yeah, by 'arbitrarily preheated' I meant the current level of pre-heating (up to what, 90 degrees or so for some tyres?) seemed just as unrealistic as being able to adjust the temp - was curious why you didn't think so, I understand it's just an opinion and your not bashing it as gospel

the obvious decision for me, and i hope he does it this way, is to be coherent with the rest of lfs.
that means, "from pits" if hardcore mode was selected, and optional if hardcore mode was not selected.
hardcore mode will come sooner or later, and will lock and pre-set many options and i hope this one is one of those.
Seems preety obvious tbh there are things a lot harder to solve in lfs.

well, the hot lap and the qualification would start from the pit with this way

Well, I believe that a warmup lap and the hot lap itself all make part of an strategy, and they do make part of the game.


While I agree that a warmup lap on AS GP with UF1 would be extremely boring, IRL we don't have perfectly pre-warmed tyres, nor start from where we want, and the way that you do a warmup lap have impact on setting up the car.

So, I still prefer the "the most realistic, the better" way that LFS started to be developed, rather than keep some "flaws" that can make the "game" more fun.

Once on a national championship I remember that on qualify I brought the car to the pits after my qualifying lap, parked the car inside the pits, and then I realized that I didn't need that. I was so focused on the racing atmosphere that I almost forgot that I was on a simulator. And honestly, it was fun.

Although i've not done much hotlapping lately, I have done alot of hotlapping but I agree with Tristan on this, Even though i'm perfectly happy with the current hotlap system (Except the reverse thingy but that's been sorted) I would like to see a change and I back the start from the pit area idea.

Obviously I do have worrys, like Ky GP Long UF1 (Hopefully it never happens) I really couldn't be bothered driving the whole way round and then invaliding my lap for some stupid reason.

I will wait happilly to see what we get out of this, as a change is allways good IMO.

Quote from Honey :

in real life racers have the thing that bring tyres on temperature...why having it in lfs would be unrealistic? ...some people like to do useless laps and do averything by themself? let it be an option!

You already have it, u start with different R types of tires at 65, 80 or 100 degree, not at ambient temperature

In real life they have the things that warm the tires, yes, but these temps are far from optimal, they have to heat up tires during launch lap too.

I think it's very important for LFS' overall image to get these minor details right. Right now you'll find "arcadey" features everywhere, like the qualifying and hotlap start positions. Sure, they make the game "faster", but IMO alot of immersion is being thrown out of the window by being so... unserious. Don't know how to say it better

I'd rather have the screen fade in while the AI is driving the car for a few seconds, then you take over the controls, rather than being teleported in the middle of nowhere on the track, standing still.

The tyre physics are now finally at a state where they can be left alone for some time. Now, after Scawen improved the user interface alot with the test patches, I'd wish that finally the whole race management gets a realism overhaul. Appearing professional (and I'm not talking about the menus, they're fine) goes a big way for the first impression of new/potential racers. Well, we'll see what the next patch brings.

I agree with Biggie's idea. It has more advantages then disadvantages, and if it's only with hotlapping it doesn't inflect racing (league's). Perhaps make it also possible in Qualify sessions, in real racing they also warm up the tires before.

My opinion is:

1. Leave HL starting position as it is now.
2. Standing start with preheated tires.

In fact these are the best solutions I've found in this thread. Also it shouldnt be hard to code (if the temp is fixed).

Of course by "preheated" I mean "close to optimum", like 5-10*C below. It's up to Scawen to code either fixed or adjustable temperatures.

But definitely starting a HL with "blue" tires isn't good. They should be much closer to "green".

as long as starting position is "unreal", I'd go for preheated tires, cause somehow the car should have gotten to that point of the track anyway. The moment you put starting position to pits, then you stay with the current temps for sure.

The second conclusion, the real one, would suit my understanding of sim more. On the other hand there is this minority of maybe 5 people, who just hotlap. So why not consider some precious worktime to solve their prob.... j/k

Quote from Vykos69 :

The second conclusion, the real one, would suit my understanding of sim more. On the other hand there is this minority of maybe 5 people, who just hotlap. So why not consider some precious worktime to solve their prob.... j/k

Okay... I'd call this way of reasoning ridiculous. Maybe there aren't many people who hotlap exclusively but then again, how do you explain the filled hotlap charts? Because nobody uses the hotlapping mode anyway? Right. There's a good bunch of people who seem to be using the hotlapping mode - even if not exclusively. So the opinion of those people should be counted too.
Your attitude towards hotlapping sometimes annoys me a little... I respect you for what you do (racing only), can't you just do the same?

