IMO forced setups should be added. But there should be no force H shift or force axis clutch. I cannot afford a G25 and don't have the space for any wheel - why should I be treated as a second class citizern?
Nobody is forcing you to use those options or forcing you to join a server with those options enabled. Clutch pedals and H-shifters are becoming more and more common and are the way of the future. Keep up or be left behind.
Why should I be forced to race against someone who gets to have the computer do all the work of clutching and shifting?
I had some visitors today on my server (no driving aids allowed). It's surprising, how many people use helps. And when they disabled it, they weren't even able to change gears 
(and clutch isn't even well simulated 
).
(and clutch isn't even well simulated ).I use keyboard, yet I never use brake and trottle help no matter what I drive, from UF1 to BF1. I prefer to apply my RL acquired throttle and brake modulation skills whenever practically possible in LFS. The reasons I use autoclutch and blip for now are because LFS has NO proper simulation of a clutch yet and also due to the fact that I don't have a G25 quality steering set yet. Besides, autoclutch and autoblip/lift, though flawed, is still more realistic and fair overall especially for the current TBO cars with silly levels of turbo lag. As much as I'll like to clutch cars such as the TBOs manually, it's currently pointless not only due to lack of a 3 pedal set, but also because the current button clutch is simple absurd. I've tried driving with the manulaly actuated button clutch but simply couldn't stand it's unrealistic action. As well as I could dirve with a keyboard even with all the fancy fingerwork required to clutch->lift->shift->release clutch, it's not the sort of finger torture that anyone here would want to do for more than half an hour.
As you also agree, the current clutch simualtion simply isn't that good. Personally, I strive to play LFS with as much realism as I practically could, and if I had a G25, I won't use any aids at all, simply beacuse I don't need them and would actually end up slower with them. But even so, we have to be more considerate to those that are faced with real hardware issues. As it is, the current LFS community simply isn't big enough.
If there's anyone who emphasizes realism, that's me, but practical issues must be tended to. We can't just act like a bunch of elitist asshats that shun any noob that shows up with all driving aids on as he's still learning the basics. That is a surefire way to divide and eventually shrink our already quite small community. Positive encouragement generally works much better than intimidaiton and force, but it's somthing that seems lost to quite a few here.
I think now we're getting to the root of the reason you don't want no-aids servers.
Trying to even out the uneven TBO cars using driving aids is flawed logic at best. How you can even say that auto-clutch is more realistic than manual clutch truly boggles my mind.
Then perhaps you should buy a wheel?
This is highly doubtful. Auto-clutch is faster than axis clutch. Period. And auto-blip is easier than heel-toeing manually. Unless you are a driving god I seriously doubt that you would be faster with aids turned off. ONE mistake, ONE mis-shift, or ONE missed gear can cost you enough time to lose the race. And even if you are faster, it's a lot more work driving with them off. I shouldn't have to do more work to drive the same speed as someone else just because they don't have a clutch pedal.
No, we don't have to be more considerate. This is supposed to be a sim. If people want to play a sim as it was meant to be played, they need a wheel. If they are unwilling to get a wheel then that's their problem, not mine. The LFS community is plenty big enough to support servers with aids forced off and aids allowed. If you don't think it is big enough, feel free to host your own server with aids allowed. You're not helpless in this matter, you know.
There's a difference between being an elitist and wanting to drive a fair race against other people with the same equipment and interests. How would you like it if I got to drive with traction control and ABS but you didn't? I'm sure you would cry foul. But when YOU are the one being given the advantage it's suddenly not a problem.
NOW we're getting to the real issue. You're not some savior of the non-G25 users. You are simply worried that you'll have fewer servers to play on for yourself! This is a case of market forces at work. One of two things will happen: 1) People will start "hardcore" servers with driving aids disabled, others will like this idea and will join or 2) nobody will join the aids-disabled servers. If people DO join, as I predict, then we will know exactly which direction the sim and the market as a whole are moving. If nobody joins then we'll know that you're right and that there's not enough demand (yet) for driving aids to be disabled. Either way, the market decides for itself which direction it's going to go. If there is demand for no-aids servers they'll still be around. If there is no demand, then they won't be.
Yes, it's lost on you, apparently, since you're trying to force server admins to cater to your demands rather than allowing them to run settings which they feel suits them and their users the best.
