Been suggested before multiple times, especially in relevance to a much asked for "hardcore" mode.

Sounds like this thread.

imho, its a bad idea. But the rest of the community don't appear to agree.

Quote from the_angry_angel :

Sounds like this thread.

imho, its a bad idea. But the rest of the community don't appear to agree.

I agree

Quote from the_angry_angel :

Sounds like this thread.

imho, its a bad idea. But the rest of the community don't appear to agree.

Why do you think it is a bad idea?

Just wondering

People use the driving aids they need/want. Who are the server ops to dictate our gameplay experience? Aside from providing a combo which is advertised on the game select screen.

I for one dont have an H shifter, and being a single seater race fan i'm not going to buy one either - but that doesn't mean I dont hop into a saloon from time to time .

I don't like the idea of forcing people to use X,Y or Z. I'd be happy to see some sort of recognition in the userlist of people running in 'hardcore' mode so they can differentiate themselves form the 'softcore' people , but that's as far as I'd go. Being 'hardcore' should be an option not an obligation.

Quote from Becky Rose :

People use the driving aids they need/want. Who are the server ops to dictate our gameplay experience? Aside from providing a combo which is advertised on the game select screen.

I for one dont have an H shifter, and being a single seater race fan i'm not going to buy one either - but that doesn't mean I dont hop into a saloon from time to time .

Quote from i30i3i3y :

I don't like the idea of forcing people to use X,Y or Z. I'd be happy to see some sort of recognition in the userlist of people running in 'hardcore' mode so they can differentiate themselves form the 'softcore' people , but that's as far as I'd go. Being 'hardcore' should be an option not an obligation.

I think there is a big confusion. Nobody wants to dictate somebody elses Gameplay Experience. No driving aid or other views should be changed or removed from the Sim off or online.

An additional Option on some Servers are not going to dictate your Gameplay experience at all.

As alot of Sim Racers drive with 2 pedals and other views there will always be enough and most likely a Majority of Servers without Hardcore Mode enabled.

Take a look at Nascar Racing 2003, there are for sure more than 2/3 of the hundreds of Hosts without Forced Cockpit view.

But there are some with, and thats appreciated.

If you have lets say 100 LFS Servers online, and 10 of them have the Hardcore Mode enabled, I have a hard time seeing the problem regarding your Gameplay experience. It wont be affected in any way except that you may have a few less Servers to choose from. But with all those Servers to Race on I dont think it is that big of a deal.

Quote from George Kuyumji :

If you have lets say 100 LFS Servers online, and 10 of them have the Hardcore Mode enabled, I have a hard time seeing the problem regarding your Gameplay experience. It wont be affected in any way except that you may have a few less Servers to choose from. But with all those Servers to Race on I dont think it is that big of a deal.

Let's imagin you want to drive some TBO/Aston Club right now. There's exactly one single server with that combo. And it's not a weird combo like XFG/Aston GP, it's a perfectly normal standard combo. And there's one single server to choose from. Actually I wouldn't like having "fewer" servers to choose from because that'd mean I wouldn't be able to play LFS with the combo I'd like.

I can tell you some more combos... LRF/KY Nat, FO8/Aston GP, LX4/Fern Bay Gold, the liste is long. A hardcore-mode-option would harm LFS's multiplayer very much.

Oh, and this is speaking about server activity in europe's prime time. Talk to americans or australasians about it and it get's even worse.

Vain

Quote from Vain :

A hardcore-mode-option would harm LFS's multiplayer very much.

Not having hardcore options is already harming the LFS multiplayer experience for me. The public server scene is not satisfying at all. Hardcore servers would give me more places to race online and I know I would be more likely to have serious races there. So it can only be a good thing for me.

You can be sure that many racers would enjoy hardcore server configurations for a multitude of reasons. Soon there will be a lot of people in the community with H-gate shifters and clutches. If you ask them in a few months time if they would enjoy a proper race against others who use similar gear I bet the majority all be keen to join in for the challenge. Without hardcore options it is not going to be possible.

Quote from Vain :

Let's imagin you want to drive some TBO/Aston Club right now. There's exactly one single server with that combo. And it's not a weird combo like XFG/Aston GP, it's a perfectly normal standard combo. And there's one single server to choose from. Actually I wouldn't like having "fewer" servers to choose from because that'd mean I wouldn't be able to play LFS with the combo I'd like.

I can tell you some more combos... LRF/KY Nat, FO8/Aston GP, LX4/Fern Bay Gold, the liste is long. A hardcore-mode-option would harm LFS's multiplayer very much.

Oh, and this is speaking about server activity in europe's prime time. Talk to americans or australasians about it and it get's even worse.

