That's not quite the same as having an H shifter where you have to go through neutral. Then you would see a difference.
I have two pedal set and agree with the ban of button clutch. I doubt there are much players that use it properly (I mean not using macros), so it's only a source of exploits. No need for it.
About manual clutch? I agree there shoud be some advantage to those who use a proper clutch pedal, or a proper clutch delay for us who doesn't use it. Why? because this is a sim. Keyboard and game pad players could start moaning because they are discriminated for not buying a wheel. It's the same thing.
Come on guys, are you going to complain for some tenths lost with autoclutch?, the majority of us would cut more time if we practice the line
Cheers
About manual clutch? I agree there shoud be some advantage to those who use a proper clutch pedal, or a proper clutch delay for us who doesn't use it. Why? because this is a sim. Keyboard and game pad players could start moaning because they are discriminated for not buying a wheel. It's the same thing.
Come on guys, are you going to complain for some tenths lost with autoclutch?, the majority of us would cut more time if we practice the line
Cheers
They could be made with solid, lightweight parts, and empty volumes left for the client to load with ballast.
It isn't ballast that the extra weight comes from, it's quality materials and no shortcuts in engineering. Ergonomics also plays a part, the current flagship wheel of Logitech is the Driving Force Pro, a tiny, noisy crappy piece of junk designed to fit into a small shelf space and to be driven by tiny hands. Once you develop a quality solution the weight goes up quite a lot. The addition of a 3rd pedal and an H-gate shifter add more weight to the retail product. The current Logitech pedals and wheel are almost devoid of ballast (in this instance anchoring weight), relying on desk clamps and carpet grip systems for additional stability. People are willing to pay good dollars for good gear, but few large manfacturers (read: none of them) up until now have had the balls to deliver.
The G25 is not a product of clever thinking at Logitech, it's a product of thousands of dissapointed DFP and MOMO owners and serious sim racers who create a niche market for the product. To the present day this niche has not had a product to fill it.
Well that's another issue though. Something just as easily exploitable too, because the H shifter is actually only 6 or so buttons. Even if I couldn't program the button order into a macro, I could have an "H-shifter" at my fingertips if I wanted to.
I go back to echo my earlier point. You can "make it fair" by slowing down auto-clutch further, but it still won't be fair, and you'll just encourage more people to find these exploits.
As I said, I'm buying a G25 too. I'm just arguing the other side and do not think it is simple or easy.
I understand, I thought you meant pedal setups specificaly.
Unless a button shift was a sequence that took a certain amount of time. That way triggering the change via macro wouldn't gain you any time at all realistically because your shift would still take the minimum time to be actuated/completed.
Well, IIRC some months ago Scawen said the gearboxes were being revised and properly implemented, so maybe it's a good oportunity for the community to discuss it and find a way to try to stop cheats and exploits. I hope scawen also puts clutches in his list 
I am all for more realistic clutches with stalling, and the removal of button-clutch/macro clutching (if thats even possible ,as some will always find ways to cheat the system)
But on one hand u "complain" about buttonshifters being quicker and in the same post u say u would like manual clutches to have a clear advantage? doesnt make sense to me.
Dont forget that the majority will still be using a setup without a clutch pedal, so i dont think giving people with a clutch an advantage would be beneficial for LFS.
Imagine all the new players who come into the demo and find out that u not only need a wheel, but also a clutch to be competative. 0.5second a lap is quite alot on a 60lap race. They will be verry reluctant to buy LFS if they need a 300€ device to properly play it.
Like someone said in an earlier post, anyone with a manual clutch still has the possibility to use autoclutch ,but all the others who havent got one would be doomed to be 0.5seconds slower unless they buy a expensive wheel setup.
U also say atm the autoclutch shifts as fast as an average joe with a clutch..so wouldnt that mean if u practise alot u could be faster with your manual clutch then the autoclutch?
And what with the cars who have a sequential box (singleseaters and the racecars), if using a manual clutch in these cars was faster it wouldnt be fair either.
I wonder how all the "give manual clutchers an advantage" people would feel if they didnt have the money for a G25 and come next patch they suddenly are 0.5 seconds slower then all their friends who did buy one.
But on one hand u "complain" about buttonshifters being quicker and in the same post u say u would like manual clutches to have a clear advantage? doesnt make sense to me.
Dont forget that the majority will still be using a setup without a clutch pedal, so i dont think giving people with a clutch an advantage would be beneficial for LFS.
