Quote from frokki :

Thats obvious, I don't get people who disagree with that.

I've never tried heel an toeing in a computer game, but I know that i'll be slower with it (first couple of months atleast), than with auto blip. Who cares though, it's the immersion that keeps me playing LFS, not podium finish % or anything else.

You can do a sort of heel and toe with 2 pedals too. I use it atm and with RWD and AWD is really usefull.

Usual stuff, quick to judge and not quite thinking it all through.

My real point was that there's not a single RL RWD car I've driven that spins or oversteers in such weird manners. IRL, a gentle squeeze of the throttle should gently shift weight to the rear and help stabilize the car, especially if your car has LSD. Before patch U in LFS, cars would simply snap.

As for snap oversteering the XR GT, it was WAY too easy then. All you need is just half throttle coupled with a tiny bit of constant steering angle.

Try drifting a 2 ton RWD SUV in the rain with half worn tyres. If you can do that consistantly and safely on a narrow 2-lane road filled with random puddles of water, THEN you're free to call me a no driving skill hack.

What I'm REALLY saying is that no RL RWD car I've driven with anything from low to moderately high levels of power, snap oversteers the same way as pre-patch U LFS cars did. LFS could really use some real tire data, which it MIGHT have acquired and implemented in patch U. In essence, patch U RWD cars handle much more closely to their RL counterparts.

I'm sure it would be fine.

I challenge you to drift the same awful sounding car on public roads recklessly without actually using the feeling from the car. Perhaps by mounting a camera in the car and using radio controls. I bet you'd find oversteer a touch harder and a lot more sudden. That is the big difference - even the most realistic simulator ever will suffer from this because it relies so heavily on seat-of-the-pants feel.

IRL a gentle squeeze of the throttle when you are on the limit of adhesion will cause oversteer. Funnily enough it does (and always did, albeit at slightly lower limits) do this in LFS as well. If you are only using half the available grip, either IRL or in LFS then of course a little squeeze will cause weight transfer and, probably, help.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I'm sure it would be fine.

I challenge you to drift the same awful sounding car on public roads recklessly without actually using the feeling from the car. Perhaps by mounting a camera in the car and using radio controls. I bet you'd find oversteer a touch harder and a lot more sudden. That is the big difference - even the most realistic simulator ever will suffer from this because it relies so heavily on seat-of-the-pants feel.

IRL a gentle squeeze of the throttle when you are on the limit of adhesion will cause oversteer. Funnily enough it does (and always did, albeit at slightly lower limits) do this in LFS as well. If you are only using half the available grip, either IRL or in LFS then of course a little squeeze will cause weight transfer and, probably, help.

No, it was because I was in a serious hurry in heavy rain, not some crazy stunt.

Of course you'll snap at the ABSOLUTE limit in a very well balanced car, but to have a car set to understeer moderately and STILL snap with a tiny squeeze of the throttle mid corner is just wrong. That's what I based my assesement of pre-patch U tire physics on. How on earth can you have a RWD car that's already understeering significantly and STILL snap oversteer at the slightest touch of the throttle?

Just to remind you what understeer is, it's loss of grip at the front before the rear. Which means there's grip in reserve at the rear, so a very careful throttle application should actually lead to a balanced or slightly oversteering state if your steering angle is kept steady. All this assumes you have a moderately powered (XF GTT or FZ50) car.

Guys, we are going OT

We all know that patch S made a big improvement in tyre physics, so who cares how lfs was before? illepall

Let's speak about how it will be, non about how it used to be

Quote from Jamexing :

Just to remind you what understeer is, it's loss of grip at the front before the rear. Which means there's grip in reserve at the rear, so a very careful throttle application should actually lead to a balanced or slightly oversteering state if your steering angle is kept steady. All this assumes you have a moderately powered (XF GTT or FZ50) car.

