Bottomline, its as real as you can get by sitting in front of a PC at this point in time.

That said, it's not really anything like racing IRL, nothing is, except racing IRL.

Dan,

Quote from danowat :

Bottomline, its as real as you can get by sitting in front of a PC at this point in time.

That said, it's not really anything like racing IRL, nothing is, except racing IRL.

Dan,

Yeah mate - I thank god LFS isn't as terrifying as real life racing. If it was I wouldn't play!

Hehehe, yeah....

There is just so much more physical feedback from a car when racing that cannot be portrayed that driving a sim loses a lot.

I personally don't think there is much you can learn in a sim that you can't learn from reading books on the subject.

Being good IRL doesnt neccesarly make you a good LFS player, being a good LFS player doesnt neccesarly make you good IRL.

LFS is still the best / closest you can get on a PC / console.

Dan,

Quote from danowat :

Being good IRL doesnt neccesarly make you a good LFS player,

I'm living proof of that!

With regards laptimes and karting I've found that it's the lightest people who are often fastest.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

I'm living proof of that!

With regards laptimes and karting I've found that it's the lightest people who are often fastest.

Totally O/T, is this why Dan is buying a BUSA, he's been eating all the pies

Sorry for that.... couldn't resist

Andrew

Quite the opposite my friend, that was the single reason we (Fordie and I) came last in the karting the year previous, I was a fat, bloater.........

Since then I have lost 6+ stone, so I am a streamlined dynamo, watch me go on the next karting event .

Dan,

Quote from danowat :

Quite the opposite my friend, that was the single reason we (Fordie and I) came last in the karting the year previous, I was a fat, bloater.........

Since then I have lost 6+ stone, so I am a streamlined dynamo, watch me go on the next karting event .

Dan,

6 stone - wow. I've lost 2 and a half stone over the last 6 months - can't eat wheat or dairy anymore . Can't wait for the next time I go karting though. I'm gonna be flyin'

It least some good has come from my food intolerance.

Quote from danowat :

Quite the opposite my friend, that was the single reason we (Fordie and I) came last in the karting the year previous, I was a fat, bloater.........

Since then I have lost 6+ stone, so I am a streamlined dynamo, watch me go on the next karting event .

Dan,

Don't drop too much weight, because, you'll need a bit of bulk to hang on and turn the beast.

Anyway enough jibberish back om topic

EDIT: The BUSA not the kart!

Quote from mrfell :

Don't drop too much weight, because, you'll need a bit of bulk to hang on and turn the beast.

Anyway enough jibberish back om topic

EDIT: The BUSA not the kart!

Very true - I have to hang off my gixer much more now I lost the weight.

Quote from mandalman :

I think to be realistic we need an USB aural device to make the computer smell of hot oil and burnt rubber and there needs to be a dodgy burger van for sustenance in the pit lane - Any chance of these in the next upgrade please?

To be realistic imho a game would need "feelable g-forces". Not that active seat crap. But that´s impossible so imho gaming can´t be realistic at all. The skill of a gamer says nothing about his skill in real cars. Maybe the other way. Maybe a good car driver can imagine what to do in a game.

people really seem to glorify driving 'real' cars. It's just more expensive and you deal with more forces, no? Sure there are physics differences - but to me, driving a formula ford in lfs would seem more similar to doing that in reality, than hauling an econo hatchback around a real race track. Suggesting that a 'real' race driver would have talent at sims, but a 'sim' race driver would have no talent for real, doesn't make much sense to me. Surely if there is a relationship between the two, it would work both ways? I have found this to be the case, though don't do much on the track in my car these days. Experiments with clutch pack difs in lfs have given me much more feel for why my 'real' car exhibits such appalling power on understeer, as one basic example.

There's a driver coach here in the UK called Don Palmer. I went on one of his courses and whilst we were chatting he mentioned that sometimes he gets kids who have never driven on track before but they do everything right cos they'd been playing driving games.

There's definately something to be learned from sims. I learnt defensive lines from playing F355 challenge on the Dreamcast. After I went karting and there was a guy much faster than me behind. He couldn't get passed because I just put the kart where his needed to be. He followed me for several laps and couldn't pass and after the race he complimented me on my defensive lines.

