I edited it - it's a way of using basically an autoclutch system without autoclutch.
And I will not tell anyone under any form of torture. It is extremely elementary, that is all I am saying.
I edited it - it's a way of using basically an autoclutch system without autoclutch.
And I will not tell anyone under any form of torture. It is extremely elementary, that is all I am saying.
that you assign the clutch to the gear change thingy at the same time - or that you make a Macro in the profiler, both easy to make and hard to detect
I'm sure that what you're talking about could easily be done with the scripting system, or with button mapping. I would hope that people would not feel the need to cheat the system and that any cheat or "workaround" would be able to be dealt with by server admins.
Is the auto-clutch system really that important to add as an option?
I thought this was more about the more controversial settings of automatically blipping and lifting the throttle on shifts, and for the die-hard simulator fans to have the option of fixed (randomized) setups and cockpit view.
If it's about using a clutch button versus a clutch pedal, the clutch button could be made slower than instant.
(I don't like options that would potentially ban me from joining servers because I don't have the necessary exotic hardware. Cockpit view is so bleedingly obviously a must have force option (mind you: OPTION!) that I wouldn't mind that, most people not able to run cockpit view now are probably going to be out of luck for S3 anywayz)
I thought this was more about the more controversial settings of automatically blipping and lifting the throttle on shifts, and for the die-hard simulator fans to have the option of fixed (randomized) setups and cockpit view.
If it's about using a clutch button versus a clutch pedal, the clutch button could be made slower than instant.
(I don't like options that would potentially ban me from joining servers because I don't have the necessary exotic hardware. Cockpit view is so bleedingly obviously a must have force option (mind you: OPTION!) that I wouldn't mind that, most people not able to run cockpit view now are probably going to be out of luck for S3 anywayz)
I personally feel that the ability to disable auto-clutch is extremely important. Possibly not as important as automatic shift or auto-blip, but very important none the less. Auto-clutch is a driving aid, just like braking help or auto-lift. With auto-clutch enabled it's virtually impossible to have a mis-shift, slow shift, missed gear, etc. There's a reason that the very high-end racing series have now adopted sequential, clutchless transmissions (they have a clutch, of course. but the driver is not required to do the clutching).
Auto-clutch shouldn't matter for the GTR cars since they realistiacally would use sequential boxes, but for the slower cars like the TBO class, the ability to disable auto cluching is extremely important.
Good points... Hadn't thought of misshifts. Alright then... Autoclutch forced off
Try driving the G25 with all aids off for 50 laps or so. Trust me, you'll give a LOT of thought to mis-shifts.
I will, as soon as Logitech says it's ok for me to have one... Damnit... Another week or so. :scared::worried:
Again, I stress that forced setup for private races and leagues. Just leave it out of purely public servers. Besides, if the forced setup is a fundamentally good one, it's fine eith me if I happen to find time to join such a short league. But as someone here already said, it's a novelty that could quickly wear off, especilaly those who find the setups particularly unsuited to them.
I apologize if my previous post was a bit on the strong side. I'm just unhappy with someone IMPLYING (but not quite explicitly saying) that people who bother to come up with good personal setups are mostly if not all a bunch of no life junkies. The truth is, those with some basic undrstanding of automotive engineering can quickly come up with a good setups in half an hour, including some limited testing. And if forced setups are actually used, people should be allowed to choose from a LIMITED choice of setups instead of one that favours some and disadvantages others. This would help level the playing field. All you need is a good understanding of your driving and make the best choice.
On the subject of top drivers with NO understanding of automotive engineering and basic physics of car setups, well, think again. Some "top" drivers simply know almost nothing but simply just try to drive to the setup no matter how non-optimal it is.
Then there are CHAMPIONS. People like Micheal Schumacher and Aryton Senna. Aryton Senna was well known as one who was absoultely obsessed with telemetry and engineering of the F-1 cars he drove. He would constantly bug the engineers in his team, asking incessant questions to extract every bit of knowledge and understanding he could. He would spend hours reading his own telemetry, trying to detect and correct every nuance of setup and driving. In essence, he was obsessed with anything that would improve his understanding of F-1 cars and ultimately improve his setup and ultimately driving skills. No wonder he's THE legend.
Micheal Scumacher isn't just a driver, he's a great MANAGER as well. Getting rid of the useless and receiving and mantaining quality staff is essential to thrive in F-1.
Another well know Indycar top driver is Sebastian Bourdois (I think that's the spelling, but I'm no European) He is well known to be very studious. Give him a car and he'll tell our setup engineer what to do in just a couple of laps to optimise the setup.
