Yeah, I didn't like the idea of totally fixed setups, so I made it fixed with a twist...
My idea would add a new dimension to league races, I think. Although practice and qualifying sessions would need to be 30 minutes minimum.
I also would like to see either a "hardcore mode" or, preferably, server side control over most any game option. As a person who recently purchased a G25 I can tell you that it's a LOT harder to drive quickly than it is when using auto blip, auto clutch, etc. With one exception, the guys I generally play LFS with also have clutches. We would like to race with others, but only if we're on equal footing. As the host of the server I should be able to prevent people from joining if they're using aids which make the game easier or which make them faster. Also, LFS should definitely be changed so that running auto clutch, auto blip, etc are slower and more fallible. Proper clutch modeling and an imperfect auto clutch should be priorities for development, IMO.
These should all be server side options. If someone is a newbie and needs to be able to reset or jump to the pits, that's fine. But people who want a more realistic experience and leagues should be able to disable these things.
Bad idea. It should remain an option as it is now. If I'm hosting a game for three friends and two of them show up, I want to be able to race while we're waiting for the last guy. If he shows up 10 laps into a race, fine. I want him to be able to join. He won't have a shot at winning, but at least he won't have to sit there spectating until we finish. For "serious" or league races, they can still disallow mid-race join.
Many race series have data logging which allows them to monitor tire temperatures and pressures on the fly (FIA GT, for instance). So there's no reason at all for this to be removed. Also, until we all have pit chiefs and crews who can monitor these things for us, we need a good visual representation. As long as I'm doing the job of the driver, the crew chief, the engineer, etc., I need the same data that they would have.
Sorry, but many of us still want to be able to enforce a LOT more server side options, such as no auto clutch, no auto blip, and forced setups.
I think throttle clutch/blip banning should be allowed. The others aren't really fair (although a home made H gate is pretty easy to make), maybe if there was a way of seeing if H gates + manual clutch were being used for league races would be good (like W, M, Ks, Kn)
They can monitor tyre pressures and temps while the car is lapping. In some motorsports the pressures can be changed live whether from the car or from the pits, without pitting. It is not uncommon in F1 for a car to be called in to the pits by the engineer because a tyre is slowly deflating, but the driver is unaware of the problem.
Forced setups? I'm all for no throttle and brake help, but no auto clutch and throttle blip/lift and FORCED SETUPS? What is this, a joke? So button clutches are supposed to be than better auoclutch + throttle blip/lift?
When was the last time LFS was dominated by G25 owners and users? I'm all for no assist if over 90% of the LFS population owns and uses G25s, but at the moment such silly bans are just absurd.
Forced setups do not induce parity, contrary to popular belief. All they do is unfairly favour those whose driving styles are more suited to the particular forced setup. It also does a great job of punishing those who bother to learn how to make excellent setups. Or would we be forced to use absurdly bad setups that cause more crashes than promote good racing? More misery than fun?
Before anyone suggests such silly bans, please give it a hard thought. How's ostracizing the majority of the LFS population going to do us any good? Beats me.
Options for no-assist predate the G25 by a good 3-4 years already. Forced setup options are also not a new idea or request, nor would there ever be a ban. Even though I agree that forced setups are not universally adoptable due to hardware differences alone (let alone driving styles) it wouldn't effect me at all if some servers were set up that way. I'd simply race somewhere else. In most cases forced sets are proposed for league races in which case you as a driver would choose which type of league you joined, you wouldn't be forced or banned from anything.
I was just wishing that there would be more thought and consideration before anyone forcing something. And button clutch is even more unrealistic than auto clutch+autoblip/lift whilst providing faster acceleration, especially with the current turbo cars.
And you do have a good point of simply skipping races that unfairly penalize you because of control hardware issues (such a lack of G25), but as it is, there aren't that many good servers to choose from where I am now. Last thing I want is an exclusive club/caste/class based or any other thing like that to reduce server choices. As if there aren't enough arbitrary and logically unexplainable forms of segregation in RL society already.