Ok, I have a question about hardcore... aids forced off.... throttle blip on downshift forced off.... needing to heel/toe. There, I kept it on-topic by narrowing it down . Do you heel/toe using your heel on brake and toe on throttle or the other way around. I tried using my toe on the brake and had to completely rotate my chair around to hit the throttle with my heel. The other way, heel on brake, would completely mess up the braking feel.
Again, you all are talking this hardcore mode as if everything is perfect. Fact is, we have extreme hardware limitations that prevent hardcore mode. Any vehicle I have driven did not have the pedal axis mounted at the bottom and did not have the throttle pedal mounted such that it was exactly even with the brake pedal. I've seen the G25 pictures. Those pedals are no different. The only way to do hardcore mode without the aids currently would be to have a custom pedal set built to where the pedals are properly placed to allow heel/toe and proper pedal deflection. You use your leg in pressing at least the brake and clutch pedal, not deflecting your foot down at the ankle.
. Do you heel/toe using your heel on brake and toe on throttle or the other way around. I tried using my toe on the brake and had to completely rotate my chair around to hit the throttle with my heel. The other way, heel on brake, would completely mess up the braking feel.Again, you all are talking this hardcore mode as if everything is perfect. Fact is, we have extreme hardware limitations that prevent hardcore mode. Any vehicle I have driven did not have the pedal axis mounted at the bottom and did not have the throttle pedal mounted such that it was exactly even with the brake pedal. I've seen the G25 pictures. Those pedals are no different. The only way to do hardcore mode without the aids currently would be to have a custom pedal set built to where the pedals are properly placed to allow heel/toe and proper pedal deflection. You use your leg in pressing at least the brake and clutch pedal, not deflecting your foot down at the ankle.
For heel toe its normal for toe on brake and heel on the throttle. You are only aiming to blip the throttle so this does not need to be too accurate, hence the heel. You need the control with the brakes.
I think heel toe in the sim environment requires a stiff brake pedal to work properly.
I can manage it with my ActLab pro pedals as the brake and thottle are close together. I use this at times but more often than not I tend to right foot brake and when the revs are low enough to allow a down shift I will do this without any blip and use the clutch to bring the engine up to speed while I ease the brakes slightly to avoid lockups. I then ease back onto the brakes to maintain the best braking taking the engine braking into effect.
Yes we have hardware limitations but then we all do. I would say that most that want hardcore do not want to enforce clutch and H pattern.
Removal of driving aids is fine (Apart from auto clutch) because everyone is in the same boat. It means you have to control your brakes more to stop lockups and lockups have a greater effect as heat on tires etc so makes teh races far more interesting.
I think this thread is a spinoff on hardcore mode and I think that is the split that is really required, not individual settings on or off but a mode for people who want serious racing as even as possible.
I sort of agree with you here. The advantage of driving aids is not the same argument as applying hardcore options for hardware or software options for parity. I don't worry about the driving aids things so much because I am sure that Scawen will balance out the aided actions so they are more on par with the manual actions a player can perform. If/when that happens the no-aids argument will become (almost) redundant. However I will still be advocating options to force certain hardware and software features because I see it as a totally different subject that has nothing to do with aids and everything to do with a race simulator.
Cue-ball, please watch the TBO WR replays. You'll discover that the top times all involve button clutch flat shifting which keeps the laggy turbo on full spool without the RL drawback of major engine and drivetrain trauma. That's why autoclutch with autoblip/lift is still a tad more realistic than button clutch. At least I won't suddenly shave 0.1 or more seconds off my lap times just because I use the button clutch. As it is, the autoclutch shifts about as quickly as I would a sport compact with a short shift gear lever. This flatshift issue is even worse with the turbo GTRs with even LAGGIER turbos (well, at least they should lag).
Even when I do get a great 3 pedal set, I'll still disagree with some of the forced options here if the majority of LFS players are still hardware limited. Let's just say that I'm a bit more considerate then some here. Once 3 pedal sets get real common and the clutch simulation is perfected, I'm all for turning all aids off.
