Hi all!

When I try to shift without using the clutch in a real car, this attempt always results in an ugly grinding noise
Would be cool if such a grinding noise would be added to LFS...

What car? I would put money on being able to shift ANY manual car without a clutch without grinding gears. If you do, you're doing it wrong.

Clutchless shifting is a useful skill to learn if you are a serious driver, or a wannabe racing driver. Imagine one day your clutch fails on the way home, or it's starting to slip. In which case shifting without using the clutch, both up and down, might get you home, or to the end of the race. It's perfectly possible in any conventional manual gearbox (although the syncros will make it a slow process).

Of course, if your clutch has gone and you come to a stop there's not much you'll do about it...

no - i do believe that if you match the rpm's exactly you can do it, although it is more common in bikes than in cars

If "my clutch" was about to break, I would rather call the tow truck instead of trying clutchless shifts

I tried it in a Volkswagen Transporter (a big van) But I haven't tried it more than a few times, so it's quite possible that I did something wrong...

BUT: In GPL and in Racer shifts without the clutch result in grinding noises, so I assume it can happen, or why would the respective devs have taken the time to implement it?

I was under the impression that IRL if you do clutchless gearshifts for any prolonged amount of time (Including getting the revs to match) it would still screw your gearbox up?
Bit offtopic. But nevermind.

Your transmission won't grind if you try to shift without the clutch, it just won't allow you to shift into gear. Unless you rev match for clutchless shifts. The grinding comes from when you make a mistake with the pedal, trying to shift too fast in a production road car, or something like that.

I've been driving nothing but Toyota 4x4 trucks for the last 15 years. I shift without the clutch all the time. Upshift, downshift, it doesn't matter. You don't have to rev match with the throttle when upshifting, it will just slide into gear as the revs come down, but to downshift, you have to give the throttle a good blip and match it.

The bike, never used the clutch to upshift with the exception of first to second. Always used the clutch for downshift.

Yup its probably quite a handy thing to be able to shift without the clutch.

My Dad told me that years ago he was a pasenger in a bad car smash. The driver hit a weather post thing and my Dad's legs actually got trapped under the seat.

He got checked out and got the all clear but was still in pain. He decided to sleep on it and in the morning woke up and was in even more agony. They didn't have a phone in their flat and all his flat mates had gone off to work.

So he ended up having to drive to the hospital but just couldn't put pressure on the clutch without being in pain so what he did was start the car in gear down the hill so he didn't have to use the clutch at all. Although I bet cars following coming up to red lights were a bit annoyed since he had to cruise towards them as he obviously couldn't stop without stalling

In the end the staff at the hospital couldn't believe he was actually able to drive a car in his condition. The accident had done some serious damage to something in his back and he ended up having to lie still in position for weeks.

So it does have its uses as if he had to use the clutch then he probably just couldn't have done it.

you do get that noise if you just try to force it into gear without matching revs
of course if you know what youre doing and have the feel for it you just have to apply the right amount of pressure and the stick will stay right before the point of grinding and jump into gear once the revs match

tristan's right, clutchless shifting is quite easy... I did it a lot in my first car, just for fun... the gearbox survived, it died from an engine failure. I didn't even have a tachometer in this car, you just have to get the right feeling in the shifting stick (shifting stick? sounds strange...)

I sometimes try to shift without using the clutch, just for the fun of it. It doesn't make grinding noises; that only happens when I do use the clutch but in a bad way (but that hasn't happened to me for years).

If the revs don't match, you just can't put the gearbox into the right gear.

In response to some people talking about stopping without using the clutch: that's not hard either. Just push the throttle in a way that the engine isn't putting power on the drivetrain (neither braking nor accelerating); then you can push/pull the gear lever out of gear and into neutral quite easily. It's easier when you still have a certain amount of speed than when you're almost stopped.

I'm pretty sure the clutch isn't the primary issue with the grinding noise.