Overspecializaton leads to growing weakness and slow death. As technology advances, multi-disciplinary approaches are increasingly important in many fields. Last but not least, RL racing is not a driver gets all the glory glamour fest. It's a TEAM sport, and it doesn't really matter what the media says. The truth of every race success is terribly obvious to those in the know, even if it's only in a limited way.
BTW, when I do get something like the G25 someday, don't bother with banning driver aids. I won't use them at all, as I always try to drive LFS as realistically as my hardware can practically allow me to. Sequentials should be driven as sequentials and vice-versa. And the reason I completely agree with forcing cockpit mode is that that's how we drive IRL, in the driver's seat. When was the last time someone raced in bumper/chase cam IRL? A sim is suppeosed to approximate RL as closely as possible. It's not about eliminating some silly unfair advantages. It's about keeping it as realistic as practically possible. Isn't that the whole point of a hardcore mode?
No, we don't have a need for speed. We LIVE FOR SPEED!
I apologize if my previous post was a bit on the strong side. I'm just unhappy with someone IMPLYING (but not quite explicitly saying) that people who bother to come up with good personal setups are mostly if not all a bunch of no life junkies. The truth is, those with some basic undrstanding of automotive engineering can quickly come up with a good setups in half an hour, including some limited testing. And if forced setups are actually used, people should be allowed to choose from a LIMITED choice of setups instead of one that favours some and disadvantages others. This would help level the playing field. All you need is a good understanding of your driving and make the best choice.
On the subject of top drivers with NO understanding of automotive engineering and basic physics of car setups, well, think again. Some "top" drivers simply know almost nothing but simply just try to drive to the setup no matter how non-optimal it is.
Then there are CHAMPIONS. People like Micheal Schumacher and Aryton Senna. Aryton Senna was well known as one who was absoultely obsessed with telemetry and engineering of the F-1 cars he drove. He would constantly bug the engineers in his team, asking incessant questions to extract every bit of knowledge and understanding he could. He would spend hours reading his own telemetry, trying to detect and correct every nuance of setup and driving. In essence, he was obsessed with anything that would improve his understanding of F-1 cars and ultimately improve his setup and ultimately driving skills. No wonder he's THE legend.
Micheal Scumacher isn't just a driver, he's a great MANAGER as well. Getting rid of the useless and receiving and mantaining quality staff is essential to thrive in F-1.
Another well know Indycar top driver is Sebastian Bourdois (I think that's the spelling, but I'm no European
) He is well known to be very studious. Give him a car and he'll tell our setup engineer what to do in just a couple of laps to optimise the setup. Overspecializaton leads to growing weakness and slow death. As technology advances, multi-disciplinary approaches are increasingly important in many fields. Last but not least, RL racing is not a driver gets all the glory glamour fest. It's a TEAM sport, and it doesn't really matter what the media says. The truth of every race success is terribly obvious to those in the know, even if it's only in a limited way.
BTW, when I do get something like the G25 someday, don't bother with banning driver aids. I won't use them at all, as I always try to drive LFS as realistically as my hardware can practically allow me to. Sequentials should be driven as sequentials and vice-versa. And the reason I completely agree with forcing cockpit mode is that that's how we drive IRL, in the driver's seat. When was the last time someone raced in bumper/chase cam IRL? A sim is suppeosed to approximate RL as closely as possible. It's not about eliminating some silly unfair advantages. It's about keeping it as realistic as practically possible. Isn't that the whole point of a hardcore mode?
No, we don't have a need for speed. We LIVE FOR SPEED!
This idea here, IMO, is better than a completely forced single set. Neutral setups stink. There are folks who like an understeering set and can not drive with any oversteer. Then there are those who can drive with oversteer (and usually unrealistic oversteer, IMO) and could not drive with understeer or neutral handling. By having a selection of three sets, under, oversteer, and nuetral, you would end up evening up the sets while still allowing for some slight driving style choice. It doesn't even up the field when some of the players spend more time facing backwards because of a looser set or other players spend more time in the sand because it was too tight.
Or another way of going about it, which is what I would think it would be like, is to have one forced base set and allow slight changes to ARB's and some other suspension settings. Note I said slight. That way you could tighten or loosen it up just a little to suit the way you drive. This is what I imagine would happen with forced setup racing. Gear ratios, steering, downforce, diff settings, and the majority of suspension would all be forced at a specific setting.