The truth is, as good as LFS is ATM, there are still serious issues to the implementation of the option banning some driver aids. It's simply unfair and not so terribly realistic. With the clutch, transmission and other physics far from complete, why are we nick picking over this relatively pointless demand just to satisfy the whims of a small, lucky G25 owning minority? Even with your normal 2 pedal sets, the issue of the ridiculous button clutch rears its ugly head. One could force the use of axis clutch only, to the detriment of non G25 owners, since that's not properly doable. And when a sever is considered public, it's not because it's publically owned, but because it is open to use to the public (no passwords needed).
Scawen is much better off completing the physics, clutch, drivetrain simulation then waste precious time to satisfy the demands of a few. Please don't give the option to force things until LFS itself and the majority of the community is ready to realistically accomodate it. Let me again remind all here that the current active LFS community isn't as big as some of us might think. Most LFS players simply aren't heard from due to various practical reasons.
Speaking of repeats, this thread is in essence no different from the hardcore mode thread. As it is, LFS isn't really ready for a full-blown hardcore mode.
Finally, cue ball, stop throwing a bunch of silly assumptions about me. Ever wonder why these forums are dominated by just a few of us? I've read lots of threads and there's no surprise why I don't see many new guys partaking in serious discussions. And some of us here care more than just ourselves. And it's pretty obvious that you've completely misunderstood my intentions and statements. And if you're too tired to consistantly clutch and shift properly, you're probably fatigue and better off not racing at the time. And before you accsuse me of selfish motives, let me remind you that the majority of LFS and all other simulation racers are NOT G25 users. As mrodgers also said, all this talk of hardcore mode and shutting all aids off is based on the assumption that LFS is already fundamentally perfect in all ways related to driving. It's not.
To be more reasonable, let's do something like forced cockpit mode first. It doesn't really hurt anyone, but it'll definitely improve realism.
Even when I do get a great 3 pedal set, I'll still disagree with some of the forced options here if the majority of LFS players are still hardware limited. Let's just say that I'm a bit more considerate then some here. Once 3 pedal sets get real common and the clutch simulation is perfected, I'm all for turning all aids off.
The truth is, as good as LFS is ATM, there are still serious issues to the implementation of the option banning some driver aids. It's simply unfair and not so terribly realistic. With the clutch, transmission and other physics far from complete, why are we nick picking over this relatively pointless demand just to satisfy the whims of a small, lucky G25 owning minority? Even with your normal 2 pedal sets, the issue of the ridiculous button clutch rears its ugly head. One could force the use of axis clutch only, to the detriment of non G25 owners, since that's not properly doable. And when a sever is considered public, it's not because it's publically owned, but because it is open to use to the public (no passwords needed).
Scawen is much better off completing the physics, clutch, drivetrain simulation then waste precious time to satisfy the demands of a few. Please don't give the option to force things until LFS itself and the majority of the community is ready to realistically accomodate it. Let me again remind all here that the current active LFS community isn't as big as some of us might think. Most LFS players simply aren't heard from due to various practical reasons.
Speaking of repeats, this thread is in essence no different from the hardcore mode thread. As it is, LFS isn't really ready for a full-blown hardcore mode.
Finally, cue ball, stop throwing a bunch of silly assumptions about me. Ever wonder why these forums are dominated by just a few of us? I've read lots of threads and there's no surprise why I don't see many new guys partaking in serious discussions. And some of us here care more than just ourselves. And it's pretty obvious that you've completely misunderstood my intentions and statements. And if you're too tired to consistantly clutch and shift properly, you're probably fatigue and better off not racing at the time. And before you accsuse me of selfish motives, let me remind you that the majority of LFS and all other simulation racers are NOT G25 users. As mrodgers also said, all this talk of hardcore mode and shutting all aids off is based on the assumption that LFS is already fundamentally perfect in all ways related to driving. It's not.
To be more reasonable, let's do something like forced cockpit mode first. It doesn't really hurt anyone, but it'll definitely improve realism.
James, just shut up. As a keyboarder you have now got next to no rights to claim ANYTHING about realism, you're just here for fun. If it was my way I'd remove all options of keyboard, and only leave mouse or wheel control options.
Firstly, we know you think the TBO class has got laggy turbos. Stuck Record. We know you want them improved and balanced. Stuck Record. We know you think auto-clutch is more realistic than button clutch. Stuck Record.
What we are saying is that the clutch options should be improved so that neither auto-clutch or button clutch are the most realistic NOR the quickest way of driving. Don't like it? Buy a fecking wheel mate, and stop whinging around saying 'I don't want LFS to be realistic because I can't cope with it'.