All thx to F355!

The thing is Blowtus, if you are used to sims you are used to the visual and aural feedback, with a little bit of steering feedback. There are no g-forces to contend with either, or costs/risks involved. Therefore you can learn about how to pass and repass people, how to take lines and how to improve your lap times, just like a real racing driver would. Put a sim racer in a race car and the basic skills they already know, but they to get used to ignoring the noise, heat and buffeting.

A real racing driver has the same skills about learning lines and what have you, but has to do it in a cramped and debilitatingly hot environment, being thrown around by g-forces and restrained by tight fitting seats and belts, with a heavy helmet on. They will be more used to feeling the car the conventional way, through the seat of his pants, through his arms and feet, and via perfectly realistic sounds. Put them in a sim, and they are completely lost at sea, having no 'real' feedback to work with, fake sounds, dodgy force feedback because the technology hasn't improved since the 1980's, silly huds on screen, less sense of speed etc etc.

I think it's MUCH easier for a simmer to drive a real car than a racer to drive a sim (to begin with at least). That is why when GTR fanboys claim it must be good because a real racing driver said so means absolutely nothing. They'll be judging it in the same way an 8 year judges the Harry Potter games.

Basically, to drive a real race car, yoy would need to learn drive again after simracing. Everything just feels different.

Good post Tristan, I think you're dead right. I doubt a real racing driver would do well driving his actual race car (couldn't exactly complain about those physics) via remote control if he had to do it sat still with sim-gear, headphones and a monitor.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The thing is Blowtus, if you are used to sims you are used to the visual and aural feedback, with a little bit of steering feedback. There are no g-forces to contend with either, or costs/risks involved. Therefore you can learn about how to pass and repass people, how to take lines and how to improve your lap times, just like a real racing driver would. Put a sim racer in a race car and the basic skills they already know, but they to get used to ignoring the noise, heat and buffeting.

A real racing driver has the same skills about learning lines and what have you, but has to do it in a cramped and debilitatingly hot environment, being thrown around by g-forces and restrained by tight fitting seats and belts, with a heavy helmet on. They will be more used to feeling the car the conventional way, through the seat of his pants, through his arms and feet, and via perfectly realistic sounds. Put them in a sim, and they are completely lost at sea, having no 'real' feedback to work with, fake sounds, dodgy force feedback because the technology hasn't improved since the 1980's, silly huds on screen, less sense of speed etc etc.

I think it's MUCH easier for a simmer to drive a real car than a racer to drive a sim (to begin with at least). That is why when GTR fanboys claim it must be good because a real racing driver said so means absolutely nothing. They'll be judging it in the same way an 8 year judges the Harry Potter games.

Spot on.

@Blowtus
My Dad has done loads ranging from Hill Climbing to `superkarts` and has had shots of various cars. He was always up at the top of the charts in hill climbing and hanging on in for the podium positions in `superkarts` (reason for ` as I'm not sure if they were called that back then). Throw him into LFS and he finds it hard going to feel the car and to see where the track goes.

In reality games feel so dull to the real thing. Nothing will ever match the real thing, to contend with the heat, G Forces and the physical impact that all has on you it just makes any game feel arcadey. Personally I find it quite hard to compare lots of aspects of the car handling that I feel through the steering wheel of a kart to what is happening in LFS because naturally I use all my senses in real life. I'm not concentrating on what I feel through the steering wheel but what the whole kart is doing, and I bet thats the same with any racing car.

I remember Tristan saying he'd compare his F3 car to LFS but in the end just couldn't. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong but the reason I can come up with was all the other forces applied to your body just makes it impossible to just feel the forces through the steering wheel.

For me racing karts for 3 years and then driving a road car felt weird. I kind of felt lost and even though my Clio seems quite stiffly sprung I found the power steering to really hamper my feel of the car.

