You say that Tristan, but you are surely talking about a "levelling out" of what you perceive to be an uneven playing field. Now if that doesn't mean that one control type is made slower than it currently is, I really don't know how you intend to achieve that.
Never fully understood that. With a clutch pedal I can pretend to be driving a real car with a manual gearbox. With autoclutch I can pretend to be driving a car with a sequential gearbox. With button clutch, (an on/off switch on the wheel which I tap away at) which driving technique or real-life system am I imitating that can immerse me into the experience?
Good point, but very easily solved. The clutch, once pressed, must stay on for at least, oh let's say 0.75 of a second.
We aren't saying remove button clutch, only make it slower.
I don't think many people here know what we are referring to when we say "button-clutch". It is an exploit, and with the right settings, your shifting can be like a "click", and super fast. That is the fastest way to shift in LFS right now... and you DO get faster laptimes by gaining small tenths off your normal auto-clutch time. We don't want it removed, we just want it to be slowed down, along with auto-clutch AND/OR require drivers to at least blip the throttle manually. If they don't want to do that, then they can turn on auto-blip which should be slower than a human controlled blip... just to make the aids less of an advantage.
Yes, Tweaker 100% agree. And the silly "shift when the clutch is pressed" phenomenon must be erradicated pronto, it's been there for eons. The best solution is to make the button clutch non-instantaneous which I think most people agree with. It doesn't have to be dog-slow but it should be comparable to using your foot on a pedal.
SInbad, I know that the auto-clutchers will be made slower, but not unfairly. It's not like I want auto-clutchers to automatically be 'slower' than manual clutchers. But if every auto-clutcher is, say, 0.3 seconds per lap slower, and the defecit from manual clutching is 0.3 seconds, then everyone is happy surely?
It's not absolute lap times that matter - LFS would be still be LFS if all the cars were two second per lap slower. It's relative lap times, and at the moment the two techniques are not comparible on speed - thus people are/will be penalised for doing more work/spending more money/getting more immersion.
It's like making people with more AA slower because they have better computers. Surely it should be driver skill and not purely number of manual controls that defines speed?
The button clutch should not even be slower. What should happen is that it shifts into neutral whenever you press a clutch button. But, people can always just use a program to create a fake axis out of a button.
Chances of sometone having a program that will bypass anything are VERY SLIM.
Chances of someone using button-clutch is very high... it only takes a minute to set it up in the game, and violla, super shifting for an average noob.
- clutch button should be removed from the game, or at least make it slow like 1.2 1.3 sec time for pressing and depressing clutch completely (similar to the rfactor one, but with no ability of changing the velocity)
- ALL THE DRIVING HELPS should be penalized, made slower then those are now. Ok, someone could say that not all people have a wheel or a joy, but that's not our problem. This is a driving simulator, and when u drive u use at least 2 progressive pedals and 1 wheel. If people want to use mouse, well, they should be free of using it, but they must not have any braking help or throttle help that modulate the pedal for them like a quite good racer.
- all the gearshifting procedure should be redone, with the introduction of sequential transmission on race cars, that does not use clutch (bf1, fv8, fxr, xrr, maybe fox too). This is a good way for balancing GTR class too, by leaving only the FZR with manual clutch, after having done the clutch slower
- we NEED engine damage on heavy overrevving.
It's ridicolous that people are able to do with button clutch 6 3 or 6 2 without damaging the engine (or damaging it very very little).
This will obligate people with pedal clutch and H shifter on making realistic gearshifting too.
- no more "gear saving"
atm, lot of uf1 drivers use the feature that i call "gear saving", the fact that when u have button clutch u can press 2 or 3 time downshift button and save the sequence to be executed when u will press only one time the clutch button. This should be absolutely removed too.
For the rest, atm heel toe is already usefull with RWD and AWD cars, at least because it improve braking ability a lot. With FWD i havent feel it usefull, but i dunno if it is with them on real. If it is, it should be done in that way.
Atm these are the only things that came in my mind about these topic, if i will have any other idea i will post (im not saying that im saying all these things for the first time eh, i know that these has been repeated lot of times before, but the fact that are not yet in game mean we should continue to repeat them).
About of the risk of people cheating, we should not block ourselves on improving the game because we are scared of the (rarely) possible cheating.
We should do the game in the way WE want (or better, devs should do the game in the way they want lol ), and then, if there are possibilities of cheating and exploiting something, find a solution for blocking these without blocking the improvement of the main game concept.
Just make it realistic: the auto-clutch systems will be as fast as they would be in the 'real' car, i.e. not that great in an econobox such as the XFG or XRT (the cheapest semi-auto I know is the DSG), but pretty quick in the FZ5.
I imagine there is a wide variance between gearboxes available to racers, privateers and factory-backed, so I can't say what the most representative choice of those would be, for the GTRs.