Just shut up until you have something new to say, because you just repeat the same stuff over and over again, like a spoilt little boy. I'd expect something new from you (going on your posting history) in about 2008.
Firstly, we know you think the TBO class has got laggy turbos. Stuck Record. We know you want them improved and balanced. Stuck Record. We know you think auto-clutch is more realistic than button clutch. Stuck Record.
What we are saying is that the clutch options should be improved so that neither auto-clutch or button clutch are the most realistic NOR the quickest way of driving. Don't like it? Buy a fecking wheel mate, and stop whinging around saying 'I don't want LFS to be realistic because I can't cope with it'.
Just shut up until you have something new to say, because you just repeat the same stuff over and over again, like a spoilt little boy. I'd expect something new from you (going on your posting history) in about 2008.
YOU DARE TO SHOW SUCH STUPIDITY AND AUDACITY!
Finally, I've pried out your true nature. Always knew you were a complete **** and jerk. I could school you TO DEATH in RL car stuff and so far I've been remarkably patient given such jerkish behavior I've seen so far.
When was the last time I said I couldn't cope with clucth use? TELL ME.
AND CAN YOU PLEASE READ MY POSTS PROPERLY! I SAID I TRY TO RUN LFS AS REALISTICALLY AS HARDWARE ALLOWS. UNLIKE SOME OF YOU HERE, WE HAVE LIVES TO LIVE AND WORK TO DO, SO WE CAN'T JUST BINGE MONEY ON A LESS THAN COST EFFECTIVE GAME WHEEL WHEN MORE PRESSING MATTERS ARE AT HAND (SUCH AS MAINTANANCE OF REAL CARS).
FINALLY, I PAY AS MUCH FOR THE LICENSE AS ALL OF YOU HERE, SO MY POSTS ARE AS VALID AS EVERYONE ELSES. YOU ARE FREE TO CHECK OUT WITH THE DEVELOPERS ON THE LEGALITY AND VALIDITY OF MY LICENSE. AND YOU DARE TO TELL ME TO SHUT UP! DON'T WORRY, I'M WON'T BOTHER YOU GAMING JUNKIES AGAIN. REVEL IN YOUR ARROGANCE WHILE YOU STILL CAN. IT WON'T LAST.
Woah - people, relax a bit.
My approach to this subject is:
If it's an added feature then cool. I doubt I'd buy the full setup of h-shifters and clutches, but as long as LFS is able to be setup in ways that groups of people find it useful/enjoyable then I'm all for it. Same way as you can limit which cars are used on a track.
If someone doesn't want me on their server, for whatever reason - be it that I am slow, be it that I don't have a manual clutch of that I don't speak their language or just plain because they just don't want me there for no apparent (to me) reason - I respect it, it's their server and they can do whatever they want with it.
I'm sure that if server admins hosting a server with all the limitations active saw that their server wasn't attracting enough people for races then they'd compromise and reconfigure it accordingly. No one really wants an empty server.
My approach to this subject is:
If it's an added feature then cool. I doubt I'd buy the full setup of h-shifters and clutches, but as long as LFS is able to be setup in ways that groups of people find it useful/enjoyable then I'm all for it. Same way as you can limit which cars are used on a track.
If someone doesn't want me on their server, for whatever reason - be it that I am slow, be it that I don't have a manual clutch of that I don't speak their language or just plain because they just don't want me there for no apparent (to me) reason - I respect it, it's their server and they can do whatever they want with it.
I'm sure that if server admins hosting a server with all the limitations active saw that their server wasn't attracting enough people for races then they'd compromise and reconfigure it accordingly. No one really wants an empty server.
Isn't this supose to be a game?
Or you are here for the glory and money?
I Know a few very fast drivers using keyboard, when i say fast, i really mean that in the whole sense of the word.
If it was your way the keyboard was removed, and a few months later, same discussion, only this mouse was removed too.
If i could afford i would buy a complete race enviroment to play (notice the word play, instead of racing).
And if i could swim on money i would leave all the games behind and consider spent it on the real tracks, how about that?
You haven't pried out my true nature at all mate. I'm open and honest, and I say what I think. If you haven't noticed my true nature before then you ain't been watching.
