Now that the G25 is going to be a common controller with people who play LFS, I've really wondered why LFS hasn't expanded on the clutch simulation. We all know that LFS should have cars that stall and studder if you don't use the clutch properly... and even mechanical damage for the clutch.... but I honestly dislike the fact that in LFS you cannot be quick if you use your own clutch pedal manually. Right now everyone just flatshifts with automatic clutch, and the automatic clutch is just about as quick as an average joe can be with his foot and a clutch pedal. However, the work that goes into using a clutch pedal in LFS is much greater, and there really is no benefits or anything that will pay off for your skill of shifting with a clutch pedal.

At the moment Button Clutching is common if you want to gain even more tenths out of your PB or WR time, but it is so annoyingly fast, what is the point of even having a clutch pedal then??? Not to mention, that heel-toe doesn't really give you an advantage in LFS... so why bother? But I don't think LFS should be like this.

Take GPL for example. The Auto-Clutch in that game is pretty slow, but it is still useful for any normal driver to be fairly quick. However, the real pros of GPL are using a clutch pedal, and are very quick and skilled in their craft, and if they have the hardware, they definitely would have an edge over a normal driver. And afaik, if you use the auto-clutch, you do have a greater risk of damaging your gearbox or engine.... mostly due to the fact that you have to lift while shifting, but manual clutch is much safer afaik.

I am not saying that LFS should start to give people who spend more money (or have more money) the huge advantage, there just needs to be better balancing with the clutch... and for one, the long and debateable topic of requiring drivers to LIFT when shifting... that is the most important. I personally think the Auto-Clutch needs to be slower, and Button Clutch somehow outlawed or slowed aswell. Some people goto lengths as to emulate a button as an axis, just so they can use the button and not be 'caught' using button-clutch... just manual clutch. That should be fixed as well. But the real issue here is why Manual Clutch is so poorly disregarded, and it should be a part of the realism and professionalism this sim brings us. With all these nice wheels and pedals coming out on the market, the clutch simulation is so poorly done in LFS, it needs to be looked at and redone. And I strongly suggest that manual/pedal clutch be more worthwhile... or else people going out to buy nice clutch pedals are not getting their money's worth, as they will NOT be faster in LFS, and it will only be for entertainment.... and serious simmers who buy a full pedal set are not looking for 100% entertainment, they want to have the edge over other drivers. Shouldn't they be entitled to it?

If you argue it will exclude auto-clutch drivers from being fast... well I use auto-clutch right now, and I hate using button-clutch to be fast. I can see how it might feel. However, button clutch is more of an exploit than someone actually working hard with their feet like with manual-clutch. And besides, people using manual clutch have a greater risk of misshifts and other mistakes, so it kind of balances out. And not everyone using a manual-clutch would be incredibly fast, as it takes lots and lots of practice and skill. So if it was truly faster than auto-clutch, than I think it would even things out between auto and manual clutch users.

EDIT: I use a clutch pedal from time to time, and it is not fast at all, no matter how hard I try... especially because you have the tendancy to lift when shifting. Sadly, I find myself going back to using auto-clutch, because manual-clutch is just for fun and games.... I don't like that, and personally I think LFS should be a bit more professional in this respect.

I agree (mainly because I'm getting a G25 and don't want to be beaten by people without the extra work).

Maybe we can all time our manual gear changes, and analyse our replays, and tell Scawen to make the autoclutch shift time x seconds. But it's something else to balance I guess, and we'll end up with arguments about how spending money buys you 0.1 second a lap, or how the computer assists make it too easy to be fast.

I look forward to seeing what other people think...

It would be interesting to be able to see exactly what kit is being used by people on a server. At the moment you can only see whether he has a wheel (which could be a joystick) or a mouse. I'd like to know the view, shifter, clutch, degrees of rotation of his wheel, office chair, race frame, or simconmotion. I would also like to know if he's being served his beer or whether he has to get it himself. I would them have at my disposal, every excuse under the sun for being soundly thrashed EVERY BLEEDIN' NIGHT!

Fully Frexed up. Well, not the SimConMotion, the wife would raise an eyebrow at that!

My concern with these things is always the way you can cheat the system. We all know how easy it is to set up a macro to make button presses. Is it possible for a macro type thing to perform an analogue controller movement too? Even if it is not possible, people can rig up all sorts of devices to give them an edge where the software allows it.

