I used to run a European based UrbanTerror CTF team (quake 3 mod) called TeamKFC .. we got served a cease and desist order by KFC in the USA and instructed to stop using all references to KFC and the "logos" and "TradeMarks" we had used on our web site .. They actually spent money and time tracking us down from the URL registration...

Quote from Boxster3.4 :

I used to run a European based UrbanTerror CTF team (quake 3 mod) called TeamKFC .. we got served a cease and desist order by KFC in the USA and instructed to stop using all references to KFC and the "logos" and "TradeMarks" we had used on our web site .. They actually spent money and time tracking us down from the URL registration...

Cases like that normally arise because the trademark holder feels that the trademark in question is being used out of context, in a context which directly competes with them, or in a context which they are not happy with.

It is true that using any copyrighted material without permission is illegal, and that the internet has done much to make people believe that it's ok to just grab any image you want and put it to whatever use you choose, which is simply not true.

In the case of parts/tuning/racing logos, since you can buy a branded sticker to put onto your car,thus the issue becomes more clouded, since you're paying the sticker vendor for the logo not the trademark holder. It is therefore the case that logos and brand stickers available for sale are usually considered to be in the public domain, and thus provided that they are used unaltered, litigation is unlikely.

The whoel issue of the use of imagery is complex to say the least, and it is very difficult as a member of the public to decide what is public domain and what is not. Suffice it to say that the original poster is largely correct when he points out that many car skins posted here infringe copyright restrictions, but the fact that several legal companies are not using this section of the forum to provide themselves with work suing digital artists, means that we're talking about very low level infractions, and in many cases the companies whose logos have been appropriated for use are probably not actually bothered, and would probably only take interest if they thought the skins were being sold for profit.

However if you want to be sure about whether your skin is legal then don't use any logos you didn't make yourself, not even the LFS brands, since I don't remember a post from the devs saying "Hey it's open house on our artwork".

As for me, I'll carry on considering that pretty much any brand is fair game, provided I don't mess with it, and I sincerely doubt I'll ever be called to task for having such an attitude.

What those of you living in the U.K and in full time education need to do if you're really that bothered is invent a project for which you can make a skin or skins. As long as the work was created for educational purposes copyright rules do not apply, and you can freely distribute or even publically show your works provided that you don't make any money, through sales and that any public showing in the context of a gallery is a free exhibition. [preferrably at an educational institution[

Quote from Smax :

It is therefore the case that logos and brand stickers available for sale are usually considered to be in the public domain, and thus provided that they are used unaltered, litigation is unlikely.

The whoel issue of the use of imagery is complex to say the least, and it is very difficult as a member of the public to decide what is public domain and what is not.[

I don't think public domain ever enters the stage at all here, i'd guess any company logotype is a) under nested copyright and b) probably a trademark.

So like BBO says, using a copyrighted logo is always pretty much the same thing, but there are so many more variables in the mix, like fair use and how ridiculously little impact the use has on the copyright holder even if every single skinner used that logo.

As long as it is for non commercial use, under EU law you can use whatever copyrighted material you wish!

It depends how you define non commercial, it isn't as simple as non profit, but hey, playing in a computer game is reasonably safe (Unless your American!)

But the safest thing to do, is to ask permission via email, chances are they won't respond, and as long as you have that email asking permission, you can do whatever you want, including selling the product, if you ask permission and they haven't said no, it's yours to use! In other words, if you are really that worried, just ask to cover yourself

Company's pay a lot of money to have for example their car in a game or on the cover of the game. Now you really think they are going to sue you because you did put their logo on your skin.....illepall

That was my point exactly!

I can appreciate that sometimes a company might want you to stop using their logos if somewhere in the world the content could be considered offensive. Like the Counter-Strike KFC thing - I guess the Colonel doesn't want his chicken associated with violence, and I think that's fair enough.

Also, I believe that incorporating an existing company's name into a clan/team/club/band name/whatever name is another scary legal area. Because then you get people clicking/buying/checking out your item simply because they think it might be an associated or sponsored product.

However, when it comes to sticking a logo on a non-offensive product (like LFS car skins - with no porn or gore), asking it to be removed has 2 main issues for the company.
1. Their name isn't on display anymore. The point of my original post is that free advertising is free advertising and it's crazy to complain about that!

2. It makes them look like boring swine. Stick-in-the-muds, if you like. "Please don't use our logo, we don't like fun". Or "Please don't use our logo, we don't want you to enjoy our product". WTF?

What the hell? Is this thread serious? illepall

Don't be such a total and utter fun spoiler Ant!

Quote from tomylee :

Company's pay a lot of money to have for example their car in a game or on the cover of the game. Now you really think they are going to sue you because you did put their logo on your skin.....illepall

The most interested party pays money, which is often the game studio and not the car company. Think about which party gains the most, the small racing game with a licensed Ferrari, or Ferrari having their car in a small racing game.

Quote from Dajmin :

free advertising is free advertising and it's crazy to complain about that!