Imagine all the new players who come into the demo and find out that u not only need a wheel, but also a clutch to be competative. 0.5second a lap is quite alot on a 60lap race. They will be verry reluctant to buy LFS if they need a 300€ device to properly play it.
Like someone said in an earlier post, anyone with a manual clutch still has the possibility to use autoclutch ,but all the others who havent got one would be doomed to be 0.5seconds slower unless they buy a expensive wheel setup.
U also say atm the autoclutch shifts as fast as an average joe with a clutch..so wouldnt that mean if u practise alot u could be faster with your manual clutch then the autoclutch?
And what with the cars who have a sequential box (singleseaters and the racecars), if using a manual clutch in these cars was faster it wouldnt be fair either.
I wonder how all the "give manual clutchers an advantage" people would feel if they didnt have the money for a G25 and come next patch they suddenly are 0.5 seconds slower then all their friends who did buy one.
Maybe you should read the whole thread Noccy?
Last time I checked, clutch use is facing obsolescence in the top level racing world. There's no way a human can shift in under 200ms. A sim is supposed to approximate reality as closely as possible, isn't it? Hence clutch use is ideal for the road cars, but just plain silly for a car like the BMW Sauber F-1.
(thisnameistaken)
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by thisnameistaken
The thing is not an advantage for manual clutch, but a penalty for autoclutch. Like I said it's the same for mouse/kb drivers, they can use buttons instead of axis by accepting the gas/brake disadvantage because they are not using a pedal set.
But with a proper clutch simulation, miss shifting can cause problems and you can even loose time, or in the future you can damage your gearbox, so manual clutch really deserves it's advantage over auto.
My 2c
Sure you are right!, and when the gearboxes are properly simulated, there will be no difference in a car like the BF1
But in a car the FZ5, a proper gearbox/clutch with a manual clutch would be a blast.Exactly.
In fact I did read the whole thread..some posts seemed to be reasonable but ill quote a few who clearly want an advantage because they plan to buy a clutchpedal.
These are the posts i wanted to provide a counterweight to, and until u can deliver LFS with a G25 included in the price it will hurt future LFS sales.
So ill repeat that im not against slightly slowing autoclutch to realistic values, but i sure as hell dont support giving manual clutchers a sizable advantage. All that will accomplish is that every autoclutch user will start using macros and then u are back at square one.
edit : But im pretty sure Scawen isnt that fixed on ultimate realism or he would have prevented mouseusers from driving WR's long ago, just like he would have removed keyboard stabilized and external view together with virtual mirros and the like.
These are the posts i wanted to provide a counterweight to, and until u can deliver LFS with a G25 included in the price it will hurt future LFS sales.
So ill repeat that im not against slightly slowing autoclutch to realistic values, but i sure as hell dont support giving manual clutchers a sizable advantage. All that will accomplish is that every autoclutch user will start using macros and then u are back at square one.
edit : But im pretty sure Scawen isnt that fixed on ultimate realism or he would have prevented mouseusers from driving WR's long ago, just like he would have removed keyboard stabilized and external view together with virtual mirros and the like.
The awnser is not in the clutch, but in the way the transmissions work. Right now they can be slammed through gears without having to revmatch or allowing the syncros to match gear speeds. How fast the clutch engages and disengages is irelivent for the most part on either a button or auto clutch.
I want back to nKPro the other day to give it another go after hearing that work was once again happeningon it. The transmission and clutch physics in nKPro are alot better and would make LFS better as well as solve the cheats. The downside is it is by no means easy to drive, and would put a much larger learning curve on the comunity here then there is now.
In nKPro you have to revmatch the gears in cars that do not have a sequential transmission and auto-cut built in. Its hard to explain, but it will deny a shift and grind gears if you get the timing wrong. Button clutching is faster then auto clutch, a manual clutch would be even better because of the finer control an axis gives over a button with adjustable disengage and engage timing.
In nKPro it feels right, it feels hardcore, but it will alienate people that do not use a wheel. So is it right for LFS, I do not know. Maybe maybe not, in the end to make LFS as popular as possible I think to add this level of realism in woudl mean LFS needs to have two levels of realism. One that works for eveyone and is not overly complex, and one that is as real as it can be for the hardcore crowd, but that might fracture the comunity.