I've seen how fast people with clutch pedals can change gear in LFS. A little controller setup and you can have the entire motion of the pedal in the top 10% making it effectively an on-off switch. A little more imagination and/or wiring/butchering other devices and you could easily get that de-clutching and also changing gear like a button or paddle-shifter. I wonder if I could rig a joystick as a clutch pedal, keep it on my desk and use triggers as gear-up and gear-down.

My point is: in a perfect world, we'd all be using the same 3 pedal setup with the same wheel and gear-selector, and there'd be some way of verifying that when you go online. But until that happens, people that use a 3rd pedal will always be at a slight disadvantage in terms of difficulty. Sure you could compensate for that a bit by further penalising auto-clutch users, but there will always be someone that with a bit of creativity has the best of both worlds. So would the situation be any better than it is now?

ps: I'm also going to buy a G25 eventually, assuming they don't fall apart.

I've felt the same way for ages now Tweaker!

Using the most "realistic" control setup possible should give max performance possible. Fudging it with aids or buttons should not give any advantage.

I've already ordered my G25 :hide:

Agreed (yes, I'm waiting for my G25 too), I'd like a proper clutch and everything mentioned above.

I think button clutch should be removed from the game. You should only be able to assign clutch to an axis or be forced to use auto clutch.

The only reason why I haven't bought or built clutch pedal into my systems is that there is no use or reason to use one in LFS. If LFS would support "realistic clutch operation" I would go and buy/build new pedals and a shifter asap. But currently there is no use to do so

So patch V: sound and clutch update timed perfectly to the release date of G25

Though I won't be getting a G25 for quite some time (when I hit lottery, $300 is enormous amount just for a "game" controller), I still completely agree with you. The clutch as it is now, is like a button as it engages and disengages at one particular spot on the axis, if I'm not mistaken, which I very well may be. I use auto-clutch, and I flat shift the race prep cars. I do lift when driving the road cars with the exception of the GTi. I don't like using exploits such as the button clutch. That is actually slower for me than auto because is would screw my timing all up. Anyways, yes, I agree that the auto clutch should be a bit slower for it to engage as well as flatshifting should be harder damagewise on the tranny.

Until an affordable clutch ($300 for a setup is just insane when you have parental responsibilities and mortgage payments to make) comes about that hangs down from the top and feels real, I won't be using a clutch too soon. I just can't get the feel for pushing the clutch pedal by stepping on it rotating at my ankle rather than using my leg to push the clutch. I can deal with just throttle and brake, but add the clutch and right foot braking in, and even the brake axis mounting on the bottom is just plain weird.

I think a position of compromise may be the better option. Forget about the button clutch for the moment, as I agree that it should be removed, and look at the manual vs auto clutch issue.

I think that manual and auto clutch should be roughly the same speed. That way neither option has the advantage and neither set of users is disadvantaged. The benefits of this compromise:

1. If you LIKE to use the manual clutch (for realism, immersion, whatever) then you are free to do so.
   
   
2. It does not allow people to "buy" that extra tenth of a second.
   

IMHO, I think that this is the fairest option.

I do not have a clutch peddel, but I also agree, any driving aid should be slower then not having to use one.

i know i'm going to be flamed now, but i'll say it anyway!

why should the button-clutch option be removed, just because a few people are going to buy a steeringwheel with manual clutch? or the autoclutch for that matter..

why ruin the game for all those who don't have the option of buying such equipment?

Quote from keltern :

i know i'm going to be flamed now, but i'll say it anyway!

why should the button-clutch option be removed, just because a few people are going to buy a steeringwheel with manual clutch? or the autoclutch for that matter..

why ruin the game for all those who don't have the option of buying such equipment?

It is not about ruining the game. It is about unfair adventage.

What unfair advantage? The only unfair advantage here is the absurd button clutch on-lift shits. Major engine, clutch, gearbox and driveshaft trauma. The auto clutch shifts pretty much as quickly as any skilled driver with a good gearbox and maybe a short shift kit could shift IRL anyway.

And last time I checked, very good and resonably priced 3-pedalled steering sets aren't exactly standard issue, so "forcing" clutch use is just plain stupid. I simply refuse to waste hard-earned cash until excellent and well-priced products dominate the market.

