Why use the cockpit cam? it's the most useless cam angle in whole universe. Use all the pixels on your screen to see the road.Don't keep half of them busy with dashboard and wheel and glowes and so on...More you see, faster you go i think.

no...its a thing of feeling and / or beeing used to it.
i always drive with cockpit cam, i just cant drive with bumper cam.
one reason might be that i use mouse to drive, and it i cant tell wheres the center when i dont see the wheel.
another reason is, i just cant get the dimensions of the car right.
with bumpercam i always take corners to early (and to fast)and with a bad line.
plus...it just gives this....feeling...like ur in a real race, and not spectator (bumpercam ).

I personally used to use cockpit cams exclusively; until I started playing NR4. The cockpit covered up so much of the screen, I could barely see anything and I switched to the roof cam. Now, in rFactor, I race almost exclusively from the TV Cockpit cam (Usually like the roof cam from the papy nascar sims) and in LFS, I use a custom camera. For open wheelers, I place it right about where the TV Camera would be (centred atop the engine intake above the driver's head) and for the tin-tops, I use a roof or dashboard cam. Having the low-detail cockpits of LFS doesn't entice me to use cockpit cams, either.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Gunn, you're mixing objectivity with subjectivity.

No I'm not, you just didn't read my posts properly. But as usual it's a waste of time trying to discuss the reasoning behind concepts without people looking for an argument. You can argue amongst yourselves now, and put words into each other's mouths all you like, I don't feel like playing stupid word games. I'll promise one thing though, the next time I'm tearing around a racetrack with my head sticking out of the sunroof, or I decide to drive to work strapped to my front bumper, I'll try to empathise with others and attempt to fool myself into believing that I'm really strapped in to the driver's seat looking out of the windscreen.

I drive my real cars from cockpit view so why would use anything less immersive in a sim? And it is not that you see everything around you when you're sitting in a real car. A real car's cockpit has its negative sides and I want those negative sides in my sim too.

Of course it is easier to use bumper cameras and hood cameras but for me those "views" are pure arcade

Quote from Hyperactive :

I drive my real cars from cockpit view so why would use anything less immersive in a sim? And it is not that you see everything around you when you're sitting in a real car. A real car's cockpit has its negative sides and I want those negative sides in my sim too.

Of course it is easier to use bumper cameras and hood cameras but for me those "views" are pure arcade

Perfectly put, although Gunn's posts are excellent too!

This thread just seems to have degenerated to a game of whether you can beat the previous highest piss mark on the toilet wall.

No. Wait. Sorry. Thats unfair to the kids who do that in primary school. This is far more childish.

Quote from Gunn :

...

No need to get huffy here. I guess I have misread your post, as you stated "being surrounded by a cockpit is always going to provide the more realistic immersion for a simulator". Now with that statement I can agree, I think I just overread the "realistic" at first, which gives the sentence quite a different meaning. Maybe I'm just too stupid and my English sucks too much to immediatley notice such fine nuances.

Whats R4 ?

Quote from W1ldPort75 :

Whats R4 ?

It's the GTR version of R2.

Quote from xaotik :

It's the GTR version of R2.

LOL!!

Jesus you guys can get into a hissy fit over anything,how you enjoy your sim of choice is entirely up to you and no matter how many ways you argue the point you will never change or should you change someones opinion on how they enjoy there simming experience...

For me i use bumper cam (1st person for want of a better word) because it suits me and i cant for the life of me see why i should go on a crusade to CONVERT others to my cause

Please fellas can we just enjoy the game and leave measuring our e-penis's to another forum...

Could someone who is not using the cockpit view tell me why it is not the most realistic/most immersive/most <else> view? Please? I'm not trying to "convert" you or anything like that - I'm just interested why you are using it because for me it just doesn't work

(E-penis +10, -???)

and what the hell is r2 ??? omg illepall

anyone who's recently started driving IRL or at least remembers what it was like will agree that cockpit is the most realistic. My 1st time in a car, i had a bit of trouble knowing exactly how close my car was to the curb. After a while you get a good feel for where the car is. just like with the cockpit view in lfs. with bumpercam it is much easier to tell where the car is for beginners.

I wouldn't say it's not most immersive or most realistic, but on a single 19'' screen it's a pain to have a third of my precious screen space used by the cockpit, especially on the outsides (the top/bottom is not that important).
I'm using cockpit in open-wheelers and a custom bonnet-cam in tin-tops.
I may lose the immersion of the cockpit itself, but I gain a lot of periphal vision (which I would have in a real cockpit, or maybe with a three-screen setup). And as I see the bonnet I also know where the wheels are and where my car ends.

I have been driving IRL for close to 23 years yet i still prefer bumper/1st person everytime, its just a personal preference nothing more...

Tell me if you ride a bike/motorbike do you look through the bars/fairing or over the top for a better veiw?

ps: i use no virtual gauges ( more realistic for me anyways)

in a car you cant see through the dashboard of a car . it is more than a preferance. its okay if you dont want to bother adjusting to the feel of using dash. i have a 19 inch monitor as well.

Quote from richo :

For me i use bumper cam (1st person for want of a better word) because it suits me and i cant for the life of me see why i should go on a crusade to CONVERT others to my cause

Please fellas can we just enjoy the game and leave measuring our e-penis's to another forum...

Oh here's another one looking for a fight. Maybe you should learn to read as well. Let's force-feed it too you so you don't make the mistake of misinterpreting people's intentions and then making snide remarks about it.