To you it might be a novelty that wears off. To me (and others) it's a way to race each week without having to spend half of my driving time working on a setup. There are times when I would want to have normal, setup allowed racing. But on the days when I don't have much time to race I'd rather not spend a good portion of my time performing car setup. Imagine that you, me, and three other guys go to the local track, rent a bunch of Porsches, and battle it out for 10 laps. THAT is the kind of experience I would like to replicate and to do so requires forced setups.
I'm not implying that at all. I'm saying that *I* would rather spend my time doing something else. I have friends who are computer programmers. They like to spend their free time writing code and debugging. Not my idea of a good time, but more power to them. Car setup is the same thing. If I have two hours a week to play LFS I want to spend them driving, not working on car setup. Being able to force setups from the server immediately puts everyone on a level playing field so that the people like me who don't want to spend the time or just don't have the knowledge (I do. maybe i'm just lazy) can still be competitive and have fun. If YOU want to run on a server without forced setups, there's nothing to stop you. My friends and I would like the choice to run all the cars completely even.
Once again, as long as racing is a hobby none of this really matters an ounce. Real drivers have pit crews, engineers, tire manufacturer reps, etc to handle this stuff. Michael Schumacher says "the rear is loose" and the engineers do all the work. He's not under the car adjusting the spring rate and damper settings. In LFS we have to do everything ourselves. I WANT TO DRIVE! I do not want to wear a dozen different hats and do all the stuff that a real life pit crew does. If you choose to do that, so be it. *I* do not want to and I know that others feel the same way. It's simply not worth my time to muck with setups for a 7 lap pick-up race when half the field will crash out by the 3rd lap anyway. I just want to get in and drive against an even field. Why is that so hard to understand?
I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand, but you're wrong. While it may be a team sport the driver DOES get all the glory. I wonder if you can tell me the name of the tire technician for the Ferrari F1 team? Last year Russell Ingall won the Aussie V8 Supercar championship. What was his pit chief's name? Now, do you still think the driver doesn't get all the glory? In any case, this isn't real life racing. This is simulated racing. In this sport the driver definitely gets all the glory (is there any?) because there is nobody else!
edit: If LFS were the least bit realistic about car setups it would go a long way towards equalizing things without forced setups. However; it's still something that I would like to see implemented.
Kees van der Grint
Google cheater!
Actually Schumi is not a good example, he indeed does get involved in the engineering and makes suggestions based on that knowledge. It's one of the reasons why teams desire his service so fervently and one reason why he stands out as a very hard-working and dedicated driver. But indeed some drivers are not like this and would give more generic feedback to their crews.
Thanks for injecting a dose of racing reality. Goes to show why Micheal Schumacher is always a step in front of most (if not all) other drivers.
True, team engineers and mechanics don't do it for the glory. They do it because it's a job they like to do passionatley. They're NOT glory hoggers like some american race drivers I'll rather not mention. End of the day, it takes an experienced, knowledgable and understanding drivers such as Micheal Schumacher or Alain Prost to truely appreciate the importance of his team. It's just sad that the sensationalist media never shows things as they really are. Don't let that blind us from the truth, however. As I already mentioned earlier, those of us in the know know MUCH better than whatever the mass media tries to spoon feed us.
As for forced setups, I've already mentioned that there should at least be a few choices or some limited adjustments (such antiroll bars, tire pressures, etc) while the basic spring, steering and gearing remain fixed.
And please, no offense Cue-Ball, but absolutely identical singular setups DO NOT level the field. Please stop trying to bang our heads with this myth. As some of us already understand and mention (not just me), different drivers with different driving styles need different setups to do well. In the end, it all comes down to who's most suited to the single forced setup, not who's really the best. That's why it isn't really fair. Fixed springs, steering, gearing and other harder to adjust IRL settings are all that's needed. Drivers should at least be allowed to make a choice of which nature of setup to choose or at least some limited tweaking of the car. It's to make sure things are as fair as possible for all.
Gunn,
The G25 is a limited edition model, they are not planing to make a ton of them and not that many people have $300 lying around to by them. If they did ACT Labs setups would never have been cancled, only to slowly be reborn. The point is that the majority of us will not ever have a clutch or an H-Shifter. The ablity to use auto clutch or a sequential shifter should not be limited because this is a physical limitation. The other aids I see no problems limiting there use, as they are all skill based aids.