Besides, LFS is still devoid of ANY clutch simulation anyway. RL clutches have all sorts of intricacies such as slip points, grab points, etc. Does LFS punish ham-fisted use of the clutch as RL cars do? No. For instance, it's still impossible to stall a car in LFS through less than smooth clutch and throttle inputs.

I'm all for realism, and IRL, good auto-clutch sequential gearboxes such as Ferrari's Magnetti Marelli systems always outperform full manuals. Well, the LFS auto-clutch can't quite shift in under 200ms as RL Ferrari Enzos could, so there is no real unfair advantage. Unless, of course, you can't use full manuals properly (aka 95+% of the current driving population). If LFS simulates gearbox damage and wear, no-lift shifts will be obsolete for races of decent lengths real soon.

AS far as I'm concerned, there should be only 2 choices:

1. Auto-clutch
2. Properly simulated analogue clutch

As for a car like the BF1, auto-clutch MUST be mandatory, since the RL car is has a semi-automatic sequential gearbox. All the dedicated race cars (aka cars with slicks as a tire option) should be possible to shift clutchlessly with no damage like RL racing dogboxes, but ham-fisted operation MUST be punished with gearbox damage.

Point is, theres is no point to mess around with auto-clutch now. Just make a properly working clutch for LFS. Besides, our developeres have much more important physics issues to correct right now. MAJOR issues such as aero modelling and turbo modelling.

I just tested the RB4 yesterday to check the exact behavior of the LFS turbos. I started out stationary in 1st and started off in 1st (not drop clutch racing launch). It takes 5000rpms to fully spool the turbo to its amazingly small 12psi or so amount of boost. When was the last time I saw a 2.0L turbi I4 with only 243hp and a TINY turbo take so long to spool up? Never. I repeated the test for all 5 gears and the boost vs rpm behavior remained constant.

Just goes to show how patheticly off turbo modelling in LFS still is. With such fundamental physics issues such as this still unsolved, the last thing Scawen should do is spend time on messing with the auto-clutch.

Quote from Hyperactive :

It is not about ruining the game. It is about unfair adventage.

And like I said, if someone wants an unfair advantage, they can have one, even if manual clutch is the only allowed technique.

If you think penalising auto-clutch will instantly make it "fair" for all the manual-clutch users, then I think you are far more trusting of people than I am.

We all want everyone else to play LFS in the way we play it ourselves, but it's not going to happen, and I think the devs should be careful here, because although a few of the old faithful might now be getting 3rd pedals, there will be a lot of people thinking: "I didn't see it written anywhere that I would have to spend £100+ to get my car to accelerate to 100mph as fast as it should".

I agree with Tweak that the auto button clutch should be slower. That won't hurt any players who use the button and will make things more realistic anyway. Using an automatic option should never be faster than real life and the manual option should be capable of being as fast as its real life counterpart can be.

I also agree that more attention should be given to making the clutch work more realistically so that 3-pedal sets can be used realistically, however this is something that I would expect to be developed at some time anyway.
For me it is a given that LFS would evolve to embrace a manually operated clutch pedal and model it in a realistic manner. I think it is an essential and natural development to include in a simulator - any simulator.

What I meant by the unfair advance was that in every car you will shift flawlessly and always faster with macro button clutch than with a clutch pedal.

And I agree with you sinbad and jamexing, I just worded my thoughts badly. I meant only the macro slutch pedal, not button clutch itself

And with racing hardware, especially with pedals, you can make your own "pretty easily" and it doesn't need to cost much. And this is basically the only way to get them cheap if money is problem. If you don't have the tools, you can probably go participate in a wood working in some local hobby club, or buy the tools (basically a drill, screwdriver and a saw will do) and do it yourself. It won't be beatiful but with decent plans and patience it can be done. For pedals wood is good material. Sim racing is not yet hi-tech hardware racing

seeing as i just bought a 3 pedal set - sounds good!

Quote from Jamexing :

And last time I checked, very good and resonably priced 3-pedalled steering sets aren't exactly standard issue, so "forcing" clutch use is just plain stupid. I simply refuse to waste hard-earned cash until excellent and well-priced products dominate the market.

Besides, LFS is still devoid of ANY clutch simulation anyway. RL clutches have all sorts of intricacies such as slip points, grab points, etc. Does LFS punish ham-fisted use of the clutch as RL cars do? No. For instance, it's still impossible to stall a car in LFS through less than smooth clutch and throttle inputs.