Vain

Right, you would have fewer Servers to choose from, but it should still be up to the Host what kind of Racing he wants to organize.

Some Track-car combos might not be joinable then, but lets not overestimate how much Servers are going to run with that Options on. It would be few and it depends on how many drivers would join.
And other Sims have showed that the Majority do not want to host forced Settings, so only a few Servers would have them on. It would be good for leagues too to have that Options.

Would be nice to have some words from Scawen about this if he has time or have he stated anything related to this in the past?

Quote from severin_schoepke :

It would be cool to also be able to force cockpit view.

I don't understand that. Some people prefer bumper cam (I don't prefer but useful if you have a home build cockpit or something) and probably the large majority of players already uses cockpit view. I don't understand how anyone could even play with the chase view, it's their bad if they do use it.

Quote :

*a remark here: It would be cool to define for each car what kind of gearbox it uses (at the moment sequential or H shifter) and then force the type of gearbox on the server. So for example the XRT could be defined to have a H shifter and the server should then have the option to force the use of a H shifter for this car...

According to this, Scawen might be working on it right now: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=159720#post159720

I don't understand what's the point of some kind of hardcore mode, LFS is a friggin' sim and we don't need separate semi-hardcore and true-hardcore modes. I suggested a month ago or so removing auto blip/cut completely from cars that would never have those in real life (thread here), but majority of people disagreed with me. Kinda funny that we pretend to play a true simulation and still everyone wants to use driving aids... don't get me totally wrong, of course it's pretty hard to use manual clutch without a third pedal, that's why I'm not saying manual clutch should be forced. But everyone can do blipping and cutting manually with a regular 2-pedal setup so it definately doesn't make things unfair.

Quote from deggis :

I don't understand that. Some people prefer bumper cam (I don't prefer but useful if you have a home build cockpit or something) and probably the large majority of players already uses cockpit view. I don't understand how anyone could even play with the chase view, it's their bad if they do use it.


According to this, Scawen might be working on it right now: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=159720#post159720

I don't understand what's the point of some kind of hardcore mode, LFS is a friggin' sim and we don't need separate semi-hardcore and true-hardcore modes. I suggested a month ago or so removing auto blip/cut completely from cars that would never have those in real life (thread here), but majority of people disagreed with me. Kinda funny that we pretend to play a true simulation and still everyone wants to use driving aids... don't get me totally wrong, of course it's pretty hard to use manual clutch without a third pedal, that's why I'm not saying manual clutch should be forced. But everyone can do blipping and cutting manually with a regular 2-pedal setup so it definately doesn't make things unfair.

The Approach other Sims are handling the driving aids advantage is to let the car be a little slower when having driving aids enabled. GPL does that, and thats fair IMHO. Although I'm not sure if LFS doesnt do that too?

First of all, sorry for starting a new thread, I don't know why I missed the HARDCORE mode one...

Quote from deggis :

According to this, Scawen might be working on it right now: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=159720#post159720

I know that the gearbox simulation for each car is being improved... I meant that the server should be able to force the use of a H shifter controller on H shifter cars... At the moment you can use sequential shifter controllers for cars that use a H shifter in the simulator (in fact, every car uses a H shifter/synchromesh box right now...).

Quote from deggis :

I don't understand what's the point of some kind of hardcore mode, LFS is a friggin' sim and we don't need separate semi-hardcore and true-hardcore modes. I suggested a month ago or so removing auto blip/cut completely from cars that would never have those in real life (thread here), but majority of people disagreed with me. Kinda funny that we pretend to play a true simulation and still everyone wants to use driving aids... don't get me totally wrong, of course it's pretty hard to use manual clutch without a third pedal, that's why I'm not saying manual clutch should be forced. But everyone can do blipping and cutting manually with a regular 2-pedal setup so it definately doesn't make things unfair.

I'd really like to see a hardcore sim too! I thought that nK PRO would be a no compromise sim, but even there an auto lift/blip option exists

I would like server options to force these things, though maybe it could be made so that they can only be used on a passworded, private or LAN server. That way you could have organised "hardcore" races in cups and leagues, but at the same time keep the public racing hassle free as you would not need to worry about not being able to use the aids or viewports you prefer on a random public server you pick from the server list.

Auto clutch banning seems a bit hardcore to me, and HShifter too, but the rest is ok to me.

Quote from Becky Rose :

People use the driving aids they need/want. Who are the server ops to dictate our gameplay experience? Aside from providing a combo which is advertised on the game select screen.

You've got that exactly backwards. You are dictating the experience for other player if you use driving aids. If players want the option to race against other players that are doing it the hard way, without having to compete with people that turn all the aids on (and are essentially paying a different, easier version of the game), they should have that option. If you don't want an even playing field, you can pick another server. Nobody is dictating which server you race on.