Hotlapping should be supported as it helps to find out what laptimes the cars are able to do. I like to be able to compare the performance of two cars by just looking at the hotlap-chart. Thus I'd say: Do everything necessary to make hotlapping comfortable.

That's one opinion from a non-hotlapper's point of view.

Vain

Quote from Vykos69 :

as long as starting position is "unreal", I'd go for preheated tires, cause somehow the car should have gotten to that point of the track anyway. The moment you put starting position to pits, then you stay with the current temps for sure.

The second conclusion, the real one, would suit my understanding of sim more. On the other hand there is this minority of maybe 5 people, who just hotlap. So why not consider some precious worktime to solve their prob.... j/k

[confused] maybe its to early and/or i do not understand you but if so...i dont get your point (still).[/confused] I would say we need at least preheated tires when starting from the pits and tires with current temps when starting from the "spawn point". When you leave some of the pitlanes tires cant build up temp but the opposite of that so thats why i do not get it.

Quote from Vykos69 :

Do everything necessary to make hotlapping comfortable

+1 "why should we try to make something realistic which does not even exists in RL ?"

Quote from biggie :

Okay... I'd call this way of reasoning ridiculous. Maybe there aren't many people who hotlap exclusively but then again, how do you explain the filled hotlap charts? Because nobody uses the hotlapping mode anyway? Right. There's a good bunch of people who seem to be using the hotlapping mode - even if not exclusively. So the opinion of those people should be counted too.
Your attitude towards hotlapping sometimes annoys me a little... I respect you for what you do (racing only), can't you just do the same?

How much more shall I write, to show that I was kidding? Your reaction shows lack of humour and is the actual annoying part... come on, j/k means JUST KIDDING!

As I said, and this contributes to the discussion again: I'd like to see a real version, that you start from pits, with the tires at the temps as it is now. If this is not in the way, the devs like it, then give the tires more temp (not selectable by players, just more, to keep it even), and start from last split. If you'd start from pits with the normal temp, your tires would be at that about 10°-15° more higher temp at last split anyway.


Still, I'd vote for startpoint at pits, with tires preheated as they are now, when you exit pits.

Quote from Vykos69 :

I'd like to see a real version, that you start from pits, with the tires at the temps as it is now. If this is not in the way, the devs like it, then give the tires more temp (not selectable by players, just more, to keep it even), and start from last split. If you'd start from pits with the normal temp, your tires would be at that about 10°-15° more higher temp at last split anyway.


Still, I'd vote for startpoint at pits, with tires preheated as they are now, when you exit pits.

And I'd vote the same thing right with you. Why? Logic.

Quote from Vykos69 :

How much more shall I write, to show that I was kidding? Your reaction shows lack of humour and is the actual annoying part... come on, j/k means JUST KIDDING!
Still, I'd vote for startpoint at pits, with tires preheated as they are now, when you exit pits.

Well sorry, misunderstandings happen. It wasn't quite easy for me to figure out which part of that paragraph was meant as a joke an which wasn't...

+1 for all driving starts from the Pits. Please keep LFS on the Simulation Path.

You usually do have to warm up the tires during the Out Lap... Starting from the second Split time should not be kept in the long term in LFS IMHO

I also would like to see the Road Cars starting from the Pits without preheated tyres.

And another thing I like to be able to do is going from the Pit Box directly to the Box "Garage" Options.

At the moment you drive into the Pits and drive inside your Pit House, when you make a normal Pitting in drive, during Practise or Qualy Sessions you would have to click ESC and click on "Box" to get into the Pits Garage while your standing inside the Pits already.
In Grand Prix Legends for example, when you stop at your Pit sign and press a button it gets you immediately to the Garage Options - cause your already drove into the Garage. Would be nice to have that also in LFS when you drive into the Pit Home

I've read the whole thread and I think you guys should have 1 thing in mind before suggesting changes

>>>>> Hotlapping is a different game than Racing <<<<<

I like this game because it's a driving simulator, I've spent a lot of money buying hardware just to enjoy the experience of driving racing cars that I couldn't otherwise in real life. I've bought a G25 Wheel, a bigger screen/monitor and even built a cockpit just to get that "racing feeling" when I play... but it's still a GAME

LiveForSpeed offers 2 different driving experiences:

1.- Hotlapping

2.- Online Racing

The first one is a battle against the chrono, the second one is a battle against other racers and they both got their good points to be enjoyable in their own ways


When I play hotlap I try to make a good set that would let me run a perfect superpole, looking for the limit of the car and my own skills. And for this goal I don't need a lot of wasted time heating the tyres or driving nonsense laps just to get an optimal condition to drive a fast lap, because it's not fun at all.
I can't see the point of adding pit starts in hotlap mode, it won't be more realistic because, again, it isn't realistic to hit a button and restart after you've crashed your car against a wall, it will be just more time consuming


But when I play online mode it's a total different world... if you've ever played in leagues you will notice that the whole mood is different, you have to THINK different, your sets are no longer built to drive the fastest lap, now you need 2 different sets, one set built to last a long race with the best possible pace and a second one built to drive the fastest possible lap in a 10 minutes (or more) qualification but with enough room to make mistakes without screwing it.