Keiran

Phew! What can I say to you all but thanks for your input - Its been really interesting reading all your thoughts. For the record I think my opening question, as in how 'realistic' is LFS was a bit misleading. I didn't for a second imagine that sitting at a desk in front of a computer screen holding (in my case) a crappy Microsoft Sidewinder wheel could kid anyone that they were in a real race car, but many of you picked up on what I really meant as in, is LFS realistic enough to give real help in car set-up, racing lines, throttle control, race craft etc? I'm still too new to LFS to know the answer but its encouraging that a lot of you think it is.

From my limited experience of real circuit driving/racing I have to agree that LFS is never going to be able to replicate the heat, discomfort and G-Forces of a real racing car but either more importantly it will never be able to match the pure adrenalin hit. It surprises me that no-one has mentioned the vibration in a real racing car - It was so bad when I did formula ford that you sometimes couldn't see the road ahead clearly (and please don't tell me force feedback wheels replicate that!). If you have loose filling six laps in a single seater will normally dislodge them for you!

The person who said its easier to keep a formula ford on the track than an LFS FOX is damn right. Of course you don't push so hard in a real formula car - it doesn't hurt when you go off in LFS (except to your pride if someone is watching)!

Anyway - A couple of things I've noticed about LFS that beat the pants off real racing.

1. Since paying my £24 I haven't even had to pay for a single replacement tyre!

2. I can drink a bottle of wine whilst racing in LFS - Far more civilised!

Thanks guys - Once I learn how to beat those computer AI guys I'll see you on a track

Quote from mandalman :

Pexcept to your pride if someone is watching

Rarely is coming to a stop as embarassing as when other people see how you came to a stop That is why God (or Arai) invented tinted visors, so that you can keep your face hidden. They know it's you, you know they know it's you, but somehow hiding your face just seems to make it all feel better. A bit like defeating the Ravenous Bug Blatter Beast of Traal.

Well, I had driven cars before I got LFS and rallied them around stupid gravel car park things, but now that i've had LFS for a year (Well, nearly) and I now know what's going on with the car and what I want to happen.

So really LFS is real enough to be a realistic simulator but also not to real so that it scares people off who arn't car fanatics and speed junkeys.

But really, it's all how you look at it, some people will thinks it's mo where near realistic and others willl think it's the next best thing to racing a car IRL.

I don't think we'll ever know just how realistic it is but it is pretty damn realistic going by the posts.

Quote from tristancliffe :

A real racing driver has the same skills about learning lines and what have you, but has to do it in a cramped and debilitatingly hot environment, being thrown around by g-forces and restrained by tight fitting seats and belts, with a heavy helmet on. They will be more used to feeling the car the conventional way, through the seat of his pants, through his arms and feet, and via perfectly realistic sounds.

All fair points, though not all the cars in LFS would have cramped and debilitatingly hot environments in real life, many would be perfectly comfortable
I'm not even sure I even notice a helmet once I start getting really stuck in...

Trist is right that the difference between real life and LFS are the real physical aspects of driving. The forces and feeling you get from the car.

I also think sim racers with driving skill make the transition to racing better than a racer without sim experience would make going to a sim due to the amount of feedback they would miss.

I think the key things I have learnt in LFS that help with pushing a car IRL are as follows

• Weight transfer and its effect on a car and how that can be used to your advantage.
  
• The skills to understand what is happening to the car when you are on/over the edge and how to correct that.
  
• The muscle memory of actions I need to take to correct problems when on the edge.
  
• The ability to spot dangerous situations early and how to got out of the way of that situation with low risk (Think all the practice avoiding pileups etc)
  
• The ability to "zone out" and only deal with things that will effect me while I drive.

The thing that you find going from LFS to IRL is that things like fear and self preservation take over and stop you going as far over limits as you do in LFS.

I decided to have a "play" on the drive home the other day. There is a great near hairpin turn I decided to push the car through as it has good visibility.

I trail braked through to the apex and got on the power after that. I was in FWD car that I have not had long and not really pushed before (The mini had to go due to the distances I now do) but managed to keep the car on the edge of traction throughout the turn. I was calm and dispasonate throughout and through instinct made all the required corrections to keep the car on the edge of traction.