It also makes sense for companies to be able to choose where and why to advertise. IMO you can't see logos on car skins as free advertisement, i think it's simply fair use since it's non-profit and the market for private individuals purchasing the rights to put copyrighted logos on car skins doesn't exist.

Quote from filur :

The most interested party pays money, which is often the game studio and not the car company. Think about which party gains the most, the small racing game with a licensed Ferrari, or Ferrari having their car in a small racing game.

Sorry but this is wrong. Just some week ago I did read an article about that and they said that they pay to have their car on the cover or in the game. Because they like to get used the young ones to the car and to love it it so that they buy it when they are older. And that does make sense. If like, brain washing

Quote from tomylee :

Sorry but this is wrong. Just some week ago I did read an article about that and they said that they pay to have their car on the cover or in the game. Because they like to get used the young ones to the car and to love it it so that they buy it when they are older. And that does make sense. If like, brain washing

A car company wanted their car in a game, so they payed for it to happen.

Quote :

When asked about two specific car makers, one German, one Italian, a reluctant Yamauchi answered, "Ferrari and Porsche, [aren't] impossible, but in terms of GT4, it won't happen."

$.

As people have already said, if you are not using the logo for personal gain, such as profits, like making the skins, and selling it on with the logo on, then the company cannot sue you, however, if you are making profits using the logo, they can sue for millions, as you are using a registered trademark to promote your own business.

(thats the way i think of it anyway )
(Note: if you do get sued, dont come to me, im just giving my own opinion, im no lawyer! )

Quote from Thorvertonian :

As long as it is for non commercial use, under EU law you can use whatever copyrighted material you wish!

It depends how you define non commercial, it isn't as simple as non profit, but hey, playing in a computer game is reasonably safe (Unless your American!)

I could really freak out when I read such stupid statements. illepall

Where do you get this completly wrong (in germany we call this dangerous superficial knowledge) Information from?

Have you ever i.e heard about / read the European Copyright Directive (EUCD)?
I bet no.

It doesn't matter how you define something. It's the copyright law that defines it for you, me and all the others.

If someone copyright i.e. the database of a website he created or a photo or whatever he created then you can't use it without his permission or till the rights are extinct. No matter if it is commercial use or not.

If you do , he can sue you after EU right. That's a fact.

Quote from Thorvertonian :

But the safest thing to do, is to ask permission...

In all cases this is the only (correct) way to stay out of trouble.

Quote from Bradracer :

As people have already said, if you are not using the logo for personal gain, such as profits, like making the skins, and selling it on with the logo on, then the company cannot sue you,

This is wrong!
Check my above post.

-----------------------

I'm not telling people to not use logos of brands on their car skins etc.
Everyone has to decide this himself.

And like Smax said these are (depends of what) low level infractions but to make it clearer.

When you steal something in a shop and you don't get caught or sued
doesn't mean you have the right to do it or it is legal.

Quote from BBO@BSR :

When you steal something in a shop and you don't get caught or sued doesn't mean you have the right to do it or it is legal.

Material theft and including a copyrighted reference in art for the sake of individual entertainment is hardly comparable.

Also the fact that you can sue person for something doesn't automatically make something illegal.

Quote from Rubenz81 :

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=11911
So you asked valvoline and intel?

OWNED!

" When you steal something in a shop and you don't get caught or sued
doesn't mean you have the right to do it or it is legal."

That's OT. There's a difference between putting a cola label on a free car skin and stealing a bottle of their stuff. The label on the skin gives them free advertising- legal or not, they don't care because it might get them sales. Stealing a bottle of the stuff cuts into their profits and they don't like that.

EDIT: Damn Filur, you beat me to it.

Quote from BBO@BSR :

This is wrong!
Check my above post.

-----------------------

I'm not telling people to not use logos of brands on their car skins etc.
Everyone has to decide this himself.

And like Smax said these are (depends of what) low level infractions but to make it clearer.

When you steal something in a shop and you don't get caught or sued
doesn't mean you have the right to do it or it is legal.

As i said in my post... i am not a lawyer, i am just stating my opinion, i may be wrong, but i dont care, you learn from mistakes

and even from your posts' recognition of the various laws etc. it doesnt really apply here, because a company is not going to have many problems with free advertising, as has been posted before, unless the advertising source reflects a negative image on the brand name, and LFS doesnt have a negative image surely.

again..... this is my personal opinion, dont shout me down with all the laws under the sun please...pppllleeeaaassee

edit: also, as posted above a bit, someone gave a link to cocacola site, and it had a page with the cocacola logos that were free to download.....surely cocacola, the biggest drink company in the world, wouldnt do that if there were any laws against it?

"Have you ever i.e heard about / read the European Copyright Directive (EUCD)?
I bet no.

It doesn't matter how you define something. It's the copyright law that defines it for you, me and all the others."