Are you sure about that last part? Any mild throttle application in any steady understeering car will generally just make for more understeer, because you're just unloading the front further still. Sure if you boot it the rears will try to overtake the fronts, and if you have enough road to run wide into you'll start to oversteer, but it takes more than a careful throttle application, even in LFS.

Quote from sinbad :

Are you sure about that last part? Any mild throttle application in any steady understeering car will generally just make for more understeer, because you're just unloading the front further still. Sure if you boot it the rears will try to overtake the fronts, and if you have enough road to run wide into you'll start to oversteer, but it takes more than a careful throttle application, even in LFS.

Sorry about the less than clear wording. I meant if you give it JUST enough throttle you'll actually end up neutralizing or oversteering the car.

If the understeer is VERY HEAVY and you squeeze it only a tiny bit, of course you'll understeer further.

A great example of this is the McLaren F-1 road car. At steady state and low speeds, it understeers heavily, but JUST enough throttle will balance or oversteer it. As you've said, booting it swaps ends.

Bottom line of this at the moment is this..

- Manual clutch still has auto clutch enabled at specific points.
- Auto clutch is too quick for cars that would be h-pattern
- Button clutch is too fast.

First the clutch implementation needs to be sorted so you can stall the car and then remove any auto clutch attributes from manual clutch.

Next button clutch should be either removed OR made as a way to operate the auto clutch. By this I mean pressing the button tells auto clutch to depress etc

Gear changes using sequential changes need to be tweaked so cars that are H pattern change gear slower to simulate using H pattern.

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With these changes I would argue that manual clutch should allow the FASTEST gear changes but as you can miss gears and stall that is a fair balance.

yeap - now i have my pedals "normal" clutch is definately slower - i will upload my results in a min

Manual clutch can only be about 1-3 100th's of a second faster than Auto-Clutch. Button-clutch is still fastest if done properly, but when you use Manual clutch, you cannot be fast if you use your pedal's full range, you gotta use something that is incredibly short and fake in order to be only 'slightly' faster.

But while racing, you aren't going to gain those small tenths out of your time, and in my opinion, that is still not fast enough.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I get the feeling you are a terrible driver. I never had such problems, and found all the RWD cars fine. Not easy, but fine.

frankly the pre patch s tyre physics were a bit of a mess
once you overstepped the line the tyre suddenly jumped from a stable equilibrium to a completely unstable one until it settled into another stable one in an unrecoverable slide

Quote from Shotglass :

frankly the pre patch s tyre physics were a bit of a mess
once you overstepped the line the tyre suddenly jumped from a stable equilibrium to a completely unstable one until it settled into another stable one in an unrecoverable slide

Pretty much agree here. There hasn't been a car that I have ever hated more than the LX6 before the patch. It was so painful after the rear got loose, but now with better tires it feels almost as good as it should. And the RA when you got oversteer at higher speeds. Pure luck to get it back without a) burning your tires, or c) use walls as brakes.

(a) shift-s)

Quote from Hyperactive :

Pretty much agree here. There hasn't been a car that I have ever hated more than the LX6 before the patch. It was so painful after the rear got loose, but now with better tires it feels almost as good as it should. And the RA when you got oversteer at higher speeds. Pure luck to get it back without a) burning your tires, or c) use walls as brakes.

(a) shift-s)

I used to drive FWD the most but now FZR and RA and LX? are my favorites.

The RA is pure joy to drive now. I love the way it pretends to be your friend until that point you make a stupid mistake at which point it stops being your friend and kicks your head in.... Great car

Quote from Woz :

I used to drive FWD the most but now FZR and RA and LX? are my favorites.