This is an extremely common feature in competitive games (not just racing games).

Quote from Eldanor :

Auto clutch banning seems a bit hardcore to me, and HShifter too, but the rest is ok to me.

It is a bit hardcore, and I'm sure very few servers would do it, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option available to the server operator.

Quote :

I don't understand what's the point of some kind of hardcore mode, LFS is a friggin' sim and we don't need separate semi-hardcore and true-hardcore modes.

The fact is, turning off some of those driving aids will slow you down. For instance, manually shifting with a clutch is likely to slow most players down. However, some players may prefer to do that, even thought it's slower, because they want 100% simulation. Those players might prefer to race against other players who are also going 100% simulation so they can have a level playing field. Those players might choose to create servers where such rules are enforced, and you are would be completely free to not click on those servers. You get want you want, they get what they want, everybody's happy.

Quote from Eric Tetz :

You've got that exactly backwards. You are dictating the experience for other player if you use driving aids. If players want the option to race against other players that are doing it the hard way, without having to compete with people that turn all the aids on (and are essentially paying a different, easier version of the game), they should have that option. If you don't want an even playing field, you can pick another server. Nobody is dictating which server you race on.

This is an extremely common feature in competitive games (not just racing games).

Well said my thoughts exactley -1 , it would also cause accidents for racers
who are used to aids, especially if it caught them by surprise.

-1 because some players that race with different controllers have adapted to using the specific aids, and switching them off is like leaving a 40 year old dad in rome without sat nav.

Quote from xWolFx :

-1 because some players that race with different controllers have adapted to using the specific aids, and switching them off is like leaving a 40 year old dad in rome without sat nav.

40 YEAR OLD, huh! cuda said like an 80 y/o ,i'd say most 40 y/o would ave np navigating around rome Oo

Quote from Eric Tetz :

The fact is, turning off some of those driving aids will slow you down. For instance, manually shifting with a clutch is likely to slow most players down. However, some players may prefer to do that, even thought it's slower, because they want 100% simulation.

On the other hand, I agree. When I'll get G25 I probably will be very pissed off because I can't practically be 100% competitive if I use manual clutch and shifter. But I meant that there's no need for separate "hardcore mode" because that is the only one we should have in the first place.

Also would be great if there were some codes in the results list. E.g. MC = Manual clutch, GB = Gear Blip... that way you could instantly see after the race that what aids other players are using. In LFS stats html page you can see whether Gear Blip, Gear Cut, Manual/auto clutch and Brake Help is on or off. And in LFS ingame in the players menu you already see what kind of controllers players are using (wheel/mouse). This feature would be probably pretty simple to implement.

Quote from xWolFx :

-1 because some players that race with different controllers have adapted to using the specific aids, and switching them off is like leaving a 40 year old dad in rome without sat nav.

Learn to play with new rules or quit playing.

Quote from CSU1 :

40 YEAR OLD, huh! cuda said like an 80 y/o ,i'd say most 40 y/o would ave np navigating around rome Oo

Nop, most people over 40 will do fine but people celebrating their 40th birthday will be pissed from when they were 39.

Quote from Eric Tetz :

The fact is, turning off some of those driving aids will slow you down. For instance, manually shifting with a clutch is likely to slow most players down. However, some players may prefer to do that, even thought it's slower, because they want 100% simulation. Those players might prefer to race against other players who are also going 100% simulation so they can have a level playing field. Those players might choose to create servers where such rules are enforced, and you are would be completely free to not click on those servers. You get want you want, they get what they want, everybody's happy.

Well said.

Quote from xWolFx :

-1 because some players that race with different controllers have adapted to using the specific aids, and switching them off is like leaving a 40 year old dad in rome without sat nav.

They dont have to switch them off, thats a point that repeatedly gets mixed up when talking about a Hardcore Mode. Forcing some Simulation type settings should be an possible -Option-, not a must for the Host.

+1 to server side forced aids... But make sure all types of controllers can join any server. I don't want to not be able to join a server because I don't have an H-shifter, or a clutch pedal.

and I'd add a forced setup setting for private servers (leagues) where LFS takes a certain setup, and locks selected settings (so they can't be changed) while turning other settings to randomized numerical values (ie, front-left spring = 12 (instead of a real value), so racers would actually need to spend their practice and qualifying session setting up the car, instead of just selecting the current world record setup, and practice offline until they are as fast.

I guess it's possible to make a server side insim to kick players that use help (I've already done that some time ago, but I was having some problems - I think it's only possible to check aids while player is joining race, but not afterwards...). If anyone is interested, I can clap something together...

- kick on joining race with helps on done
(join Hardcore test server and try leaving pits )