There are laws in many countries that prevent discrimination based on physical ability, but they don't for skill differences. I see this as no different. I have seen how this way of thinking can run a sim, Simbin's GTR2k2 mod was a good example. The only server I could ever find with other people were hardcore, no aids, and you know what they were almost always empty and full of elitest asshats. Going this route before the majoprity of the comunity has the physical means to access servers that are locked down with no allowed aids will fracture this comunity and will do it a great disservice.
Thanks for injecting a bit of rationality and common sense to this thread. I'm glad that someone starts recognizing how turning LFS servers into G25 exclusive sites when the current hardware simply can't achieve it for the masses at more reasonable prices would only lead to a fractured community.
Limited just means they won't keep producing it. They'll make plenty of them, and when that's done they won't make more. It's not that they'll be gone if you don't get one first week.
I agree on the sequential/H shifter issue. This is pure hardware. Auto clutch less so, because you can map a single button to the clutch. Although I see where you're coming from, I've changed my mind on the autoclutch option, and now think it is a setting that should be forcable. If LFS would never miss a gear I would have no problems with auto-clutch enabled all the time, but since using auto-clutch automatically disables an in-game problem (mis shifts) I see it now as a driving aid (rather than a hardware aid) and as such should be forcable.
I don't think it will come to that. If Redline Racing servers notice all their people running away since they forced aids off, they'll turn them back on. And for every server that will have aids turned off, there'll be 4 that don't.
I stand by my opinion, driving aids should be forced, as long as it doesn't make it impossible to join a server based on what hardware you have.
Driving aids should be forced. Discrimination is a natural human tendancy, and I don't believe that there is anything bad about it. If I don't think a gay, one armed muslim nearing retirement age is good for my business then I'll quite happily tell him where to get off. If I don't want people using driving aids on my server (if/when I choose to run one, which I don't currently but used to) then I want to be able to make sure that auto-clutching, throttle blipping people are kept off.
Simple.
I think Forced setups would be a good idea, and if that setup was chosen well could indeed make racing slower and even the field. Obviously if you just give everyone a crazy WR setup and expect close racing you'll be disappointed, but it is possible in most cars to create a slightly slower yet very adaptable setup. If we're all using the same setup it doesn't matter if it's the ultimate. James, you try to make the analogy that the best F1 drivers are partial engineers - I agree. But the analogy is flawed in the context of LFS, because all our cars are identical, thus the ONLY physical differences are setups. Wouldn't it be slightly fun to ensure that no one has an advatage over anyone else (as such), and see who can get the most out of a known car/track/setup combo? Not all the time, but so many people here seem to forget that we don't want this or Hardcore Mode enforced all, or even most, of the time. Forced setups +1, Driving Aids Forced (inc. Auto-Clutch) +1
Simple.
I think Forced setups would be a good idea, and if that setup was chosen well could indeed make racing slower and even the field. Obviously if you just give everyone a crazy WR setup and expect close racing you'll be disappointed, but it is possible in most cars to create a slightly slower yet very adaptable setup. If we're all using the same setup it doesn't matter if it's the ultimate. James, you try to make the analogy that the best F1 drivers are partial engineers - I agree. But the analogy is flawed in the context of LFS, because all our cars are identical, thus the ONLY physical differences are setups. Wouldn't it be slightly fun to ensure that no one has an advatage over anyone else (as such), and see who can get the most out of a known car/track/setup combo? Not all the time, but so many people here seem to forget that we don't want this or Hardcore Mode enforced all, or even most, of the time. Forced setups +1, Driving Aids Forced (inc. Auto-Clutch) +1
If one has invested in a multiturn wheel, 3 pedal set and H-shifter, one shouldn't be in an inferior position to other using lesser setup like the situation is currently.
There fore I support these options and everything that makes 'the manual/harder way' faster.
I can't image how having hardcore (forced cockpit view, no aids, 3 pedals, multiturn wheel, h-shifter) etc could do much harm to LFS, hell you could even possibly get Logitech and/or BRD sponsor LFS if it would have such servers.
There's already games out there that I can't play at all because they use features only provided by newer GPUs and need more oomph than my PC has. How's that different than having couple server one can't play on because they require certain devices? If one is truly serious about simming then they buy the devices needed.
There fore I support these options and everything that makes 'the manual/harder way' faster.
I can't image how having hardcore (forced cockpit view, no aids, 3 pedals, multiturn wheel, h-shifter) etc could do much harm to LFS, hell you could even possibly get Logitech and/or BRD sponsor LFS if it would have such servers.
