Hi,

I have recently started using a force feedback shifter for LFS. I think its great, but theres one thing that bothers me - Its slower. In the LX4 im a 10th of a second slower on the drag strip.

I can understand that when shifting I'm in neutral for a split second which will slow me down a bit. However the main loss in time appears to come from the auto clutch (I dont have 3 pedals). When I shift the clutch blips twice instead of just once when I use sequential shifting. Ive tried turning off "throttle blip on down shift" and it still blips twice. Is there any way to combat this problem.

Any chance of a dev answer too (I know im pushing my luck as you replied to my other thread ), perhaps you could explain what the auto clutch is doing? Perhaps with the massive increase in people using shifters (after ghostve's FF shifter) it may be worth looking into how to making the time penalty a bit less.

Beings its on the drag strip, set the clutch to be your brake pedal? You can use the handbrake to stop once you cross the line!

I think any H shifter will be at aslight disadvantage in LFS atm because the shift times are (pretty much) instant.

Quote from RoCkBiGdAvE :

Beings its on the drag strip, set the clutch to be your brake pedal? You can use the handbrake to stop once you cross the line!

That's one bloody hard clutch pedal, even by racing standards.

It might help to increase the thread priority of the FFB tool so the delay is smaller. Otherwise we can only hope for Scawen to increase the time the virtual H gate needs to put in a gear.

Vain

What kind of joystick do you need to create a FF H-shifter? and does it have to be modified?

Quote from Vain :

It might help to increase the thread priority of the FFB tool so the delay is smaller. Otherwise we can only hope for Scawen to increase the time the virtual H gate needs to put in a gear.

I hope that this is on Scawen's to-do list for a future patch. I think we need to remove the advantage that people currently have when using the computer controlled assists. Once we have a better clutch model implemented this will be even more important.

Quote from ajp71 :

What kind of joystick do you need to create a FF H-shifter? and does it have to be modified?

Any For example, I use Logitech Wingman Pro FF and software called FFShifter (find it in Rscnet forums, Hardware section).

Modification - yes, you could make yourself a H gate, because without it soemtimes you misshift, but it's not really needed, I don't have a H gate, and don't do misshifts.

yeh i had the force 3D joystick running as a shifter, put a momo gear stick on it too, once i was hitting it in so it was gripping better, and i hit it to far, joystick goes mental so i pulled it apart to have a look, now its in my wardrobe in parts

Quote from RoCkBiGdAvE :

Beings its on the drag strip, set the clutch to be your brake pedal? You can use the handbrake to stop once you cross the line!

I was only using the drag strip as an example, I dont do any drag racing, so using the brake as a clutch isnt really a solution.

Just wondering why we get those two "blips" on the clutch - I think that that is where the problem is.

Quote from mejlus :

Modification - yes, you could make yourself a H gate, because without it soemtimes you misshift, but it's not really needed, I don't have a H gate, and don't do misshifts.

Are there any H gates (or modded sticks) avaliable to buy, like the Cromo gear shifter that was in development on dEmporium?

Also what are the cheapest joysticks that will do the job, will the cheapest FF joysticks still manage this properly?

EDIT - this any good?

All the info on FF shifters and the FF shifter programme are here.

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=214673

Any proper (i.e. not rumble) FF joystick will work. The one I use is the Logitech wingman force. Its cheap and the one that the programme is developed for. Although I dont think they make them anymore but there are always new ones on Ebay.

To the guy asking about the H-plate. It really is better with one otherwise you can go from 1 to 3 just by moving the stick right. Its not that much effort to build a box around your joystick and put an h plate on top.

Quote from dave81983 :

I can understand that when shifting I'm in neutral for a split second which will slow me down a bit. However the main loss in time appears to come from ... Is there any way to combat this problem.

Yeah dude, wait for the next patch (Well, not the *next* patch like U13 or the like, but the next rev of LFS)

In typical LFS style, we are inching towards an ever more real racing world. A world when when the stick of your shifter reaches a gear, your gearbox does too.

Right now when I use ffshifter it takes me about .05 seconds to hit the next gear and then the sim lets my gearbox be there .2 seconds later. I don't care.. some day when the sim is a little bit closer to the real thing, what I'm already doing (right) will be rewarded and I will look back at the slower racer using his button-clutch keyboard-crutch thingy and go "HOWS THAT DUST EDWARD?? LIKING IT???"