I've tried to show you some reasons why people prefer cockpit view, I couldn't give a toss what camera you use, it isn't about you. It isn't about me either, it's about debunking the idiotic notion that people who prefer cockpit view feel elitist or better than you in some way because you don't/won't/can't use it. I've tried to show that the reasons for using cockpit view are logical ones, it has nothing to do with who is better than who, no matter how much you want it to be that way.

Convert you? What the hell for? You can't make people change their minds by converting them unless they are weak-willed and naive in the first place. Are you weak-minded and naive? Do you feel a bit of a conversion coming on? Didn't think so. A pissing contest is the last thing I'm interested in, instead I tried to have a discussion (remember what those things are?) but because we really live in a gigantic reality TV show people feel the need to try and vote you off rather than participate in the discussion, it becomes a pissing contest. I refuse to piss with you.

When someone presents a view for you to digest and ponder do you truly think they are making a personal attack on your position? Maybe that's what you want? Insults are so much easier than thoughtful conjecture or passing on actual knowledge. All your post achieves is the perpetuation of the same silly notion that cockpit users feel superior to you. So I guess you missed the point of my original explanation, either that you or you just want a fight.

So go ahead, attach false meanings to people's comments, put words into their mouth that were never said and walk around in a circle kicking yourself in the arse until you're the only one left arguing, arguing about something that wasn't even being discussed in the first place.

I'm done with this topic and I'm just about done with trying to have an intelligent discussion on these forums, it seems that only about ten percent of you have anything at all to say these days.

Quote from Gunn :

I've tried to show you some reasons why people prefer cockpit view, I couldn't give a toss what camera you use, it isn't about you. It isn't about me either, it's about debunking the idiotic notion that people who prefer cockpit view feel elitist or better than you in some way because you don't/won't/can't use it. I've tried to show that the reasons for using cockpit view are logical ones, it has nothing to do with who is better than who, no matter how much you want it to be that way.

If you went some way to acknowledging the rational points from both sides, you'd avoid all this business of 'people looking for fights'...
I still don't understand why the cockpit has to be on the monitor - why not surrounding the monitor? Thinking of the monitor more as a hole to look through, rather than as an exact representation of what the driver in the virtual car would see.

Right - I downloaded Rfactor tonight to try it out...


BWAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....


anyways - it seems unfair to compare it to LFS - it seems more along the lines of TOCA Race Driver 3 or GTR2.

uninstalled within 6 minutes

if you're going to try it, at least do it the favour of running a half decent controller.ini

Quote from Blowtus :

If you went some way to acknowledging the rational points from both sides, you'd avoid all this business of 'people looking for fights'...
I still don't understand why the cockpit has to be on the monitor - why not surrounding the monitor? Thinking of the monitor more as a hole to look through, rather than as an exact representation of what the driver in the virtual car would see.

I just can't understnad the logic of looking through the monitor - omg there is the dashboard! When I look at my monitor (20" lcd) I see the same thing what I see when I sit into my car (XRR, pink, with neons) I see dashboard as well. To compare that view to some bonnet view or bumper view is for me like comparing eye view to a TV view in football game, the other one doesn't show what the player (driver) really sees.

As most of us are here for realism and racing immersion, I see no reason to use some "aided views" - take a look at he nascar 2003 sim. Sit in the car and tell me if your view is blocked. Then I tell you that so is the view of real nascar drivers blocked in the same way. Plus they are wearing helmets and are sitting in shaky places so their vision is more "blocked" than a sim racer's view ever will be.

When I sit in FXO GTR, I have the front A pillar blocking my view into corners, the mirrors are small and I don't see what is going on around me very well. But that's the way it is in real life so why should use some unrealistic view to overcome something what the real drivers can't overcome. And I said that it is unrealistic because real drivers don't sit on bonnets, neither they do sit on the roof of their cars. I am not saying that they wouldn't if they could but the don't because they can't. I'm sure that any F1 driver would take some kind of roof-camera instead of what they have got simply because roof-cameras would allow them to see better. A lot better.

But normal human eye can see a lot wider "horizon" than a sim racer can through his/her monitor(s). Yes, true, but real life racers don't have virtual mirrors and they can't turn their head in 0.001 seconds from full right to full left and see perfectly what is going on there. Take a test: Go sit in your car. Look very quickly on the left and then instantly turn your head pointing straight forward. Now tell me what you saw. Then do the same in LFS. In real life you need to look in that direction just a little longer so your eys get time to adjust - when you turn your "viewing point" in a sim you don't need to adjust anything, just a quick glance and you get the picture. Again, sim racer is getting more than real life racer, imho of course.

Please tell me why anything other than cockpit view is realistic because I can't make even one reason why cockpit shouldn't be the only view a racecar driver needs to drive a car in a sim?

I am not trying to tell you to stop using any other views in LFS. I am just etlling why I will never use anything else than a cocpit view.That is of course not applicable with Gran turismos, because there you don't have cockpit views

Quote from Hyperactive :

Please tell me why anything other than cockpit view is realistic because I can't make even one reason why cockpit shouldn't be the only view a racecar driver needs to drive a car in a sim?

Suppose I had a real cockpit setup here - why would it be less realistic to have my monitor setup in place of the windscreen?

Quote from richo :

Please fellas can we just enjoy the game and leave measuring our e-penis's to another forum...

So they are replacing the e-cash concept with e-penis's ?

There are some e-penis's running on-line who can be recognized without a label, but bringing the concept to a forum is brilliant