It's precisely in this mode where I'm looking for the most realistic experience and where the most realistic aspects of the game helps to the inmersion feeling of taking part in a real competition


So following this reasoning, adding pits starts in qualification mode it's completly logical and may help the simulation experience (because this way you could control when to go out from pits, get the timming of "the traffic" and a lot more things), but adding pits in hotlap would just be more time consuming and wouldn't contribute anything to the simulation experience since the goal of hotlapping is different from racing


And always keep in mind that we're spending time playing a game that should be, by all means, FUN

I don't really race anymore but when I did it was predominantly in leagues and the only way to sort divisions was by using hotlaps. From my point of view it was far from ideal.
I think there could be room for two types of hotlaps without actually creating two types of hotlaps. Stick with me I'll start making sense in a second
Have a selectable option for say "Realistic Hotlaps" and "Pure Hotlaps" that are essetially the same in that they all go on the same chart but they have a slightly different hlvc which in effect appears on the charts much like throttle blip/cut etc. do.
The 'Pure' hotlaps would be much as they are now for people who hotlap for hotlappings sake like Biggie. LFS has kinda invented something new here which some people prefer to normal racing and there's little reason to destroy this for the supposed push for more realism. Maybe even include such things as tyres up to optimum temp and pre-cut/worn tyres.
The 'Realistic' hotlaps would be more like mini qualifying runs, start from the pits with tyre temps as they currently are and no driving backwards. On long circuit/car combos you could have alternate entrances onto the track near the last split. There's probably even a few other things you could do that I haven't thought about to bring things more into line with what league racing is all about.

When a league queries LFS World for hotlap times to sort divisions it can look for the ones with the 'Realistic' flag.

Another idea I've had which is getting a bit off topic now but I'll throw in just for good measure You could have a completely separate type of hotlapping where depending on the car/track combo, your required to complete x minimum number of laps and an average is taken to give the final lap time.

I'm not a hotlapper. I only really use hotlapping for setup testing and learning the tracks. That said, I agree with Tristan and the other guys who want to see cars always start from the pits. This is how it would be in real life and this is how it should be in LFS.

I want immersion and realism. Being magically transported to the other side of the track ruins that, IMO.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

I want immersion and realism. Being magically transported to the other side of the track ruins that, IMO.

how so ? the only reason people dont do it in real life is because they cant
adding chores like starting the engine cough-nkp-cough or driving a whole lap just to hotlap doesnt make the game any more realistic or immersive it makes the game annoying

Quote from Shotglass :

how so ? the only reason people dont do it in real life is because they cant
adding chores like starting the engine cough-nkp-cough or driving a whole lap just to hotlap doesnt make the game any more realistic or immersive it makes the game annoying

Says you. I personally feel that it is bad for immersion and realism, and would prefer to always start out from the garage with the engine off.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Says you. I personally feel that it is bad for immersion and realism, and would prefer to always start out from the garage with the engine off.

I kinda agree, the more real, the better.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

I'm not a hotlapper. I only really use hotlapping for setup testing and learning the tracks. That said, I agree with Tristan and the other guys who want to see cars always start from the pits. This is how it would be in real life and this is how it should be in LFS.

I want immersion and realism. Being magically transported to the other side of the track ruins that, IMO.

I don't understand why you don't use Single Player mode for this rather than Hotlapping mode then. As has been so eloquently put before, hotlapping and racing are basically two different games with two different mindsets. I think it would be terrific if all these "realism" features like starting from the pits (and... and... I can't remember if there was something else) were added to the Single Player and Multi Player racing modes, but to make hotlapping even more tedious than it is is just silly. I have almost 100 hotlaps online, with many more that I never felt were worth uploading; I'm no top 10 nutter or anything, but I have spent a lot of time in hotlap mode.

I agree with Cue-Ball, I'm also no hotlapper, still I use the mode to test setups. And I'd also like to see the cars starting from the pits.
So why not using single-player mode?
Plain and simply, don't you ever drove a lap that was so fantastic in single player mode, that you whiched you could upload it?
I sometimes have and if I try to reproduce it, it doesn't work anymore.
That's why I practice in hotlap mode, to be able to upload an hotlap if by any chance I produce a fast one.