When you wrote you were a keyboarder, and when you say you prefer button and auto clutch to manual clutch[/quote]
Which is what we want - realistically as a three pedal wheel set up allows. If you don't buy the hardware then it's your fault if LFS is 'optimised' for it.
Yup, I'm at work now, leading my life which is quite full of stuff thanks. And you tell us not to judge?
I manage to afford a wheel every ~6 years, look after a collection of 15 classic cars, run my own car, save up for a deposit on a house, travel round the country meeting friends, going out several times a week, paying for the up keep and preparation of couple of racing cars (admittedly with the assistance of my parents on that front). So don't talk to me about non-cost effective wheels. I spend, on average, about £30 a year on wheel hardware (averaged over the life span of a wheel). So, yet again, you didn't read/understand what we have written.
Yes, but only about the stuff you have any experience of, and as you don't own a wheel with or without a clutch, you are entirely unqualified to say what works/doesn't work, and what should/shouldn't be in LFS in this regard.
Now you're just getting immature.
Yep, and you haven't seemed to understand that yet.
Yay!
Bye. Don't let the keyboard controlled digital door hit you on the way out.
Of course you could. You know ALL about turbos and rally cars. And you obviously have a huge grasp of car physics, as you are clearly respected around here like Bob, Gentlefoot, Todd, Axus etc... Oh wait, you're not, you just REPEATEDLY whine about the same things over and over again. And then, after that last quote, you have the cheek to say WE are arrogant???? Have you checked what that word means, or are you so far up your laggy, active yaw controlled arse to not see the dictionary?
if some people complain about why autoclutch is faster than manual clutch, just say 'thank you' to all the stupid button clutch users in the past 
... And I believe it is by far better and fair now than before. While there is still stupid people (that is not going to change), we are not going to see things changed in the other way.
Same for in-car view, I really hope that thing will be solved
illepall, easy to fix, and will improve a lot realism.
For the keyboard stabilized, I think that some new players friendly with keyb in other game want to try LFS with this, but after a while, I suggest everyone to buy a wheel or a mouse. BTW, keyb is not as fast as in the crazy S1 times and that is a good thing
... And I believe it is by far better and fair now than before. While there is still stupid people (that is not going to change), we are not going to see things changed in the other way.Same for in-car view, I really hope that thing will be solved
illepall, easy to fix, and will improve a lot realism.For the keyboard stabilized, I think that some new players friendly with keyb in other game want to try LFS with this, but after a while, I suggest everyone to buy a wheel or a mouse. BTW, keyb is not as fast as in the crazy S1 times and that is a good thing
The language people, the language 
I really have no idea why this thread is something that makes the blood of some people boil so hot? It is all about adding a feature in LFS which would allow a group of people to fully use their hc set of controls - even though the controls aren't even 50% realistic or usable in the sim. Live and let live
I really have no idea why this thread is something that makes the blood of some people boil so hot? It is all about adding a feature in LFS which would allow a group of people to fully use their hc set of controls - even though the controls aren't even 50% realistic or usable in the sim. Live and let live
I think we should gather up the topics that cause such controversy (this sort, the ghostcar threads, the sound threads) and put up a sticky with summaries from "both polar opposite sides" of the story so we don't get re-runs.
Or form a League of Controversial Subjects, a two-team league where it's all decided in-game with races... hmmm!
It's about alienating between the 20 something crowd who don't have house payments, multiple mouths to feed, insurance bills, doctor's bills, insurance bills, kid clothing, house repairs, etc and the 30+ crowd who don't have $300 burning a hole in their pocket when the kids need something or the house needs a roof etc. $300 is ridiculous for a "game" controller if you have to buy it in order to "play" the game. A $50-70 Momo or DFP is mainstream and affordable. $300 is either the kids who don't have anything better to spend money on and don't know the worth of a dollar (USD speak, use what you have) or the rich snobs who can throw money around.
It's also a little different in LFS over here where you only have 30-40 people in servers and the majority of them are spread out amongst drift, cops n robbers, and hotlapping servers. It only leaves us with 1 server with racers and a handful of servers with those who don't want AS Nat, but want to race. Only racing with just 1 or 2 others sucks. With only 15 or so left to race with, and you loose half of them because they have $300 to waste, we are left with very little options for racing.
