I found two videos which I think illustrate why we are so keen on trying to get more lock.

The first one has a rather moderate, easy drifts with some angle, but not a full "drift attack" or whatever you like to call it. This can be replicated with the XRT, no problems there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlIVLrFdBzQ

In the second video you'll se a fully modified drift machine with god knows how much steering angle. It doesn't get much more agressive than this.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1294503519989310280


What we are intrested in copying is the driving style seen in the second video. I hope most of you will now understand why we are asking for more steering lock.

One thing I'd like to ask (before I hit the sack, again ) is for anyone to mention one, just one solid reason how this change would affect racing in any way. The way I see it, it's a win-win situation and I haven't been able to think of one valid reason why not to do this. Drifters can set the lock they like = happy, racers can set the lock they like = happy? Please don't mention anything like "ooh but it's not realistic / RL cars don't have that / the fenders will be borked!11" we've been thru all those. Just something that in your mind DIRECTLY makes a race worse.

Nice vid that second one.

But dude 4 posts in a row?? There *is* an edit button

I smell :spam:

FWIW I'm not anti-drift and never have been. It's a motorsport after all, requiring lots of skill and it's fun to watch. But it's not racing. Racing means receiving points for being faster than the rest, not for your style. As a racer I'm a bit of a purist, and as LFS is meant to be a high-end race-sim, I think the focus should remain on racing. Simple as that. Any other peripheral concerns don't really merit much attention imho But don't worry about my opinion (I'm sure you don't) - it's Scawen & Eric you need to convince about drift-assistance, not me.

as far as catering for drifters is concerned imho it would be a good decision for scawen and eric to at least respond to their wishes a little

the fact of the matter is drifting is getting more and more popular and a large group of the drift fans want more than arcadish console drift games
furthermore lfs is the only sim on the market which has tyre physics good enough to drift (except vrc maybe ... but that one is aiming at a totaly different market)
so as long as were talking about 5 mins of work (like changing the max lock) i dont see why scawen wouldnt do it to keep his customers and potential customers happy

Quote from Hankstar :

I doubt Scawen is going to give 45 degs of lock to the XRT just to satisfy a few people, especially since he already removed the excess lock to bring LFS more or less in line with reality.

Why, I doubt it too, but what stops us trying? The request would be for all RWD street cars however. Not counting the RB4 because that car also has the front wheels transferring the power and FWD/4WD cars can't have as much steering lock as pure RWD cars because of their design. Oh, and we've been through the "realism" argument quite a few (too many) times now.

Quote from Hankstar :

seems like a piffling, insignificant little detail which affects a tiny minority of LFS players

It is an little detail if that's how you want to put it, but it's an important little detail to some of us. Don't think I would be posting in this thread just to spend my time for fun. I'm dead serious.

Quote from Hankstar :

FWIW I'm not anti-drift and never have been. It's a motorsport after all, requiring lots of skill and it's fun to watch. But it's not racing.

No it's not racing, it is more of an motorsport competition/hobby. No one, in this thread anyway, has said it would be racing. What's the point here?

Quote from Hankstar :

As a racer I'm a bit of a purist, and as LFS is meant to be a high-end race-sim, I think the focus should remain on racing. Simple as that.

So you want "all the silly little drifters" to go back in to their NFSU games? Sorry, but that isn't how it's going to work. Like Shotglass said, LFS is the only sim out there that gives you the immense satisfaction of drifting. There is nothing else out there that can provide the same feeling. LFS being purely a racing simulator? I think the racers and drifters community could live amongst together just fine with a bit more understanding towards eachother. If this is how drifters are to be thought upon in the future too, you can trust that your sold license numbers will be going down.

Quote from Hankstar :

Any other peripheral concerns don't really merit much attention imho But don't worry about my opinion (I'm sure you don't) - it's Scawen & Eric you need to convince about drift-assistance, not me.

It does seem like "fighting" a losing battle, but when I saw a thread about this pop up again few days ago I just had to press reply. Like psdf, I don't see any cons in this "deal". Like he said, it's a win-win situation. Race purists can keep their low steering locks without minding the underground drifters.

I don't know does Scawen or Eric have some goodies (a car/track) planned especially for drifters, but I have rather high doubts about it. If even this small request is so negatively approached upon, why are we even here? I race too, but my drift/race balance is more of 90/10 percent. So drifting is my main "thing" about LFS and racing is just the extra part. I know it should be the other way around, but that is how LFS has always been to me.