A rule for some major league is one thing, but to have LFS players show up online for some racing fun only to dicover the best performing servers punishing anyone who lacks a G25 or something of similiar or better quality is just plain wrong.
Just trying to be fair to every LFS online racer looking for a good race, no matter you're a kb, mouse, joytstick or G25 user.
Jamexing, things like Fixed Setups could be an --> Option <--, for the Host.
Several Racing Simulations do have that OPTION, it is nothing new.
The Host or league should be able to organize a Race how they want it. If they want to host a LFS Race without Driving Aids on for the purpose of beeing a Simulation type Race, why shouldnt they be allowed to do so?
This is a Simulation afterall. Why shouldnt it be possible to Host a Multiplayer Race in Simulation Mode without driving aids?
Nobody says you shouldnt be able to host a Race with driving aids allowed.
So why shouldnt it be allowed the other way too?
Some Possible Options for the Hardcore Mode
* Cockpit view only
* No clutch help
* No throttle/blip help
* no resetting of the car
* Clutch has to be an Axis
* H-Shifter required (if the car is supposed to be driven that way)
The thing is, not everybody enjoys Live For Speed in the same way. Not everybody enjoys public pick up races or even public server culture for that matter. It's a testament to the great physics of this sim that it can appeal so widely, but with that comes the appeal to people who want to race very competitively in a managed race environment.
A managed online racing environment would usually include some restrictions or defined limits as in real life. In real life there are many reasons for such restrictions, some are about safety, some are about cost, and others about equality in that they produce close and fair racing.
Server-side options to limit or allow various hardware or software features would be beneficial to providing many different configurations of racing environment not only to league organisers, but to the mainstream community as well. Personally I think this would add depth to the sim and make LFS even more appealing as the prefered software to use for online racing. I also think that managed servers would attract a good number of racers regularly and be consistently active.
Catering to the fun side side of LFS is all well and good, it's the most social online game I've ever seen and many friendships have been born online in LFS, but there's also the serious racing side of things that continues to be refined in this sim. To overlook the potential in server-side options as a means to provide managed online racing enviroments would be a big pity in my opinion.
To use a current example: it would be a pity if racers with 3 pedals and a clutch could never race each other in a contest of skill in LFS, because this is very different than using more automatic or "aided" options. People who do use this hardware would enjoy such a contest and it would be pretty tough racing with even less room for error than what we are used to. Should they have no means of achieving this just because not everyone could join? That would seem a bit unfair and makes the inclusion of such devices in LFS almost completely redundant. A step backwards, not forwards.
I have little doubt that Scawen will even up the shifting time between various methods and evolve the clutch features of LFS, such ammendments would certainly make the use of these devices more accessable in realtion to our current online racing culture. But to rule out forced options would keep managed racing environments (something which is lacking in sim racing and online gaming in general) out of reach to the broader community.
Forced setups are just one more way of evening out the playing field - much like ballast. This is especially true for people like me who don't have time to spend testing, adjusting, and retesting setups for each particular race. I don't want to play pit chief, I just want to race. If there were a server with forced setups available (or if I were able to start my own) I would MUCH prefer to race on it than a server which allows setup changes. Forcing setups would allow for "showroom stock" type racing and would guarantee that you're not getting beat by someone else simply because they spend every day after school perfecting their setup.
For some people, working towards and achieving that perfect setup is part of the fun. For me it is not. I just want to get in and drive without worrying that I'm uncompetitive because I didn't spend hours getting my sway bar and camber settings perfect.
One thing that escapes me is why the guy who actually bothers to put in the effort to setup his car well be penalized while the guys who can't be bothered to setup his car properly be favoured? Beats me. Point is, it's not as fair as it might be cracked up to be. Races should favour those who put in effort to setup and drive well. I just believe that it's more fair overall. Forced setups is fine as long as they are confined to private leagues, but beyond that is simply draconian and basically unfair.
As for forced cockpit mode, it's about time that becomes compulsory in online races. We can't drive from a view OUTSIDE of our cars IRL, can we?