But we're NOT saying you HAVE to buy these things, especially at this price. What we are saying is that we would like to be able to filter servers so that people who manual clutch (and therefore at a disadvatage either in shift speed or misshifts) can play together. If it's not popular having restrictions on servers then people won't visit them, and then the majority will be happy. If the filters work, and people prefer to use servers knowing the playing field is lever, then more servers will use it, and the majority remains happy.
But there will ALWAYS be people who don't want to spend money on specialised hardware, and there will always be servers available to those people. Even when there are only two keyboard players left you can always make your own servers to play against each other, and chances are most wheel/mouse/G25 users will still be playing the vast majority of their time on unrestricted servers.
Thus, I (we?) don't understand when people say we want stupidly realistic restrictions put on everything, because quite simply that is just wrong. I've never wanted that. I'd get rid of keyboard controls in an instant (I've never seen a car with digital controls), but as long as it's in LFS you can play it. But not on servers where the OWNER of the server has decided he only wants the serious/dedicated/rich crowd to drive on it.
But there will ALWAYS be people who don't want to spend money on specialised hardware, and there will always be servers available to those people. Even when there are only two keyboard players left you can always make your own servers to play against each other, and chances are most wheel/mouse/G25 users will still be playing the vast majority of their time on unrestricted servers.
Thus, I (we?) don't understand when people say we want stupidly realistic restrictions put on everything, because quite simply that is just wrong. I've never wanted that. I'd get rid of keyboard controls in an instant (I've never seen a car with digital controls), but as long as it's in LFS you can play it. But not on servers where the OWNER of the server has decided he only wants the serious/dedicated/rich crowd to drive on it.
In the end it is all about allowing (some, probably very few) servers to easily put some simple limits on what kind of controllers are allowed. In my wildest dreams I can't imagine more than few percent of all servers setting these limits because these kind of controllers are very rare, meaning that there aren't many people to have what it takes to join. That being said, I don't have a clutch pedal either, neither I'm buying the G25.
But if you need to invest 300€+ to your controllers to get the quality you desire - you need the pay the 300€ first. You can't expect to get quality for free - Ecci pedals aren't free either and neither should they be, for example. They cost a lot, but they are hq, unlike some keyboards.
To add to this, I'm not sure should I feel sad or laugh at people who complain that they can't afford proper sim racing controllers. I use old MS non-FF wheel with my self-made pedals. Someone just bought a similar set from somewhere with just 2£. I could add clutch pedal to this system basically for free. All it takes is work. It wouldn't be easy, but even with my limited skills and equipment I could pull it off. If I wanted to have pressure sensitive brake pedals, I could make it myself. It would require long hours basically because of the electronics envolved etc. If I then wanted to race against other people with similar controls, I couldn't do it because some people with keyboard controllers feel being oppressed because they can't join... I mean, come on, live and let live.
You need to choose your hobbies on the basis on how much you can invest on it. If you want to race Porsches, you need to buy a Porsche. If you want to race sims, you need to have a computer and preferrably a wheel. A racing sim wouldn't harm either. Which you don't get for free. If you think sim-racing is too expensive for you, start jogging.
But if you need to invest 300€+ to your controllers to get the quality you desire - you need the pay the 300€ first. You can't expect to get quality for free - Ecci pedals aren't free either and neither should they be, for example. They cost a lot, but they are hq, unlike some keyboards.
To add to this, I'm not sure should I feel sad or laugh at people who complain that they can't afford proper sim racing controllers. I use old MS non-FF wheel with my self-made pedals. Someone just bought a similar set from somewhere with just 2£. I could add clutch pedal to this system basically for free. All it takes is work. It wouldn't be easy, but even with my limited skills and equipment I could pull it off. If I wanted to have pressure sensitive brake pedals, I could make it myself. It would require long hours basically because of the electronics envolved etc. If I then wanted to race against other people with similar controls, I couldn't do it because some people with keyboard controllers feel being oppressed because they can't join... I mean, come on, live and let live.
You need to choose your hobbies on the basis on how much you can invest on it. If you want to race Porsches, you need to buy a Porsche. If you want to race sims, you need to have a computer and preferrably a wheel. A racing sim wouldn't harm either. Which you don't get for free. If you think sim-racing is too expensive for you, start jogging.
Server should be able to force aids off...
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