If the devs could at least acknowledge the drifters and at least reply to this small request thread, I would be quite delighted. I would love to hear the original cause of the reducing the steering lock from S1 rates to S2 right from the devs, not just guessing from racers. It would also be nice to hear is there any hope of us getting the steering lock back. If not, I'll shut my trap forever.

My previous post was supposed to be last, but this one is. Honest.

Quote from Hankstar :

I smell :spam:

FWIW I'm not anti-drift and never have been. It's a motorsport after all, requiring lots of skill and it's fun to watch. But it's not racing. Racing means receiving points for being faster than the rest, not for your style. As a racer I'm a bit of a purist, and as LFS is meant to be a high-end race-sim, I think the focus should remain on racing. Simple as that. Any other peripheral concerns don't really merit much attention imho But don't worry about my opinion (I'm sure you don't) - it's Scawen & Eric you need to convince about drift-assistance, not me.

You don't want to know what I smell...

Oh come on mang, LFS is and can be used for other purposes. How many changes have you seen made in favour of drifters so far? For the millionth time, we ain't asking for no moon from no sky but a tiny, almost insignificant change, which would bring lots of fun for our kind. Ofcourse LFS' main point is and always will remain in being the most realistic racing sim known to man, that's the way it should be. BUT wouldn't you agree that the more paying members we have, the better? The more money this creates for the devs, the more they can concentrate their efforts into creating the best sim known to man. Think of it like Ferrari making road cars to finance their racing operations.

I'm not sure if some people have this idea that we're trying to make LFS more arcade like or whatever. That is definitely NOT the case. If anything, we all want the physics to be so realistic you can smell the burnt rubber yourself! I think there is no other sim on the market that even comes close to LFS and the overall feeling of driving we have. That's why we're so agressive here, we don't have any place to go if anything were to happen to LFS!

Adding a 45 degree steering lock would make LFS totally unrealistic, I truly mean it. And yes, current possibilites with suspension, brakes, gearbox etc settings are 100% realistic.

p.s.: Guys! Keep on rockin! Don't stop ignoring Toni's arguments! Way to go!


If you guys are so much into realism then let's ask Scawen to block all the setup settings in road cars.. Keep them stock. Really, most of the racers just get setups from others or team inferno site without even checking how it's been set under the hood. Why? Because they don't care if the setup is 100% realistic, or actually they wouldn't even be able to understand when it becomes unrealistic - I wouldn't too.

The only argument behind "No 45 degrees steering lock" is - Screw Drifters. Imo.

Quote from kamkorPL :

If you guys are so much into realism then let's ask Scawen to block all the setup settings in road cars.. Keep them stock.

I'd see that happening sooner than you'll get your 45 degree lock. Have you thought about that you are now asking for more settings but in the future Scawen could make the exactly opposite thing and reduce/block settings on all road cars to a more realistic level? I guess drifters would be highly against this, even that it would be a step towards realism.

Quote from deggis :

it would be a step towards realism.

no its a step towards reality dont confuse those 2

Quote from RudolfR :

Scawen , can we see that in U26 please ?

Yes of course, hang on while Scawen adds it to the compatible patch.

I think that the max lock setting in STD, TBO, LRF cars should be removed completely.

Dang, is this thread still kickin'?

Well, much as I'd love to go qutoe-mad and address every point individually, I have work to do so I'll be quick

Regardless of what I think or what anyone else thinks or how long their posts are or how many quotes they employ, the merit of including anything to improve drifting in LFS will need to be judged by the guys who will be doing the actual work. Has anyone asking for these modifications ever pm'd the devs or asked them publicly for their point of view on such things? Might be a good idea to get the word from the source, as it were...

BTW, attempting to paint me as some kind of anti-drifter by using terms like "silly little drifters" and implying that I think that way, or assuming that I want drifters to sod off and go back to NFSU simply isn't accurate or honest. I've never said anything like that and I think I've been pretty clear about my point of view in this thread. Please don't attribute attitudes or statements to me in your next paragraph that have no basis in fact, especially if you're quoting me directly! However, I know drifters tend to cop it a bit on this forum, so I'm not surprised by such a defensive reaction. Just know that it's not necessary with me. I'm a very nice man

Having said that, it's generally been a pleasure to read well-written responses which are in English and not 1337 and that actually make sense, so thanks :up: You put a lot of native English-speakers to shame

Quote from wheel4hummer :

I think that the max lock setting in STD, TBO, LRF cars should be removed completely.

Yep, all the caster settings etc were dropped a while back and I think the road cars should be even more limited as they are NOT race spec cars. There are probably loads of settings that should not be adjustable on these cars like final drive and gear ratios etc etc.