Please try to put yourself in the shoes of those of us who want this option instead of simply dismissing it because it's not what YOU want. You say "Races should favour those who put in effort to setup and drive well". I would say it's the other way around. Races should not favor those who have no job, no family commitments, etc which enables them to spend hours upon hours working on their setup and perfecting it. I don't have the time to do that and, frankly, even if I did I don't want to. I want to get in and drive. I want to play a racing sim. I do not want to play an engineering sim. And, that is my perogative. You say that it's unfair to make someone drive an unchangeable setup and to penalize those who have the time and knowledge to setup their car properly. I say it's unfair to expect everyone to have that sort of time and knowledge. I would rather race in a series where all the cars are the same and the only thing that can best me is another driver - not a superior setup. Not to mention the fact that having forced setups would be great for those who are new to racing or new to LFS. How discouraging is it for a newbie to get online and race only to find out that they have no chance of keeping up, not because their driving is poor but because their gearing is not right or their ARB is too soft. Forced setups allow for evening the playing field between those with setup knowledge (and the time to implement it) and those without. We all want close racing (that was the #1 selection in the recent poll done in the main forum) and forced setups is just one more OPTION that server admins should have to help in that regard.
Well it's not like FORCED SETUP - NO FORCED SETUPS, FORCED COCKPIT VIEW or NO FORCED COCKPIT VIEW, giving this Option free to the Server will put different kind of Races online which is something very good.
Cue-Ball could join a Server were theres a Forced Setup, and Jamexing is on a Server were he can choose his own Setup.
NASCAR RACING 2003 shows that it is possible and appreciated to have such things as Hardcore Mode, Cockpit View only, or Forced Setup Options. If you go into a NASCAR RACING Chatroom and suggest to close this Options it would look ridiculous cause it adds something good to the game.
I happen to have a busy life and I still make my own setups. So you're saying that guys who bother to work on their own setups are all a bunch of workless no life junkies?
That would offend a LOT of guys in the LFS community who happen to make their own quality setups and STILL have productive lives. BTW, there are already all sorts of good setups awaiting download all over the LFS community, so you don't need to spend more than a couple of laps around your chosen track to get something that compliments your driving skills. And no, you don't need to quit school or work to spend half an hour on your car in your favourite sim to tweak a setup in your free time.
When was the last time any RL race driver achieved major success with NO understanding of automotive engineering and the effects of car setup? Isn't a racing sim supposed to simulate what RL racers do to get their machines tweaked? A driver cannot excel IRL racing by driving alone.
The truth is setup skills are also a part of one's driving skills. For those uninformed, you are all welcome to ask valid questions on car setup. If you'r just too busy, there's always the download option. So no, you shouldn't be painfully slow just because you're a newbie with no setup of your own.
Forced setups are perfectly fine to me as long as they're confined to special leagues where all are supposed to drove supposedly identical stock cars. Just don't get in onto more public servers.
BTW, most other sims I've driven don't have terrible setups to start with. As it is, the current LFS default setups are mostly horrid. So NASCAR is NASCAR and can't be compared directly to LFS.
Besides in a top level league where the best LFS players get to compete with each other, shouldn't they be allowed to show their top form with their own custom setup cars? Let's pit the best against each other and see how good they can REALLY get. Now that's racing.
And yes, cockpit mode should have been forced a long time ago for all online or multiplayer races. It's about time everyone drives in LFS as a sim.
You'd be surprised how many top formula class drivers have NO clue what to do to a car to make it handle better... The best they can do is say what the car is doing for each turn (it's understeering in slow corners, that fast left hander is difficult with the oversteer as it is now)... The engineer then changes the setup options to change the car's behaviour. When's the last time you've seen a F1 driver take a wrench to the front left damper to change the rebound setting? You ask all the formula 1 drivers today what changing the front left damper rebound setting does, and 90% will have to say "I dunno". They need to be really good at telling the team what a car is doing at any given point on the track, not what settings to change. Sure, they know the basics of car setups... Mostly the settings they can change from inside the car, but for most that's it.
