything

Quote from LUNDQUIST MOTORSPORT :

I understand you guys are really busy to get all work Done and you are sling it good ! It is the best easy acces both racing drifting and making mods

Is there something you guys wants help with ? Like reviewing mods etc im Willing to help if i can do anything

Anyone can already help with reviewing mods. It is a public review system.

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/97379-Public-Review-System

Quote from Scawen :

Flame is correct. The hard limit that the exporter will allow for LOD2 is 8192, but it is a bad target. A sensible target is around 1000 triangles.

It is common (generally, not only in game editors) for a sensible target to be much less than the legal limit.

However, I am still considering the possibility of bringing the legal limit for LOD2 down to something sensible. In the early days I didn't realise how important it was to be strict about enforcing sensible limits. Maybe the LOD2 limit should really be 2048 or so.

Scawen, if you going to lower LOD2 limit to 2k then don't do it randomly whenever and at least tell when you gonna do it. Because I and probably many others have worked within current limit of LOD2 that is 8k and now mods would get unpublished which resets raitings back to 0 btw. I'm working on lower poly LOD2 but it will take some time as i don't want to just have a box LOD2 that will look shit for shadow and randomly change to box at further distance.

Yes, I agree a reduction in the limit shouldn't be done without public discussion and fair warning. And maybe shouldn't be done at all. Maybe 8192 isn't so bad. It's just something I want to think about a bit more.

I'm interested to understand more about the difficulties in creating a good LOD2. I imagine some different approaches, mainly based on either:

1) Reducing a copy of LOD1, or:

2) Building a low polygon model from scratch based on the points and mappings of LOD1.

I don't know if any simple editor tools might help a lot with the process.

I understand the issues that unnecessary complicated (with excessive tris), poorly made LOD2 cause to mod players.
Since I get the point of what LOD2 exactly do, although it takes time I'm trying to build it properly.
I believe 80-90% of mods can fit to 1k or 2k tris on LOD2.
But I can agree with @Drifteris
My PC specs are pretty outdated and I don't have much FPS (~50-60) on multiplayer on Rockingham for example.
But still.. I think that 8k tris limit for LOD2 it's OK and gives freedom to mod creators.
I think current 8k limit can be useful for vehicles those have extras like: roofrack, pushbar, lightbar, spoilers, driver shape for bikes and so on.. They are like outside of the car body shape and have to be visible from distance and create a proper shadow.

Maybe i'ts more up to mod reviewers to require sensible mod build from creators and better standards before pulishing it as I notice they do in last days.
Mods can be updated after they are published and approved. I had seen on custom access mod real life logos added after publishing. All kind of stuff can be messed.

Idea to add something like 'Report mod issue' button in forum, side of comments, where forum users can (anonymously for other users) report serious problem with the corresponding mod. For example: ''Undriveable on wheel'' or ''This car have no shadow''.
Mod reviewers can see these reports and are they relevant and moved to 'Changes required' if is needed.

I hope all of that makes sense to you. Cheers!

Quote from Scawen :

Yes, I agree a reduction in the limit shouldn't be done without public discussion and fair warning. And maybe shouldn't be done at all. Maybe 8192 isn't so bad. It's just something I want to think about a bit more.

I prefer to reduce the poly count of LOD1 model in Blender by dissolving edges manually, usually takes ~ 2 hours to do it properly with my set of skills.

But since in the new graphical version, where shadows generation will be based on the visible LOD, while leaving LOD2 only for optimization at distance and soft shadows, so I guess there won't be needed a more detailed LOD2 anymore.

My mods currently have LOD2 at around 1100 tris and I don't plan or have a need to increase that. For the bikes that might be different, don't really know.

In old times when we had 1000 polys for a whole car we would be happy.

If we check how it was done back then :
- we have a high poly model, we photoshoot it (printscreen) from big distance with long focal (big zoom so perspective are flatened), front, back, left, top side
- cut front, left back...textures from this.
- then we build a proper very low poly mod following the high poly outlines, starting from a subdivided box usually, or very crude retopo
- then we map the box with previously made textures.

In the end a LOD2 will be drawn on a very very small number of pixels so the textures dont need high resolution, 256*256 or even 128*128 will be more than enough.

That is easy enough and gives good enough results for something convex that u will see from afar. Most of mods would do that below 1000 polys.

For bikes, cranes and complicated shapes that matter a lot for the shadows, it will be a bit more tedious and will need quite more polys to get good results for shadow, but still, that's much faster than building a detailed LOD1. Maybe some polygon reduction tool would be more efficient here.