I just noticed this yesterday but in live for speed s1 if you were in the redline
for a second(well you know what i mean)you would hear a little taping noise under full throttle and your preformance wouldnt be as good. This
doesn,t seam to happen in s2, why? I thought it was a good idea and it made the game more realistic.
This has been discussed a few times. I never played S1 but it's not realistic at all for engine damage to occur simply by hitting redline on the tach. If that were the case my car's engine would have been blown up many years ago and several thousand times over.
That highly depends on the specific engine. There are engines that will choke themselves to death when they are just 250 revs over the red and other engines still produce high amounts of power 1500 revs over the red line.
Perhaps LFS-cars will also behave like this, so you have to get to know your car before you know how much you can rev it over the limit. That will give each car an even more specific feeling to it.
Depends on the vehicle and the method of imposing the rev-limit.
Run a turbocharged car up against a factory-like fuel cut rev limit and you will put a hole in a piston eventually, sooner rather than later with big boost.
An engine that stops producing power after redline, and an engine that is damaged by hitting redline are two entirely different things. And just because an engine can continue to breathe at 10,000rpm doesn't mean that the rods can stay in one piece at that RPM.
And how many cars do you know of that use a fuel cut-off as a rev limiter? I can think of none. Every factory rev limiter i've ever seen was spark cut-off. You slow down the engine and prevent over-revving by preventing the fuel from igniting, not by leaning out the engine. Cutting off fuel and still trying to fire the cylinder would be begging for detonation. I hope no modern car manufacturer is that stupid.
Now, i'm not going to go out and bury the needle while in neutral, but I've driven a lot of cars and bikes over the years and they have all been redlined daily. I've never blown up an engine. Never thrown a rod. Never bent a valve, punctured a block, cracked a rocker, etc. Not once. The chances of breaking an engine by momentarily going deep into the red zone is very, very small. I think that LFS needs better engine damage modeling, but it definitely does not need engine damage caused by hitting red line for a few seconds during a race. Instead, I'd say we need to model overheating, damage due to physical contact, etc.
red lining a car will not cause it to blow. My Lexus IS200 Auto has sports mode, and when you place your foot to the floor, and it has kicked down, it continues onto 6500RPM and redline is at 6250RPM.
I know this is because the peek power will end @ 6500 RPM, but im just proving that slight redline will not blow your engine.,
Also, a peugeot 306 1.9 TD which i used to own, used to take 5500RPM (red @ 5000RPM) and this is the only way i could clear the emmisions before an MOT without paying, and this didnt blow my engine, it just simply blew all the carbon and crap out from the engine
I can think of more than a few from the last 25 years. Some were even turbocharged. Bad combo. In the last 5 years, practically none. The reason for a fuel-cut instead of a spark cut is simple. Its cheaper.
Maybe you should learn how to shift. Running the motor up against the limiter is slow, makes you look like an idiot, and makes guessing what the car/bike is going to handle like a wee bit hard. I get a real kick out of the squids that ride their bikes to the revlimiter in first next to me on public roads. Apparently thats the only way they can bring the wheel down reliably.
Note that there is a huge difference between revving the motor past the line on the tach, and revving the motor into the limiter.
The only possibilities here are:
-You don't like screwing with motors
-You've never driven anything seriously powerful, or highly tuned
I've seen rods break themselves in grocery getter motors that were abused. More commonly I've seen rod-bearings fail.
I've personally windowed a block by running the thing near redline up a canyon at 120mph....daily. #6 rod gave up, probably after the bearing did.
Bullshit. Particularly when talking about real race engines a la LFS, not the apparent grocery-getters you've had experience with. 1000-2000 rpms over the line is more than enough to "test the strength of the oil pan" on more than a few designs.
Its all a bit different if your only experience is with motors put in consumer products like road cars and bikes. The windowed block above was running at about 7300rpms in fourth gear at the time it failed. Stock "redline" is at 7000 rpms, but the fuel cut is at 7500, which actually shows on the tach as about 8000.
Car companies aren't stupid. They aren't going to place the redline at the limit on your typical grocery getter.
This is not the same as where the engine builder places the sparkcut on the motor in say, an "FV8" motor, where the driver can be reasonably expected to know how to shift and drive. The redline will be placed at the very limit of safety and durability. Indeed, failures will occur with only minor excursions past the limit.
Some incredibly high-profile examples of engine failure from minor excursions near/at the redline exist. I suggest you educate yourself as to the situation BMW ran into when the E46 M3 motor decided to start eating rod-bearings and throwing rods.
They've issued at least two campaigns to deal with this, and the problems came down to poor tolerancing in the oilpump, underspecified or poorly manufactured rod bearings, and a design NEAR THE LIMITS of reliability in the high RPM range.
Check out how high the maximum piston accelerations are for those beasts. Fifteen years ago (as in, when most of the grocery getters you've driven were probably engineered), engineering literature would have claimed such a motor was not feasible for production. Apparently, its marginally feasible.