I want back to nKPro the other day to give it another go after hearing that work was once again happeningon it. The transmission and clutch physics in nKPro are alot better and would make LFS better as well as solve the cheats. The downside is it is by no means easy to drive, and would put a much larger learning curve on the comunity here then there is now.
In nKPro you have to revmatch the gears in cars that do not have a sequential transmission and auto-cut built in. Its hard to explain, but it will deny a shift and grind gears if you get the timing wrong. Button clutching is faster then auto clutch, a manual clutch would be even better because of the finer control an axis gives over a button with adjustable disengage and engage timing.
In nKPro it feels right, it feels hardcore, but it will alienate people that do not use a wheel. So is it right for LFS, I do not know. Maybe maybe not, in the end to make LFS as popular as possible I think to add this level of realism in woudl mean LFS needs to have two levels of realism. One that works for eveyone and is not overly complex, and one that is as real as it can be for the hardcore crowd, but that might fracture the comunity.
(thisnameistaken)
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by thisnameistaken
That was probably not so serious suggestion... but you can already see whether players are using automatic gear cut/blip option in the LFS stats race results, so I don't think it would that hard to add this info to the actual final results list. Also info about the shifting mode and clutch. Just a short letters like MC = Manual Clutch etc. Now you could notice right after finishing the race that "wow, I got beaten by a guy who uses manual clutch and a shifter, he must have uber skills because I am slower than him even that I'm using autoclutch and paddle shifting". Wouldn't that be nice?
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=159720#post159720
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=162994#post162994
Might come sooner than we think.
If you play some flight simulation, would you say "what the f*ck, I need a joystick to play this properly"? Some other racing sims doesn't even a mouse support at all. Maybe LFS is already attracting too many players for the demo who doesn't understand it is trying to be a simulation and not just some regular car game.
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I hope that in a few years clutch+shifter setup would become so common that games would have a bit more radical controller requirements, for example only possible way to use manual shifting in a car that would have H-gearbox in real life, would be using a shifter. Just think about it: now we are using unrealistically small wheel turn settings (even if you had DFP, I bet you don't use 720º on road cars simply because you can't be competitive with it), paddle shifting, autoclutching, automatic gear cut and blipping - in normal road cars and also on race cars that definately wouldn't have all those. How arcade is that?
I think most people fully accept that u need a wheel to get the most out of this game
(yes its a game. It tries to be realistic but there are clearly many things in LFS to improve sales, which would never ever be implemeted in a true sim that was developped purely for realism and didnt aim for sales)
just like u need a Joystick to fully enjoy a flight"sim". But do u see many flightsimmers arguing that everyone should use pedals to controll the rudder because it is more realistic. Or asking to reduce onstick rudder efficiency so the ones with rudder pedals get an advantage?
U should buy a clutch pedal if u like using it, not to get an advantage over others..or soon we will all need a forcedynamics system because it is more realistic and LFS will have a built in handicap for everyone who doesnt use it.
Does that sound like a good idea ?
And for the record..i might buy a G25 in oktober as my birthday is the 20th. But that doesnt mean that everyone without a clutchpedal should be punished because i like realism.
(yes its a game. It tries to be realistic but there are clearly many things in LFS to improve sales, which would never ever be implemeted in a true sim that was developped purely for realism and didnt aim for sales)
just like u need a Joystick to fully enjoy a flight"sim". But do u see many flightsimmers arguing that everyone should use pedals to controll the rudder because it is more realistic. Or asking to reduce onstick rudder efficiency so the ones with rudder pedals get an advantage?
U should buy a clutch pedal if u like using it, not to get an advantage over others..or soon we will all need a forcedynamics system because it is more realistic and LFS will have a built in handicap for everyone who doesnt use it.
Does that sound like a good idea ?
And for the record..i might buy a G25 in oktober as my birthday is the 20th. But that doesnt mean that everyone without a clutchpedal should be punished because i like realism.
For the last time - we do NOT want people WITHOUT clutch pedals PUNISHED. We just want it balanced, so NO ONE is at a disadvantage. Okay, so EVERYONE's times might go up a bit, but as it's the same for everyone, and only a few tenths, then it doesn't matter does it?
Why should people WITHOUT clutches be penalised - they shouldn't
Why should people WITH clutches be penalised - they shouldn't
Like your flight sim example - there is no disadvantage to using pedals or twistgrips, so it's not applicable. If anything I'd say the accuracy of pedals (longer movement and not shared with pitch and roll) gives a slight advantage, especially in a cross wind...