In fact the laws about copyright in Europe are so caotic that companies register logos under EACH country where they are present plus on UE laws.
Because laws in Italy are different from the one in Germany, and EUCD will not cover you in some cases. Coca Cola is a registered mark not only in USA but also in Italy, Spain, UE etc...
For example in Italy i could name my company "Ferrari" that makes for example wines and Ferrari the car maker cant sue me because it has nothing to do with cars. And there are also laws that protect brands that are not registered. So it's a big mess. And also more complicated, but space and my really crappy english...
And LFS it's not the only skinnable game, and i never heard of someone sued by ford because he has done the last focus WRC replica for richard burns rally...

Quote from filur :

I don't think public domain ever enters the stage at all here, i'd guess any company logotype is a) under nested copyright and b) probably a trademark..

Yes, I'm quite sure you're right about the copyright part, but equally if the issue was taken particularly seriously then big sites like brandsoftheworld.com would have been whacked with cease and desist orders by now. The fact that they haven't is in my opinion proof that the notion of public domain does carry some weight.

Quote from Smax :

Yes, I'm quite sure you're right about the copyright part, but equally if the issue was taken particularly seriously then big sites like brandsoftheworld.com would have been whacked with cease and desist orders by now. The fact that they haven't is in my opinion proof that the notion of public domain does carry some weight.

Well if the users would read then the Terms of use of brandsoftheworld.com says it all:

"...
All logos are trademarks of their respective owners, and are offered as a convenience for their lawful use only, with proper permission from the copyright or trademark holders. Downloading files from this site does NOT give you authorization or permission to use the copyrighted logos without the specific consent of the copyright or trademark holder. Before you use, reproduce or distribute in any manner any logo found on this site, you must first receive the express permission of the holder of the copyright or trademark of that logo. Failure to obtain such permission is a violation under international law."

and

"The primary use of site is to enable designers to access vector-forms of the well-known brand-logos that they can use in their presentations, given the permission of the copyright owner" !!!

It's just simple to understand even if my english is not the best.

I could argue about this for ageeeesss, but seeing as it is pretty pointless, and noone is going to get sued for making skins with logos on..... im not

Quote from filur :

Material theft and including a copyrighted reference in art for the sake of individual entertainment is hardly comparable.

Also the fact that you can sue person for something doesn't automatically make something illegal.

You (and the others) are right it was not the best example.
I tried to find something that's make it easy to understand in general. (because someone posted "..you can use everything for free.." etc.).
So it wasn't meant to be an example for logos on skins.
So it's not OT @ TiJay (read the quote in that post., It wasn't just about skins and logos )

The biggest problem is that people who have not really an idea or to do with it, post something like the "you can use everthing for free use as long as it's not commercial" bullsh*t then another one jumps on the train and write "As people have already said here in the forum" etc.

This is how urban legends are build.
"Internet ? Everything is for free there. I read that often in forums bla bla
MP3 downloading is legal because everyone is doing it" etc.

I hope you get what I mean.

The whole copyright theme is far to complex and to complicated to solve it here but if more people would just read terms of use or just ask the rightsholder for permission etc. it would be much easier. Sometimes

Quote from Rubenz81 :

"Have you ever i.e heard about / read the European Copyright Directive (EUCD)?
I bet no.

It doesn't matter how you define something. It's the copyright law that defines it for you, me and all the others."

In fact the laws about copyright in Europe are so caotic that companies register logos under EACH country where they are present plus on UE laws.
Because laws in Italy are different from the one in Germany, and EUCD will not cover you in some cases. Coca Cola is a registered mark not only in USA but also in Italy, Spain, UE etc...

I totally agree there with you but it's not the point here.

I just replied (as an example) a post where someone wrote:

"As long as it is for non commercial use, under EU law you can use whatever copyrighted material you wish!"

Which is completly wrong and that implies the writer have never ever heard or read something about copyrights.

Anyway the first post from AtomAnt says it all.

Ask Then use.

Quote from Bradracer :

....

edit: also, as posted above a bit, someone gave a link to cocacola site, and it had a page with the cocacola logos that were free to download.....surely cocacola, the biggest drink company in the world, wouldnt do that if there were any laws against it?

Yes you can download there some copyrighted pictures
but they also have Terms of Use on their site and
that you can download their pictures doesn't mean you can do what you want with it.

From the Coca Cola site
" ... Content within the "Press Center" section of the Site may be reproduced solely for editorial purposes in daily newspapers, ....
... you may not distribute, modify, copy (except as set forth above), transmit, display, reuse, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works from, transfer, sell or otherwise use Content without The Coca-Cola Company's written permission..."

A lot of people have been saying it is no issue if you give it away for free.

Not true. Toxic (a guy who made cars for 1nsane) made Grave Digger, the model it's self they didn't care about (after all, anyone could make a truck look like it), but he HAD to remove the Grave Digger branding from the truck because it was infringing on their copyright. They gave him a court order to remove it. Now this was being given away for free.

Point is, it all depends how anal the company is.