All of those aspects are being worked on. I assume the temp. gauge isn't just permanently there for looks.
Engine damage should reflect reality. In reality, overrevving a race motor will tend to kill it, with a few exceptions. Those exceptions are often classes in which the engine's induction is the limiting factor, and therefore bottom ends/valvetrains tend to be quite reliable. MRT5 comes to mind. Note that the appropriately placed redline is far beyond the powerband.
I doubt that the cold engine can be turn up to 10000 rpm and will stay undamaged. temperature control of the engine is missing in the game. It'd be interesting to see overheating engine and their failure as a result of it. Also some gearbox failure is missing as a result of bad way of driveing or car accidents.
Excellent points. Particularly on gearbox failure. Many series tend to have more retirements from gearbox failure than engine failure. Someone mentioned recently that once an engine starts to overheat you rarely see the car last the rest of the race, despite whatever actions are taken to remedy the situation. Without getting too technical, this is because of something called Departure from Nucleatic Boiling. It rapidly makes matters worse.
Also, your English is notably better than that of many posters on a car forum I frequent. They are native speakers. I wish I could write in my second language as well as you do.
I used to own a Rover 214Si 16v. Shit car really, and one day i decided i was going to scrap it. But the scrap yard closed. So i parked up outside and decided I wanted to blow the engine up. Went to a car park first of all, done some burn outs... valves bouncing, and way beyond the redline for quite long periods of time. The thing wouldnt die. So i took it back home, and sat in neutral revving. Redline for ages (about 6,500 to 7,000 RPM where redline begins at 6k). Still wouldnt blow. Although the temp guage did increase rapidly.
I eneded up selling the car to some dude for banger racing. Afaik, it's still going strong.
Just to point out, the car was about 13 years old, had 116k miles on the clock and had a head gasket replacement once.
Other than perhaps the UF, none of the cars in LFS appear to be 25 year old designs. Even the "Super 7" is an old design, but is still produced today and I don't believe it uses a fuel cut-off.
I know how to shift just fine, thanks. Running the engine against the limiter is not slow if you're not in gear when you hit the limiter. For instance, leaving the throttle to the floor during shifts when drag racing. The engine will hit the limiter, but it will not slow down the car.
Right. And I was speaking about going into the red zone, not only about hitting the limiter. Most road cars go into the red well before the rev limiter kicks in or engine damage can occur.
I'm not sure what gives you this impression. I don't work for an F1 team, if that's what you mean.
Well, I don't have that same experience. I've never seen an engine fail simply by red lining it. The failures that I've seen have generally been due to long term use and abuse or the failure of one part which ends up damaging the rest (oil pump failure, for instance). Things just eventually wear out and break. Taking a fresh, well built engine and running into the red is not going to magically cause it to explode. Taking an old, tired, well worn engine and doing the same thing and, yeah, it might break. Parts fatigue.
So, you had an engine that was redlined often and it took how long to finally break? Unless you're telling me that this engine blew up the first time you redlined it, you're just supporting my views.
I hate to have to tell you this, but many of the cars in LFS are "grocery getters". Any modern car is going to have it's rev limiter and true "safe max rpm" higher than the marked red line on the tach. Again, I've never owned or driven a road car that spontaneously blew up simply because it was redlined. And 2000 rpm over red line is a far cry from "hitting redline" which is what I said in my original post on this subject.
In my original response I was talking about road cars, not race cars. Other than the GTR and open-wheel cars, LFS is all road cars. Like I said above, any modern road car is going to have it's red line on the tach at a lower RPM than it's rev limiter so that average joes can go into the red without damaging the engine or instantly hitting the limiter. I will agree with you that full-blown race cars are a different animal. I don't have personal experience with race cars other than those which are accessible by normal people spending their own money. Which is to say, I know people who race stock cars, modifieds, sprint cars, privateer motorcycles, drag cars, etc. Most of these cars/bikes spend most of their time near red line (especially the circle track cars). If they exploded every time the needle touched red, my friends couldn't afford to race.
This is exactly what I've been saying all along. Hence, the reason it's safe to run into the red on your average car.
I agree with you here. I believe that going into the red zone on a high-end race car is much more risky than on a road car since they're trying to get every last ounce of performance and extend that red line as far as they can. I don't think that running into the red is going to cause engine damage 100% of the time, but I do think the risk is quote high.
I don't really see what this has to do with the issue at hand. The only things that matter are 1) the maximum speed the engine can turn without damage 2) the red line shown to the driver 3) the speed at which the rev-limiter engages. So long as 2 and 3 are lower than 1, there should be no problem.
As I said above, this is all dependant upon the three factors that I mentioned. I understand what you're saying about how much strain an engine can take and the fact that race engines are put under more strain than road cars. I think we're basically in agreement about engine damage and what is required to cause it. Where we differ is that I'm looking at LFS from the perspective of the road cars where as you're looking at it from the perspective of the race cars.