The RA is pure joy to drive now. I love the way it pretends to be your friend until that point you make a stupid mistake at which point it stops being your friend and kicks your head in.... Great car

The RA and the LX6 are in my top 3 with the XRR now, when before the patch the top 3 was FZR, FO8 and XRR. The RA can be amazing with good set but it has still too much character at higher speeds. But on tracks like KY2 or fern bay it is just marvelous to throw it around corners. And it gets better and better all the time

Quote from Jamexing :

And no, use of a clutch pedal should not mean that you should be faster. There is no logical reason at all for a "it's seemingly more difficult and thus must be faster" rule. There seems to be an unwritten rule or dogma here that states that if it's more difficult, it must be more sim. This is an urban myth that must be eliminated.

You don't seem to understand the concept being discussed. People aren't really saying a third pedal should be faster than using an auto or aided button clutch, they are saying that the button clutch gear shift sequence should be a realistic one in that it needs to be in step with how a real gear shift would occur in a similar car in real life. Additionally the manual clutch using an analogue axis should also behave more realistically. Of course an aided button shouldn't be faster than a realistic clutch and stick shift.

With these two changes LFS should in theory be quite even no matter which method you use. Manual clutching with a pedal would be closer to realism and the shift sequence for button clutch operation would be about the same.

As for the sim providing proper support and modelling for a clutch pedal (for 3-pedal sets, as an example) this just has to happen regardless of how many or few people can afford a 3 pedal set or have the time and inclination to make one.
There is no argument at all that can be made against the further development of a 3-pedal-savvy sim, it's a no-brainer.

I don't know why sometimes people feel the need to portray this type of development as somehow meaning that people will be cut out or locked out of some secret elite use of the sim or that they will be overlooked because they can't afford the same equipment as the next guy. It's melodramatic and unecessary. If the button function results in a real shift sequence in relation to timing and delivery of power and the manual clutch function does too then nobody has anything to whinge about at all. It is so crystal clear and easy to understand that both methods can be catered for without disadvantaging people who choose to enjoy the sim to the fullest degree possible.

The thing that really needs to be eliminated is irrelevant dramatic statements that cloud the real issue and derail productive discussions.

+1 Gunn

Quote from Gunn :

You don't seem to understand the concept being discussed. People aren't really saying a third pedal should be faster than using an auto or aided button clutch, they are saying that the button clutch gear shift sequence should be a realistic one in that it needs to be in step with how a real gear shift would occur in a similar car in real life. Additionally the manual clutch using an analogue axis should also behave more realistically. Of course an aided button shouldn't be faster than a realistic clutch and stick shift.

With these two changes LFS should in theory be quite even no matter which method you use. Manual clutching with a pedal would be closer to realism and the shift sequence for button clutch operation would be about the same.

As for the sim providing proper support and modelling for a clutch pedal (for 3-pedal sets, as an example) this just has to happen regardless of how many or few people can afford a 3 pedal set or have the time and inclination to make one.
There is no argument at all that can be made against the further development of a 3-pedal-savvy sim, it's a no-brainer.

I don't know why sometimes people feel the need to portray this type of development as somehow meaning that people will be cut out or locked out of some secret elite use of the sim or that they will be overlooked because they can't afford the same equipment as the next guy. It's melodramatic and unecessary. If the button function results in a real shift sequence in relation to timing and delivery of power and the manual clutch function does too then nobody has anything to whinge about at all. It is so crystal clear and easy to understand that both methods can be catered for without disadvantaging people who choose to enjoy the sim to the fullest degree possible.

The thing that really needs to be eliminated is irrelevant dramatic statements that cloud the real issue and derail productive discussions.

I was arguing against the fact that some people think that manual clutch should be faster than all other forms of clutching. That is just as wrong as the currently super fast button clutch.

I'm all for realistic cluthcing and shift speeds. I just can't stand the fact that some people think more manual inputs must mean more speed.

That's just neither realsitic nor fair.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Pretty much agree here. There hasn't been a car that I have ever hated more than the LX6 before the patch. It was so painful after the rear got loose, but now with better tires it feels almost as good as it should. And the RA when you got oversteer at higher speeds. Pure luck to get it back without a) burning your tires, or c) use walls as brakes.

(a) shift-s)

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