On my bike, sometimes when downshifting coming to a light I try to drop it into first a little to soon. The revs would, if I did shift, hit 4 1/2 thousand RPM on a 6 thousand redline. However, if I try this, when I tap to downshift the transmission grinds and I end up in neutral, the bike refusing to drop into first.

This might have to do with the gears. If memory serves, I belive in my bike the first gear's teeth are straight while the others are at an angle. This aids in shifting while moving, but obviously the first gear is a lot harder to slam into gear at high RPMs. And I don't revmatch on my bike, so possibly I might be able to get it into first at those speeds if I tried. Possibly.

I figure, the grinding noise comes from when the gears don't line up right and end up not sliding into place. The faster they're spinning, the harder it is for them not to catch. The purpose of the clutch is to aid in the catching of the gears. Thus, without the clutch, the game must assume the gears aren't catching (which, with a racecar, I'd guess is easier since most everything is spinning faster than on my bike).

Its all a guess, build from my personal experience and my limited understanding of automotive mechanics. Oh, and incase you're wondering, my first gear is fine. I haven't noticed any effect of the grinding noise (other than me shuttering).

Quote from Shinrar :

I'm pretty sure the clutch isn't the primary issue with the grinding noise.

On my bike, sometimes when downshifting coming to a light I try to drop it into first a little to soon. The revs would, if I did shift, hit 4 1/2 thousand RPM on a 6 thousand redline. However, if I try this, when I tap to downshift the transmission grinds and I end up in neutral, the bike refusing to drop into first.

This might have to do with the gears. If memory serves, I belive in my bike the first gear's teeth are straight while the others are at an angle. This aids in shifting while moving, but obviously the first gear is a lot harder to slam into gear at high RPMs. And I don't revmatch on my bike, so possibly I might be able to get it into first at those speeds if I tried. Possibly.

I figure, the grinding noise comes from when the gears don't line up right and end up not sliding into place. The faster they're spinning, the harder it is for them not to catch. The purpose of the clutch is to aid in the catching of the gears. Thus, without the clutch, the game must assume the gears aren't catching (which, with a racecar, I'd guess is easier since most everything is spinning faster than on my bike).

Its all a guess, build from my personal experience and my limited understanding of automotive mechanics. Oh, and incase you're wondering, my first gear is fine. I haven't noticed any effect of the grinding noise (other than me shuttering).

OK, looks like a lot of people can shift without the clutch and without grinding gears... So I think it's best to forget this suggestion... But thanks for everyone's reports on his experiences with clutchless shifting...
I think I have to try it again, maybe I was doing it at speeds that were too slow: I wasn't too comfortable trying stuff that I don't know about the outcome at too high speeds...

Quote from severin_schoepke :

OK, looks like a lot of people can shift without the clutch and without grinding gears... So I think it's best to forget this suggestion... But thanks for everyone's reports on his experiences with clutchless shifting...
I think I have to try it again, maybe I was doing it at speeds that were too slow: I wasn't too comfortable trying stuff that I don't know about the outcome at too high speeds...

if you wanna try out - 40-60km/h in gear 3/4 should be a good way too start of, if you have a "small" car.

Yes i agree, cant find em grind em.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Of course, if your clutch has gone and you come to a stop there's not much you'll do about it...

Just keep it in gear and use the starter motor. This combined with clutchless shifting has got me home twice already when my clutch cable broke. The shifting part does work better on some cars than on others. On my Renault 5 from third gear upwards was so easy that pressing the clutch was just a waste of time and effort.

I've shifted without the clutch before, and it isn't too hard. This being said, I've certainly mis-shifted and ground the gears. It's not hard to do clutchless shifts, but if you aren't trying to do it, and let the clutch out before actually shifting, you get a pretty awful grinding noise. Also, shifting into reverse while the car is slightly rolling usually makes a grinding noise too.

Quote from 96 GTS :

Also, shifting into reverse while the car is slightly rolling usually makes a grinding noise too.

depends on the car ... some have synched reverse some dont