There's already games out there that I can't play at all because they use features only provided by newer GPUs and need more oomph than my PC has. How's that different than having couple server one can't play on because they require certain devices? If one is truly serious about simming then they buy the devices needed.
The only suggestions that I have made have been to add features to LFS. You seem to be insinuating that I want something taken away, which is just absurd. It's like you are saying "I don't have a shifter so nobody else can have one either".
Talk about discrimination. You wrapped it so nicely in a sheet of hypocrisy too, that was sweet of you.
I would like to mention how Fixed Setups are used in other Sims in this discussion.
I hate to take the comparison to NASCAR Racing again, but it is good to take a look at how other Sims have adapted Options and how they affected the Online Racing.
In NASCAR Racing 2003 theres also the Option of Forcing the Setup.
Few Servers run this Option, I dont bother to look now but I guess about 15% of Servers run Fixed Setups.
The challenge in Oval Racing is that most of the time, a loose (oversteering) setup is fast on an Oval - but difficult to drive.
People who cant keep up with the Leaders Pace in an Oval sometimes choose to take a hard to drive (oversteering) setup in order to be able to keep up with the Front.
Now some Europeans who dont know much about Oval Racing or are simply ignorant towards this kind of Motorsport wouldnt believe, but sometimes even the skilled and experienced drivers spin and loose the car all by themselfes in an Oval as they try to push hard, because they took a loose setup.
What Forced Setups in NASCAR Racing 2003 by Papyrus means most of the time, is that the Server chooses to take a stable, if not slightly understeering Setup for his Server.
That leads to close Racing and can be alot of fun.
Some leagues would surely also like to have a Forced Setup Option, as some cars wouldnt be that much modifyable in real life, and if all drive with the same Setups it can produce great Racing.
I hate to take the comparison to NASCAR Racing again, but it is good to take a look at how other Sims have adapted Options and how they affected the Online Racing.
In NASCAR Racing 2003 theres also the Option of Forcing the Setup.
Few Servers run this Option, I dont bother to look now but I guess about 15% of Servers run Fixed Setups.
The challenge in Oval Racing is that most of the time, a loose (oversteering) setup is fast on an Oval - but difficult to drive.
People who cant keep up with the Leaders Pace in an Oval sometimes choose to take a hard to drive (oversteering) setup in order to be able to keep up with the Front.
Now some Europeans who dont know much about Oval Racing or are simply ignorant towards this kind of Motorsport wouldnt believe, but sometimes even the skilled and experienced drivers spin and loose the car all by themselfes in an Oval as they try to push hard, because they took a loose setup.
What Forced Setups in NASCAR Racing 2003 by Papyrus means most of the time, is that the Server chooses to take a stable, if not slightly understeering Setup for his Server.
That leads to close Racing and can be alot of fun.
Some leagues would surely also like to have a Forced Setup Option, as some cars wouldnt be that much modifyable in real life, and if all drive with the same Setups it can produce great Racing.
Yeah, maybe there would be an option I could keep all the G25 owners away of my server, in the future. G25 is a lot better than my DFP, so all the G25 owners have an advantage over me..
The main issue is that currently the "driving aids" should not make you faster or let you do anything faster. The way some of the "driving aids" are implimented now, makes using them an advantage. If that advantage was tempered out then it would not matter if they were used and allowed or not. Thats the change that needed to happen. I used to be one of the people calling for more options to restrict server access, I have since changed my mind as that is not the solution to the issue at hand.
I feel public servers should remain open and freely accessable to the entire comunity, private servers and leagues shoudl be able to do what ever they want, so if these optional restrictions are put in place then implimenting them should automaticly require a servers to be passworded. I do not think it would be amy more diffacult on the server opperators to do this. Hell you could even all used the same password like the CRC. But like the CRC I don't think this option will have much use or need.
I feel public servers should remain open and freely accessable to the entire comunity, private servers and leagues shoudl be able to do what ever they want, so if these optional restrictions are put in place then implimenting them should automaticly require a servers to be passworded. I do not think it would be amy more diffacult on the server opperators to do this. Hell you could even all used the same password like the CRC. But like the CRC I don't think this option will have much use or need.
This is part of the problem. If LFS were changed so that driving aids were not faster than doing it yourself, it would help even things out. But, even then, if I want to host a server with only no-aids drivers that should be my perogative.
There is no such thing as a public server in LFS. All servers are privately owned and run by either a person or a group (usually a league or race team). So, by your own logic, servers should be able to do whatever they want.
Server should be able to force aids off...
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