No one here wants either group to be disadvantaged. Please stop this nonsense about 'why should non-clutchers be made slower'.
Why should people WITHOUT clutches be penalised - they shouldn't
Why should people WITH clutches be penalised - they shouldn't
Like your flight sim example - there is no disadvantage to using pedals or twistgrips, so it's not applicable. If anything I'd say the accuracy of pedals (longer movement and not shared with pitch and roll) gives a slight advantage, especially in a cross wind...
No one here wants either group to be disadvantaged. Please stop this nonsense about 'why should non-clutchers be made slower'.
Exactly right. The issue is that currently people that opt for a clutch pedal for the sake of experience are the ones who suffer for it.
So i imagined the quote saying that u dont want to be beaten by someone who doesnt do the extra work (clearly implying that someone using autoclutch should not be able to beat u ,even if he is a faster driver)
or the quote saying that someone who invests extra money should get a performance advantage.
I know the general consensus is that both systems should be equal and i agree with this. But u cant say that no autoclutcher should be able to beat a manualclutcher..then say that autoclutchers wont be punished.
I'll shut up now and let u pro-clutch users have your say as i'm clearly to dumb to read a thread and the words written in it.
or the quote saying that someone who invests extra money should get a performance advantage.
I know the general consensus is that both systems should be equal and i agree with this. But u cant say that no autoclutcher should be able to beat a manualclutcher..then say that autoclutchers wont be punished.
I'll shut up now and let u pro-clutch users have your say as i'm clearly to dumb to read a thread and the words written in it.
At the moment I use button clutch instead of autoclutch, because of the immersion, not gear changing speed. When G25 is brought at my front door, I will enjoy the clutch pedal and heel&toe because of the immersion, not gear changing speed.
But I agree that all clutching setups no matter what the controller is, have to perform the same. One shouldn't be faster than other. (like it is now)
Yes, that is the main factor here in comparing the two. Because the flatshifting is the prime reason for one being faster over another. LFS's shifting simulation is all wrong, where you can "prep" a gear even before you use the clutch manually. And people flatshift for this. However when I use a clutch pedal, quite naturally people will want to lift when shifting, and that is where the disadvantage comes along when comparing it to auto-clutch or button-clutch. If people use the auto throttle blip, then it compares to someone using a clutch pedal, but everyone is just flatshifting, and that would be the first thing I'd recommend to have fixed. We should be lifting through each gear. My friend has always disliked how LFS shifts, and even though we flatshift, he still wants to lift when he shifts just because it is the proper way, and it should be like that. I am surprised this has been around for so long that it hasn't been looked after. Like Gunn said, any simulation should make sure the clutch is properly done.
Yeah, it gives you the chance to shift with "a control", but honestly button-clutching is way too fast. It is so fast, lifting between gears is pointless because it has incredible shifting/clutch speed. And the fact that you can prep a gear before you even use the clutch just makes it even easier to exploit.
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Personally, I think all the control types should require a lift of the throttle one way or another. If it is too much work for you to lift, then turn on auto-blip.
Auto blip or manual lifting are both acceptable ATM due to obvious limitations stemming from LFS's unfinished clutch simulation. The only thing that is REALLY unfair here is flat-shifting with a button clutch, which is imply wrong. As I've already said, this can be at least partially remedied by implelemting much realistic engine, gearbox and drivetrain damage. Flat shift = major mechanical trauma = possible gearbox or clutch destruction, especially for higher powered/torqued cars. That's how it is IRL and that's how it should be in LFS. IRL, race sequential dogboxes can be shifted clutchlessly, but this requires precise throttle lifts/blips, something that's beyond the average noob.
And don't quote drag cars. They're only good for a few passes before anything blows up. LFS is predominantly a racing sim, not a drag racing game.
And don't quote drag cars. They're only good for a few passes before anything blows up. LFS is predominantly a racing sim, not a drag racing game.
I really need the button clutch! What about when people without a clutch pedal spin? It's not like I can shift into neutral when I have a sequencial shifter! No clutch button: BAD idea.
I hear that all the time, but for $8 I got a silly old "Dale Earnhardt" wheel or some silly thing at the discount shop. Using one pedal works fine, even though it's single axis - LFS calibration lock makes that possible. Sure it's not super high quality, but it greatly enhances the driving experience and immersion. And it works more than well enough to use, even for proper starts (not that it matters enough right now :hide
Clutch - Manual vs Auto vs Button
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