The game should focus more on what is possible, and what is proper in terms of realism. I'd much rather have everyone required to blip manually or with an aid than to have people flatshifting and just making the game look horribly wrong. My friend really dislikes the fact that people flatshift, and in a way, he thinks that makes the game less interactive, less skill involved, and this specifically makes the game boring because you aren't driving a car as you should be driving a car.
But a fake axis is still a button, a digital input, on/off. If a real axis was essential to operate the clutch efficiently (if analogue clutch is selected in options) then a fake axis would (should) be slower or impossible to use at all. So people with buttons would be more or less forced to use the button options, fake axii would then become a handicap.
I don't think ANYONE has said: No, do not improve the clutch and transmission modelling because people could cheat. What I, and others have said, is don't expect any changes to neccessarily STOP people cheating.
I don't think I agree with some of the reasons people have given for these "improvements" either, and frankly I think it's a bit childish to only start complaining like this because suddenly it might affect you more directly. You want the way you drive to be the fastest possible way, not the most realistic way to be the fastest way. Lots of people have been using clutch pedals and H shifters for some time, I didn't hear many auto-clutch users shout "hey! I shoudn't be quicker than you, I'll go make a post in the forum".
I've shown already that a manual clutch can accelerate a car much faster than auto-clutch. Who would we use as a benchmark for "levelling out" the playing field? A complete ham-fisted noob who loses 3 seconds a lap and complains like hell, or (oh god forbid) someone that actually got faster with a manual clutch?
It's all just conjecture, and baseless suggestions imho, let's see what Scawen does with the transmission modelling.
To fully implement realistic clutch it gets quite complex in the end because it is not just the clutch, but the whole subject includes stuff like engine, transmission, differentials, clutch, user input devices, mechanical damage...
Flatshifting is a bigger problem than decent clutch simulation atm, imho. No one does flat shifting in real life with these kind of cars (minus some racecars) but in LFS it is the quickest way 99% of the time. The reason for this is that there is no punishment for overdriving in this way - the mechanical parts don't get damaged and the performance gain comes without any negative side-effects. Of course decent clutch simulation is one important factor in any good racing sim, but decent engine modelling is even more important. As said earlier there is stuff like turbos and clutchpack diffs which are unrealistic and very lacking atm..
----
Can we expect people to have 3 pedal systems? I think this question is a bit misleading as the original question should be: "if you expect to be driving a full blown racing simulator, why are you not using appropriate controls?". If I was hc flight sim player I wouldn't start complaining about the fact that some people have real plane cockpits in their houses and they have a benefit because of it. Same thing with racing car sims. If I am driving an XRT type of car without clutch pedal and shifter I expect that I am slower because I am using driving aids (autoclutch and sequental shiter; paddles).
And "forcing people to use 3-pedal systems": it is not about making the hobby too expensive. Everyone with enough patience can build their own 3-pedal systems with good results. Shifter is a bit more complicated but can be done. No one said it is easy but the other option is the expensive one. Why would sim-racing need to be super easy or super cheap? Some hobbies just need some money. For sim racing you need a wheel and pedals. For jogging you need feet.
I find it a bit strange that money is used as one reason to allow driving aids as autoclutches to be as good as clutch pedals.
Imho, the cars in LFS should be fastest when the user has similar controls as the original car in LFS. XRT should be fastest with clutch pedal, wheel and shifter. If I want to use paddles in the XRT I am using a driving aid to be able to do it. Currently I am using paddles and get away with it actually being faster than if I was using the real life controls. Which kinda makes LFS "less sim".
Where have u done the test with manual and auto clutch with BF1 or fv8?
Have you used a CLUTCH PEDAL for that test?
Or do you think that a clutch button is realistic???
And however, be more modest, you are not the only one that is fast here!
The problem is that, with manual clutch, you simply flatshifted too.
That's not realistic, in a real car you will never press full throttle during a gear changing, and that's the thing that i mean:
the velocity of the autoclutch should be REDONE considering that with a manual one you should not be able to flatshift without lifting the throttle.
Well, if there's a "LFS Steering wheel aid fund", then no one would complain about lack of steering wheels and the fact that current examples are still pathetically expensive for their less than realistic feel and function. Alas, this is no charity...
Or our developers may come up with something like the vaunted G25 at under 250AUD, then much more poeple would actually WANT to use proper controls. Alas, that's not happening too.
And no, use of a clutch pedal should not mean that you should be faster. There is no logical reason at all for a "it's seemingly more difficult and thus must be faster" rule. There seems to be an unwritten rule or dogma here that states that if it's more difficult, it must be more sim. This is an urban myth that must be eliminated.
Remeber pre-patch U tyre physics? AMAZING lack of longitudinal grip. It was much more "difficult" (to be honest it was complete lottery) to drive, especially the RWD cars, so it MUST be more sim than it currently is now right? WRONG! An under powered RWD like XR GT struggling with power understeer all the time? Now that's a sick joke.
