Greetings.
I know what you're thinking... "Oh no, not another LFS vs XXX thread"
However, I prepose to make this and productive and (at least subjectively) objective as humanly possible.
At the end of September(ish) I purchased a copy of GTR2 at the local shop. I've spent many hours w/GTR2 and have taken abundant time to get used to and give it a chance. You see, I really *want* to like other sims. I thoroughly enjoy LFS; in fact I've been accused a few times of
being too "fanboyish" for LFS. Nonetheless, even I get bored and frustrated from time to time waiting for "when it's done" to roll around. So, without further adieu: let the review commence.
Machine:
Athlon 64 3000+
eVGA 7900GTO 512MB
2GB PC3200
300GB SATAII
19" TFT
MOMO RACING w/ clutch pedal addon
1) Graphics
GTR2 has much more glitz than LFS as of course. Backfires, DX9 lighting, glowing rotors, decent cockpits and whatnot. In full detail at high res, it actually looks pretty nice. The tracks are a tad to saturated for my taste giving it that slightly "cartoony" ambience, but I still find it mostly appealing. Some may not, and I could understand why. I do "prefer" the more subtle and natural environment of LFS however. Certain effects are very well done such as the sun glare and of course night racing is just nifty, as are the day/night transitions. Other than the unnatural color, there really is nothing to complain about in terms of graphics. In
lots of respects it was a nice step up from LFS
2) Sound
I'm sure most are aware of the differences in sound "philosophy" between LFS and other sims. Of course, GTR2 uses samples from the real cars. I've never been a fan of this method and have never seen it done well enough to be convincing in conditions other than either full throttle,
or no throttle. GTR2 is no different in this regard unfortunately. It's a bit of a love/hate thing because there are of course moments where it's just sublime without a doubt. Running a practice session with mixed classes yielded me a few of these occasions. Racing down the straight of Monza GP Junior in the NGT Ferrari 360 at night... The 360 was screaming along full tilt in 4th, while a Ferrari 575 (GT class) went by full tilt to my left. The resulting euphony was almost eargasmic I would say and shivers shot up my spine it sounded so beautiful. However, after braking hard for T1, I had to modulate the throttle to maintain line at which point it turned into a cacophony and reminded me just why sampled sounds applied in this fashion are a big downer. Like I said, it's a love hate thing. The other sounds are OK for the most part and of course there is a plethora of things GTR2 does audibly that LFS doesn't yet and it is good. One thing that is bothersome though is that the "lost lateral traction" sound is
dreadful in that it is the same under all conditons; like it's been programmed to play one particular sample of specific length no matter what. Oh well.
3) Tire Physics - longitudinal
Acceleration and braking are much more affected by wheelspin / lockup than in LFS. There is a multitude of opinions on whether this is correct behaviour or not so in all honesty I don't know. I don't think even Todd knows for sure since not much public literature has curves that go far enough to tell (maybe he'll enlighten us). I just know that once you have lockup or spin in GTR2, all hell breaks loose (so to speak). Tire heat makes a marked difference in this area and exaggerates the former phenomenon as well. To my knowledge, flatspots don't exist in GTR2
however.
4) Tire Physics - Lateral
God help us with this one. For some reason, the moment one even thinks about going over the limit laterally, the tires turn into blocks of ice, and the front wheels no longer steer. This is the one aspect of GTR2 that totally and completely ruins the experience and causes me to use
up my yearly profanity quota in a matter of seconds. A quick glance at the tire curves (courtesy of Axus) reveals that lateral grip falls off like a cliff once the limit is passed. It's hard to imagine that anyone who's ever driven a car (and I'm sure the folks at SimBin can afford some pretty nice ones!) would think that a tire curve could look like this. Considering that race cars and racing are all about handling, this is a real deal-breaker for this sim and the most dissappointing thing about GTR2.
(disclaimer: I know LFS isn't perfect but it's very good in this regard even now.) Once the backend starts to slip out, there is NOTHING you can do to get it back. Countersteer till your hearts content, it doesn't matter. The smallest of wee mistakes will invariably and immutibly have you enjoying the track from a perspective 180 degrees from normal. I *cannot* stress how ridiculous and annoying this is, and just plain unacceptable from anything claiming to be a simulator.