What you learn from LFS is what you are willing to learn from it and also depends on how analitical your mind is. I tend to keep a weight distribution map in my head when I play LFS and when I drive IRL I can use this with the seat of the pants feeling to give far more understanding on what the car is doing under me.

It's kind of funny how you could by a $20,000 motion simulator, and still not spend as much money as if you were to begin a real racing carreer.

It has been my experance that my time in LFS has allowed me to learn and practice skills and behaviours that have translated very well in to my normal driving on a day to day basis. I have avoided several accidents and close calls because of the experance i have gained in LFS, watching the other drives, learning to predict what they will do, knowing what I need to do and how the car will react.

When I finaly got a sporty car and went to the autocross school, I found I could easily catch, hold and correct slides. This is somthing I had never done in a real car, yet there I was on the autocross course drifting with a passable effort. Not only did my times increase over the day but in the end I beat my instructors time by over 3 seconds. In a car I had owned for little over a month.

So yes I feel its time well spent, my daughter when older will learn in LFS or its follow up and she will be much better prepaired for the road then I was. Everything you learn in LFS, if you use a setup that is close to a real car will be directly translatable to a real car with similar handeling propperties. Some things though you just have to learn in the real world.

Unless LFS works with a fully enclosed VR chamber that replicates every motion, acceleration and vibration, it's no substitute for the real thing. Sure simulation helps with practicing without risk, but you'll never get the feedback you get IRL unless someone devises an ultimate VR chamber as I've described.

As for realism, unless a car in LFS is a very close copy of a RL car and setup similiarly to it as well, there's just no way to tell. BTW, how many of us are lucky enough to drive the REAL RA? Unless both are compared back to back, there's just no good proof of realism.

Personally, I prefer RL to sims. I get a MUCH better sense of a car's behavior and it's limits. The steering wheel gains weight as the car progressively understeers, only to lighten as the limit is passed. Unless the steering FFB behavior of the LFS RA is compared directly to the real thing, we just don't know.

BTW, RL driving provides a much better sense of weight shift than a sim program on a PC can ever hope to accomplish.

Quote from Jamexing :

Unless LFS works with a fully enclosed VR chamber that replicates every motion, acceleration and vibration, it's no substitute for the real thing. Sure simulation helps with practicing without risk, but you'll never get the feedback you get IRL unless someone devises an ultimate VR chamber as I've described.

As for realism, unless a car in LFS is a very close copy of a RL car and setup similiarly to it as well, there's just no way to tell. BTW, how many of us are lucky enough to drive the REAL RA? Unless both are compared back to back, there's just no good proof of realism.

Personally, I prefer RL to sims. I get a MUCH better sense of a car's behavior and it's limits. The steering wheel gains weight as the car progressively understeers, only to lighten as the limit is passed. Unless the steering FFB behavior of the LFS RA is compared directly to the real thing, we just don't know.

BTW, RL driving provides a much better sense of weight shift than a sim program on a PC can ever hope to accomplish.

You are correct in what you say and I would also probably argue that if someone had no real life experience in a car I doubt they would be able to push a real car to the limits because they do not have the reference to relate what happens in LFS to the real world. They would not be able to translate subtle changes in G to fall off in traction etc etc.

You will also find that almost everyone here prefers RL driving to LFS because of the extra feedback you get. In a sim you have to learn all the queues through the senses the sim does stimulate and then translate those to full in the blanks so you understand what the car is doing.

This means you have a lag in your reactions as the translation takes time and you also receive the queues later than you would get them IRL because IRL the key sense is your body.

That said I would still argue that you don't need to direct comparission at all with real life cars. Once you have driven a fair number of cars you get a "feel" of how a car behaves enough to know LFS is a good simulation.

No, LFS is not 100% realistic but then that is not actually possible anyway but it is close enough and every step in physics has improved it no end.

Things will only get better and as extras get implemented like engine stalling (So the auto clutch can be disabled for people with a clutch), chassis flex, brake heat and fade etc it will get closer again.

BTW, for about $30000US you can get a full motion platform that will work with LFS from Force-dynamics so you can already have the motion system you mentioned.