Driver aids must mean slower? Which millenia are you from anyway? If you can consistantly beat TC equiped RL mdoern F-1 car with another such car with TC off for just 10 laps, THEN I'll agree that driver aids must mean slower. If you can shift faster than an SMG-II equiped car can, THEN I'll agree that driving aids must mean slower because "IT'S MORE SIM/REALISTIC". I can go on forever on this, but that's not the point.
Hyperactive, if you could somehow manage to build quality 3 pedal H-gate and pedal shift steering assemblies that provide unprecedented levels of realism, while still selling this to fellow LFS players at prices no greater than 200AUD, THEN you can say whatever you want without a single thought for so many fellow LFS players who are a bit less fortunate than you are. Otherwise, a touch of thoughtfulness goes a long way to welcoming more people to LFS.
As a final point, as long as quality 3 pedal sets aren't the norm and clutch simulation remains unfinished, there MUST be no changes that force the use of 3 pedal sets to achieve competitive and fun racing. The real problem here isn't the driving aids and the auto-clutch. The real problem here is flat shifting, something that can only be fixed by properly modelling engine and drivetrain damage. Otherwise, this whole thread is absolutely pointless.
Look at my earlier posts. I myself have stated that the flatshifting (for ALL control types) is a fundamental problem, and that preventing this would do a lot of good.
That test was to disprove the basic allegations that currently (I can't test future versions of LFS can I?) manual-clutch is simply slower, and to argue against the suggestions that autoclutch should simply be slowed down to level things out. I think I managed to do that.
About the flatshifting we seems to agree all toghether, but there are a pair of things in your post that i can't agree:
- You are considering real life F1 TC.
If you drive BF1 in lfs, then, quite all the times you need tc and you are faster with it. But this is a CAR FEATURE, not a driving aid.
If you drive FZ50, you will find TC too. That car seems to be faster with TC disable, but in real life that TC has been developed not for being the fastest possible, but for making the car more secure. So is logical that without TC fz50 is a bit faster, but harder to drive.
But this isn't a driving aid too.
A driving aid, in LFS, is an help that the game do to you in a car that does not support it.
If you use throttle help (that isn't TC) in XRT, THAT'S A DRIVING AID.
And imho, that's should be penalized.
Not BF1 tc or fz50 tc. Those are only simulative of real life counterparts.
edit: and however noone is saying here that harder is simulative, im the first one that want to say that this is untrue (it's more simulative GTR2 then GTR1, but GTR1 is harder to drive, and i mean to drive, not to drive at limit).
But we are saying (or at least i am saying) that the actual gearshifting procedure with autoshift and with button clutch is too much simplicistic.
In real life, cars with sequential and auto transmission have autoblip and autolift, so flatshifting in that case is realistic.
But in cars with manual transmission u have to lift the throttle, press the clutch until it disengage the gear, change gear, depress the clutch and return on the throttle.
Here, on these cars, with autoshift u simply press the gearchanging button, with button clutch you click gearchange button for how many times you want to shift and then press clutch for changing the gear to the decided value
FYI, I don't use throttle or brake help at all. And in motorsport circles, TC is considered a "driving aid". I was speaking in terms of RL motorsport practice, no in a game sense.
Og, yes, I completely forgot that everyone is entitled to own a good/awesome ultra realistic sim racing system for a cheap price...
Well, if you are interested about "from which millennia I am from", you can always check my profile.
"If I am driving an XRT type of car without clutch pedal and shifter I expect that I am slower because I am using driving aids (autoclutch and sequental shiter; paddles).".
I didn't say harder = more realistic, and I didn't say that to make clutch always faster than anything else.
For you autoclutch may not be driving aid but to me it is. And you completely misunderstood the fact that I am talking about driver aids in LFS, not stuff like TCS, ABS or such in real life.
I'll say it again. If you use paddles in XRT which has H-pattern manual transmission with a clutch pedal you are using a driving aid to make it work.
Well, if you had read my post:
If you expect to have totally realistic, totally real alike driving controls, you have sets your hopes too high. Unless you are ready to build such system from a real car.
For self made equipment: forum.rscnet.org It seems that RSC is down again, but give it a look.
Thats obvious, I don't get people who disagree with that.
I've never tried heel an toeing in a computer game, but I know that i'll be slower with it (first couple of months atleast), than with auto blip. Who cares though, it's the immersion that keeps me playing LFS, not podium finish % or anything else.
I get the feeling you are a terrible driver. I never had such problems, and found all the RWD cars fine. Not easy, but fine. The XRGT is such an easy car to drive I challenge ANYONE to spin one, regardless of patch.
), and then, if there are possibilities of cheating and exploiting something, find a solution for blocking these without blocking the improvement of the main game concept.