5) Physics General
The brake temperature feature is very nice indeed! I don't know if tire deformation is calculated, but it certainly isn't drawn. It doesn't "feel" like it's there so I doubt it. Bummer. Car setup features work much like LFS although there are some setting that LFS lacks at the moment, like preload.
6) Force Feedback
Much like the sound and graphics, it's mostly for show from what I can tell (see a pattern so far?) I'd be lying if I said I didn't sometimes enjoy the wheel vibrations from the engine (although if your engine vibrates your wheel from side to side in your real car... that's a problem you may want to investigate!). Understeer is made awkwardly apparant via a sudden
release in wheel resistance along with some vibrations. I don't get the impression than the FFB is directly related to the physics like it is in LFS. Most of the time is seems to do an OK job. There are no FWD cars of course, which would help to understand how FFB in GTR2 works.
7) Damage
You can smash your headlights and break off a body panel or two, which affects downforce. That's about it really.
...
There are a lot of "personal preferrence" comparisons between the two, but the tire model is the deal breaker. GTR2 has lots of nice things that make me wish it was a realistic sim, that's for sure. In conclusion, I bring this analogy I posted in the rF thread because it sums things up nicely, and is actually on topic here:
GTR2:
"It's like heading down to the bar and picking up some hottie bar fly chick with fake boobs and daisy-dukes, and getting a quick romp in the hay; leaving you with nothing more than an itchy crotch and an empty wallet in the morning. LFS is more like the medium-pretty girl who has character and substance underneath... You should marry LFS, it can only get better with time like a good marriage, because it's not built on superficialities. The bonus with LFS is that one day it'll turn into the hottie just to finish it off. Conversely, the "sim whores" of the world have no hope of ever having the substance they lack which is tragic indeed."
Like any slut, GTR2 has sex appeal that can make you crave more. Once you "go around" a few times you realize the relationship between you and the ... sim ... is shallow and only based on depraved desire for a few moments of extasy instigated by a lust for extreme sensory input.
I gave it a chance, and I'm not going to delete it because occasionally it's still "fun". When i want to *drive* something though, LFS is still in a league of it's own IMO.
I know what you're thinking... "Oh no, not another LFS vs XXX thread"
However, I prepose to make this and productive and (at least subjectively) objective as humanly possible.
At the end of September(ish) I purchased a copy of GTR2 at the local shop. I've spent many hours w/GTR2 and have taken abundant time to get used to and give it a chance. You see, I really *want* to like other sims. I thoroughly enjoy LFS; in fact I've been accused a few times of
being too "fanboyish" for LFS. Nonetheless, even I get bored and frustrated from time to time waiting for "when it's done" to roll around. So, without further adieu: let the review commence.
Machine:
Athlon 64 3000+
eVGA 7900GTO 512MB
2GB PC3200
300GB SATAII
19" TFT
MOMO RACING w/ clutch pedal addon
1) Graphics
GTR2 has much more glitz than LFS as of course. Backfires, DX9 lighting, glowing rotors, decent cockpits and whatnot. In full detail at high res, it actually looks pretty nice. The tracks are a tad to saturated for my taste giving it that slightly "cartoony" ambience, but I still find it mostly appealing. Some may not, and I could understand why. I do "prefer" the more subtle and natural environment of LFS however. Certain effects are very well done such as the sun glare and of course night racing is just nifty, as are the day/night transitions. Other than the unnatural color, there really is nothing to complain about in terms of graphics. In
lots of respects it was a nice step up from LFS
2) Sound
I'm sure most are aware of the differences in sound "philosophy" between LFS and other sims. Of course, GTR2 uses samples from the real cars. I've never been a fan of this method and have never seen it done well enough to be convincing in conditions other than either full throttle,
or no throttle. GTR2 is no different in this regard unfortunately. It's a bit of a love/hate thing because there are of course moments where it's just sublime without a doubt. Running a practice session with mixed classes yielded me a few of these occasions. Racing down the straight of Monza GP Junior in the NGT Ferrari 360 at night... The 360 was screaming along full tilt in 4th, while a Ferrari 575 (GT class) went by full tilt to my left. The resulting euphony was almost eargasmic I would say and shivers shot up my spine it sounded so beautiful. However, after braking hard for T1, I had to modulate the throttle to maintain line at which point it turned into a cacophony and reminded me just why sampled sounds applied in this fashion are a big downer. Like I said, it's a love hate thing. The other sounds are OK for the most part and of course there is a plethora of things GTR2 does audibly that LFS doesn't yet and it is good. One thing that is bothersome though is that the "lost lateral traction" sound is
dreadful in that it is the same under all conditons; like it's been programmed to play one particular sample of specific length no matter what. Oh well.