Nobody said the forced setups would need to be default setups... Just as you can send the setups to other racers, so could the server send the fixed setup as you join the server.
I'm sorry? Their own custom car setups? Tell me how realistic the car setups, and more so the way they were created, are in LFS right now?
Did you know that a car setup for Barcelona in June is radically different from the setup in December? What you do in a car on a track is start with a basic set, and change that for the current situation. They have only a couple of hours to build their set, not hours and hours for months.
At the very least, if you want to be realistic, you should force them to start with some sort of default setup, and have them tweak it over the course of practice and qualify. That would show their top form. Unfortunately, we don't have engineers to help out, so even that would not be realistic.
Sorry, but don't you think that's a bit ego-centric? Say no to forced setups because you don't like it, but say yes to force something that makes some users unable to play the game at all. We're still talking about an option, but you're going past the option, and force it on everybody.
That's not what I said at all. Please do not put words in my mouth. If other people CHOOSE to spend their time making setups, more power to them. Me, personally? I'd rather spend that time doing something else. Perhaps racing?
Yes. So please provide me with a salary and full time pit crew and I'll be more than happy to work on setups. Until you can, some of us would rather not deal with setups at all.
BS. Driving is the job of the driver. Setting up the car is the job of the engineers. You know, there are races out there where all the cars are exactly the same with no setup changes allowed (celebrity races are a great example of this. So are F1 vs Rally vs Indy "shootout" races). But I suppose the winners of these races must be totally random since drivers can't excel by driving alone. :rolleyes:
Even this requires visiting one of the sites that host setups, downloading it manually, then putting it into the right place in the LFS directory tree. A hassle at best. You CAN get setups from people in-game, but if you're doing a league race nobody is going to give you their setup because they don't want to give their opponent an advantage. And even if you DO get a setup from someone, then you're using a setup that was tailored for them. Isn't this the same thing you were just bitching about a few posts back? So, if I make a setup and send it to you that's fine, but if I make a setup and the server sends it to you when you connect that's NOT okay? I fail to see your logic here.
Quite frankly, you have no right to tell me what I can and can't do with a server, should I choose to run one. I feel that public servers are the place where forced setups would do the most good. People who drive in leagues generally run long races, have the time to work on setups, and really need to tailor the car to their driving style. Having a perfect setup is much less important for an 8 lap race around South City. And those short pick-up races are far and away the majority of races in LFS and, therefore, the ones that need this option the most. Nobody is forcing you to play on a server with forced setups so you can feel free to play what you like.
What is so horrid about the default LFS setups? They're not the fastest setups around (which just proves my point even further, since anyone not running a tweaked setup is going to get dusted) but they're very driveable and good for beginners. I have no idea what NASCAR has to do with this discussion at all.
Again, I would say you're looking at this the complete opposite of how others like myself are seeing it. In a top level league you have the time to commit to making setups and you need every last tenth of a second you can get. It is in these leagues that setup is most important. When you have drivers of varying skill or drivers who want to compete on driving alone, and not on the quality of their setup, that's when forced setups would be a welcome addition.
WOW! Can you say completely blown out of proportion?
Forced setup is nothing like forcing cockpit view, which I am completely against as it offers no benefits or eliminates no advantage (it's been argued already, please don't start again). Forced setup offers no benefits other than the interesting and fun factor of everyone having the same setup. Forced setups do not alienate anyone as you can have some fun with FS or drive your best in another server using your tailored set. I'm thinking, forced setups would get old quite quickly after a while as some folks like cars tight and some like it very loose while others like me like it mildly loose. Forced to a setup that you dislike it's style of driving, I'm thinking not many will continue after the novelty of it wears off.
I'm not going to tell anyone how, but I think I have thought of a way around banning auto clutch. No hacking, no exe modding, memory hacks etc. ... simpler than that.
Why would you want to ban manual clutch? I can see why you'd want to do away with auto-clutch (that's what I'd like to do), but why get rid of manual clutch?
edit: or do you mean a way to get around a server that does ban manual clutch?