Redline is 5500rpm, max power around 5800, limiter is 6200rpm in this(xvid video) 2 Litre NA engine with around 130bhp
Oh yes, no engine damage occurs as engine is good up to 7000rpm...
How this compares to XR GT and specially it's limiter?
XR GT has 1,8 Litre engine, max power (140hp) around 6000rpm and redline at 8000?rpm, does it have a limiter.. yes somewhere around 10000?rpm
And, it will get engine damage, not much but still it will get it.
Sorry if I remembered XR GT facts bit wrong, long time since I drove it.
Engine damage should occur, but also redlines and limiters in road cars should be revisited.
Let's say that you shift accidently 2 gears down, perhaps around 8000-8500 rpm, valve springs are not designed so high speeds and your valves will hit pistons, maybe it is not total desctruction, but surely your engine is bit weaker because valves are leaking, that is almost only way to damage road car's engine if it has limiter.
It should be same way in LFS, overrev and pay for it.
XR GT Redline should be at around 6500rpm, limiter at 7000rpm, it is bit up to devs how they like, but it should pull cleanly to limiter, without losing 50% of steam and also it should be able to go against limiter forever.
Maybe we just need gearbox damage for this too and also engine temp?
Now, am I terribly wrong in this when I say that, then it would be realistic?
Can't recall from the dash what that is. Mark II VW of some sort?
In real life, a street car motor like that either wouldn't really rev that high free, or it would break into little-bitsy pieces.
Not all road-car motors behave like that. I can think of one in particular that has a 7500rpm fuel cut but makes peak power at 5600 rpms. Little point in pulling past 6200 rpms in any gear but first.
Lots of vehicles really run out of steam before the redline. Pretty much any American built stock motor prior to 1990 or so exhibits that.
Yes, must say that I have no experience from american cars, all I know that they are running with high torque and low rpm.
XR GT like car in reallife would not be great success as customers will sue manufacturer because engine will destroy itself before redline, lol.
LFS has sporty road cars and racecars, exept UF1000, I think that it is against sport car nature not to able to push against limiter, also if engine runs out of power before redline, then redline must be in wrong place.
Oh yes, our old company car was without rev limiter, it had no rev counter either, but it did not go past 60kph at 1st gear and it sure was past redline, I got valve bounce few times
Oh, it got engine damage, it had difficulties to get up to hill on later time, rip
I get that in our Ford Expedition. The shift point is at 4850RPM, but the actual limiter isn't until 5300RPM. If I shift it manually, you can hit the limiter in first, and you get that typical banging sound of the spark being cut, but in second, it just barely kisses the limiter and just stays there, it has totally run out of steam at that RPM, shift into 3rd though, and you keep going. That's an american engine for you hehe, nothing on the high end, but plenty of torque.
(The low end torque right off the line is a blast, it's so funny to see the looks on the faces of Integra drivers as a 5800lb SUV beats them away from a stoplight)
Edited to say it's not just older American cars, our Expedition is a 2004. It's just a big old pushrod V8 hehe
Actually my car used to be bit like that before, when it had only 100hp@5500rpm, last revs (5000-5500) were quite slow to gain.
Now it has 130hp after few mods and it is hitting limiter very nicely with 3rd, but still it is such a slow car, never have hit limiter at 4th, not enough straight.
Most of modern european road cars seem to be pretty much similar than my car currently is, they will get to limiter same speed as they go to redline, except Focus, it has no redline, only limiter, boring car.
I think that main point is that there is no engine damage on road cars at limiter, only if you manage to get revs past limiter you will damage your engine. Then there is engines without limiter, those too will survive over redline, but not more than those with limiter.
But there is no cars that will have limiter past engine damage point.
And I'm talking only from road cars now.
Again, that may be true NOW for most new cars, but it certainly wasn't the case 10 years ago. Examples like the BMW M engines show it can still happen today.
Well I don't believe this statement at all. It is pretty common for FXR racers to come to a corner and go from maxed out 6th gear and down shift to 4th or even 3rd in one motion. For one, I don't think you could keep the wheels from locking up in real life and if you could get it in gear, it would blow the engine up. Probably the very first time.
This makes for the driver that has learned the nuances of LFS racing to be extreemely fast but not very realistic.
imo that's nothing wrong if you don't overrev the engine... and the damage is there, just flatshift for 5 laps in the FXR and you'll hear/experience the power loss....
Revving to hard for a second then having the engine getting serious performance damage isn't very realistic. If it was I think my bike would have blown up by now.
I've completely killed the engine by downshifting from 5th to 1st in my 500cc XFG :P Use mechanik, and lower the redline considerably. This will make it VERY easy to completly blow the engine.
this video was made just for you.
.