I need to go home.. work is too boring!!!

Any Dev response on this, can we expect fairer shifting in the future?

I'd hope so, 'cos the Logitech G25 is on the way, and I want one!

/\ /\ /\ Omg, i reli cant wait for that wheel. And even if fairer shifting wont come...i am still buyin it because i would sacrifice a couple of seconds just to drive with that wheel......i have a DFP at the mo, and i dont reli like the shifter. I cant wait until i actually have to put it in gear...with the clutch pedal not forgettin omg....will be soo good. And the wheel its self has a much greater diametre than any other wheel. 14 inch. DFP is 11 i cant wait......tri motor FF as well, omg....lol

someone pass tommy a box of tissues please

I thought DFP was 9 and G25 was 11...

TiJay is right.

Im going to make a shifter out of a sidewinder joystick (because i got it cheap) will it work with the shifter programs? and is there anyway you can make a clutch from an old set of pedals that plug into a gameport?

oliver: I don't remember but it FFShifter might have been some problems with Sidewinders. Can't remember, read the rscnet.org thread for more info...

Sims should really take more realistic aspect for controllers and shifting now that "everyone" can afford a shifter+clutch set (G25). When I get it of course I would like to use clutch and the shifter but why should I bother because I will be much slower. Of course IRL too shift paddles would be much faster than a car with H-gearbox but isn't it just pretty ARCADE that we use paddles to shift, automatic gear cut/blip with auto clutch in a normal road car.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

You won't be that much slower once you get used to it, although circuits with a lot of slow corners like Cadet will probably show up the difference a lot more.

How much slower you mean? Significally slower? With significant I mean slow enough to get pissed off while you are playing... thinking that "damn, here I loose 0.xx secs just because I don't have a third hand".

Of course another reason why shifting is so unrealistic is that we have very basic gearbox/transmission/engine simulation (in sims in general). If you could actually damage the gearbox you wouldn't abuse it by shifting whenever you want and as fast as you can like we do now, this thing alone would make users with manual clutch and shifter much more competitive.

Now that G25 is here and it's "affordable for everyone" meaning that a shifter+clutch setup will be a stardard soon, I really hope that in a few years sim would have, how would I say it, more radical controller requirements. That you would actually need a clutch pedal and a shifter in cars that would have it in real life too.

I bought FF joystick earlier this year to make it a FF-shifter but after I heard about G25 I forgot it. In RBR I use black MOMO's crappy plastic shifter and even alone with that it's just amazing difference how much more you have to use your hands while playing. Plus immersion^10.

Shifting yourself via a FFB shifter costs you a few tenths each lap.
The problem is that each shift in LFS takes a while because LFS assumes a "normal" gearbox, even in the formula cars. LFS does this to "simulate" correct H-gate-shifting. Using an FFB shifter you don't shift from 3 to 4, but from 3 to neutral and from neutral to 4. LFS will say "Hey, that's two shifts!" and will make the change from 3 to 4 cost the double amount of time. Plus the time you actually need to change gears.
You do notice that when accelerating side-by-side with someone. You're equal through one gear, but the moment you both change gears the other car soars off. Just from shifting faster.

What LFS needs to do is react to the fact that a H-gate-shifter is used so that the gearchanges take no time anymore.
On the other hand this would allow to "cheat" the system and create an LFS-script that will simulate a H-gate-shifter to LFS that is triggered via buttons on the wheel. That will make LFS drop the gearchange-time and will make button-shifters soar away again.
So as I see it button-shifters are faster than do-it-yourself drivers and they will always be.

Vain

I don't think using a H shifter/clutch makes you much slower, once you've had a couple of months to get used to it. I've been using this setup almost exclusively since around Jan this year, and I've beat all my road car PB's I'm certain. Started with a Logi FF joystick + sidewinder pedals for clutch, now use Act Labs kit.

Like Kev says though there are certain circuits you just are slower on. But, there are times when having a proper clutch saves you time as well. At first you'll probably be quite a bit slower, but as you get used to it you won't be at a disadvantage. Can't wait till LFS has better gearbox/clutch simulation, hopefully it will happen once the G25 is widespread.

Vain: But that's not the only thing that makes you slower with a shifter. When you are using the shifter you have only one hand on the wheel... it's 50% of the maximum steering ability.

Got my sidewinder joystick and i have now made it in to a shifter (but not a H shifter). Here are some pics of it