Unfortunately "excellent well-priced products" are unlikely to ever flood the market. The problem is weight. The product becomes very expensive once it gains the obligatory weight that quality engineering provides. Weight means extra transport costs. The types of companies that dominate the market with their products rely on mass production and high profits. They aren't so concerned with making something excellent, they want it to be light, small and cheap to make. The new Logitech product sits somewhere between the cheap and nasty world of the DFP/Momo and a high quality boutique brand of controller. Export markets become unfeasable when the import duty and transport costs become too great for the product to retail at good value. That is why locally-made high quality controllers are probably the best product available, though even they fetch a higher price than the upcoming G25 and are often difficult to source overseas.

As for stalling a car in LFS, that is something that is being implemented anyway in the future. So LFS will likely punish ham-fisted clutch use in the future as well, or so we may surmise.

+1 to computer-assisted clutch speed being more closely matched to the speed of someone proficient with a manual clutch. I also look forward to proper damage modeling in the drivetrain. I probably won't have a 3rd pedal for quite some time - just can't justify the cost - but I will surely be excited when the clutch updates start rolling in.

well, i can't really see the game developing further, if they should deside to cut off people who play without the third pedal.. that is, giving them a disadvantage..

closing the gap between manual shifts and autoshift, on the other hand, is the way to handle the issue!

No, we don't want people without clutches to be at a disadvantage. We just don't want people with a clutch pedal to have a disadvantage either. In an ideal world I'd rather have neither with an advantage, although of course it'll never work like this - the manual shifter will always more chance of missing gears, or fluffing a gear change. But at the moment if I go for manual clutch I INSTANTLY am at a several tenths per lap disadvantage. How is that fair?

If the auto-clutch shifting speeds were reduced to roughly match that of doing it manually (with a clutch pedal/h-shifter) then no one would have an advantage, and everyone's lap times would be slightly slower. The only people who get an advantage would be those who can circumnavigate the shift speed, but maybe there is a way to recognise a 'super fast shift' and disallow it...

I must stress, no one wants clutched people to be quicker, but they just don't want to be forced to be slower, and vice versa.

This is NOT a topic about how good the clutch simulation in LFS is - as the G25 is going to bring more clutches to the home market (and prices WILL drop, and they WILL become more common), then it's an ideal time to improve the clutch simulation, and reduce any disadvantage caused by doing it yourself.

Quote from tristancliffe :

No, we don't want people without clutches to be at a disadvantage. We just don't want people with a clutch pedal to have a disadvantage either. In an ideal world I'd rather have neither with an advantage, although of course it'll never work like this - the manual shifter will always more chance of missing gears, or fluffing a gear change. But at the moment if I go for manual clutch I INSTANTLY am at a several tenths per lap disadvantage. How is that fair?

If the auto-clutch shifting speeds were reduced to roughly match that of doing it manually (with a clutch pedal/h-shifter) then no one would have an advantage, and everyone's lap times would be slightly slower. The only people who get an advantage would be those who can circumnavigate the shift speed, but maybe there is a way to recognise a 'super fast shift' and disallow it...

I must stress, no one wants clutched people to be quicker, but they just don't want to be forced to be slower, and vice versa.

This is NOT a topic about how good the clutch simulation in LFS is - as the G25 is going to bring more clutches to the home market (and prices WILL drop, and they WILL become more common), then it's an ideal time to improve the clutch simulation, and reduce any disadvantage caused by doing it yourself.

Well, that's exactly what I was thinking. Glad you're on the side of sensibility.

I agree with Tweeker. In an ideal world I reckon the auto clucthes should be banned along with the auto blip on downchange. Then people would have to learn to heel-toe.

Problem is very few people have clutch pedals and this would alienate a huge portion of LFS players.

Thought I'd see if manual clutch is (as I suspected) already much faster (ignoring consistency and difficulty), and well, it's not inconsiderably faster.

This is done with my brake pedal for a clutch (NOT a button), vs. normal auto-clutch with cut turned OFF.

Same setup (attached for what it's worth), same fuel load, did about 10 runs each, took the two fastest.



(again) My point is, autoclutch is already disadvantaged in the acceleration stakes, anyone that thinks or suggests otherwise is wrong, and how else would/could things be evened up any further? Further penalisation in acceleration because it's "easier" to do the braking part?

I do think we need something to discourage/prevent the constant flat-shifting (for both manual and auto-clutch) that would go some of the way there without actively slowing anybody down.