3) Tire Physics - longitudinal
Acceleration and braking are much more affected by wheelspin / lockup than in LFS. There is a multitude of opinions on whether this is correct behaviour or not so in all honesty I don't know. I don't think even Todd knows for sure since not much public literature has curves that go far enough to tell (maybe he'll enlighten us). I just know that once you have lockup or spin in GTR2, all hell breaks loose (so to speak). Tire heat makes a marked difference in this area and exaggerates the former phenomenon as well. To my knowledge, flatspots don't exist in GTR2
however.
4) Tire Physics - Lateral
God help us with this one. For some reason, the moment one even thinks about going over the limit laterally, the tires turn into blocks of ice, and the front wheels no longer steer. This is the one aspect of GTR2 that totally and completely ruins the experience and causes me to use
up my yearly profanity quota in a matter of seconds. A quick glance at the tire curves (courtesy of Axus) reveals that lateral grip falls off like a cliff once the limit is passed. It's hard to imagine that anyone who's ever driven a car (and I'm sure the folks at SimBin can afford some pretty nice ones!) would think that a tire curve could look like this. Considering that race cars and racing are all about handling, this is a real deal-breaker for this sim and the most dissappointing thing about GTR2.
(disclaimer: I know LFS isn't perfect but it's very good in this regard even now.) Once the backend starts to slip out, there is NOTHING you can do to get it back. Countersteer till your hearts content, it doesn't matter. The smallest of wee mistakes will invariably and immutibly have you enjoying the track from a perspective 180 degrees from normal. I *cannot* stress how ridiculous and annoying this is, and just plain unacceptable from anything claiming to be a simulator.5) Physics General
The brake temperature feature is very nice indeed! I don't know if tire deformation is calculated, but it certainly isn't drawn. It doesn't "feel" like it's there so I doubt it. Bummer. Car setup features work much like LFS although there are some setting that LFS lacks at the moment, like preload.
6) Force Feedback
Much like the sound and graphics, it's mostly for show from what I can tell (see a pattern so far?) I'd be lying if I said I didn't sometimes enjoy the wheel vibrations from the engine (although if your engine vibrates your wheel from side to side in your real car... that's a problem you may want to investigate!). Understeer is made awkwardly apparant via a sudden
release in wheel resistance along with some vibrations. I don't get the impression than the FFB is directly related to the physics like it is in LFS. Most of the time is seems to do an OK job. There are no FWD cars of course, which would help to understand how FFB in GTR2 works.
7) Damage
You can smash your headlights and break off a body panel or two, which affects downforce. That's about it really.
...
There are a lot of "personal preferrence" comparisons between the two, but the tire model is the deal breaker. GTR2 has lots of nice things that make me wish it was a realistic sim, that's for sure. In conclusion, I bring this analogy I posted in the rF thread because it sums things up nicely, and is actually on topic here:
GTR2:
"It's like heading down to the bar and picking up some hottie bar fly chick with fake boobs and daisy-dukes, and getting a quick romp in the hay; leaving you with nothing more than an itchy crotch and an empty wallet in the morning. LFS is more like the medium-pretty girl who has character and substance underneath... You should marry LFS, it can only get better with time like a good marriage, because it's not built on superficialities. The bonus with LFS is that one day it'll turn into the hottie just to finish it off. Conversely, the "sim whores" of the world have no hope of ever having the substance they lack which is tragic indeed."
Like any slut, GTR2 has sex appeal that can make you crave more. Once you "go around" a few times you realize the relationship between you and the ... sim ... is shallow and only based on depraved desire for a few moments of extasy instigated by a lust for extreme sensory input.
I gave it a chance, and I'm not going to delete it because occasionally it's still "fun". When i want to *drive* something though, LFS is still in a league of it's own IMO.
Oh Shit 