I do think a dedicated drift car should be added with a fugly body kit and massive wing to keep the drift crowd happy BUT it should have ALL the negative aero effects that they bring. This should be the ONLY car that allows massive steering angles.

hi all! as im also a drifter in lfs for a veeery long time now i had to reply this thread and share my selfish opinion with you
at first i have to say i completely agree with matrixi, what he sais is the reality, i could copypasta here all of his replies (except only a small thing: he said drifting is not racing. well drifting IS a racing sport since there are competitions ans serious drifting events. think about D1).

and my thoughts:
im into lfs since the first demo came out and started racing in the hungarian lfs championship in the demo and in s1 seasons. since 2003 im drifting. you can guess, yes ive started with the xrt . i friend of mine from the lfs gripping community joined me and soon we were known as the best hungarian drifters. in 2005 we gathered with many other people from hungary who wanted to make drifting in our country a real organized and well known sport. We now have http://drifter.hu and had 3 serious drifting events until today. In the mean time i have been building my own drift car for almost a year now. (guess what kind of car! yes, its an ae86 )
in order to prepare my car for drifting i had to learn many things about car tuning and i can say modding the steering system is essential for a driftcar.
for a drifter the goal is to get less steeringwheel turns and more steering lock. making more steering angle is one of the easiest trick. could be done with a few money by shortening the steering knuckle arms and making some spacers for the tie-rods. changing the steering rack and pinion is also a possibility to get less wheelturns and more lock. these hacks are way more cheaper and easier to do than 4xmpl changing the whole transmission.
since im going for reality, i only drift with the lowest spec non-turbo xrgt because that matches the most to my ae86. im using dfp with 900°(this much wheel turn is possible irl.) i have fiberglassed a clutch to my pedalset (its a momo racing brake pedal) made a gated H shifter out of a joystick and an analog handbrake of aluminum rods. now thats the challlenge folks!
although me and my friend are always on the limit and drift the hell out of this low spec car even with the low maximum lock angle, we still want more angle. this wouldnt make us any faster or better drifters but would make our possibilities wider range and make our drifts more precise and more controllable. and i said what is the goal in modifying the steering, more angle while less wheelturn. in my case im always having a hard time when there is a chicane and need to turn my wheel from lock to lock 2-4 times while its only 36°. if my max lock would be 45° or maybe more, i would reach 36° much faster.

if you want to know, i dont really care about what thoes pesky grippers saying about what is real or irreal since i know they are mostly dont know anything about real life driftcars nor drifting. (and damn some ppl cant understand thet more max angle wouldnt hurt them.)
and anyway: I KNOW IM RIGHT! ;P

thanks for listening


edit: i give you some piccies to get the feeling of thoes kamikaze hachi drifters!

some short thoughts that came into my mind:
-higher lock would help me recover from thoes spins tah is caused by the false tire temperature->traction loose problem :P
-it is true that a skilled drifter can handle the lower lock, but do not want to. im the perfect example
-somebody said it wouldnt be a compatible patch. is say: O RLY? then explain how the hell would affect the previous wr's laptimes etc?...
it is fair to release it in the next compatible patch because: 1.: it wouldnt make anybody faster. nobody will get better laptimes because of this. thats a fact. 2.: eveybody can download it and get more angle if he wants.

I still don't think it's ok to make it 45 degrees...
If you have oversteer, you are able to recover it more easily, or more often...
And normal cars don't have 45 degrees... so it would be less racing SIM...
I know, world records aren't driven with 36 degrees etc. but I don't drive world records and with 45 degrees it will ruin the game...

I know, I don't have to drive with 45 degrees, but if I have oversteer, and I don't catch it... then I'm pretty pissed I don't had 45 degrees...
Bt again... having 45 degrees isn't 'real'

-THE END-

Drifting ISN'T racing mate. Racing is who can get over a set distance in the least time. Drifting is who can drive most like a loon, it doesn't matter if your 5 seconds slower over the course (afaik, but if it was then all the drivers would be neat and tidy to be fast)

to: BlakjeKaas
you repeat the same stupidity over and over again
i dont get how could you be in a community like this one and play lfs while youre this much wooden-headed / old fashioned.

to: tristancliffe
thats the fukken proof that you dont know anything about drifting. the likes of you should stay quiet when it comes to a talk about drifting, instead of mocking.
drifting is a kind of car racing, but it has different rules and ways to decide who is the best.
and thats the main point of all the racing: deciding who is the best racer!

btw racing cars are always modded, more or less. live for speed IS a racing simulator.
i you going for stock cars and regular car parts. shouldnt it be called: life for sepped, online ricer simulator or stock car simulator? or maybe... street racing simulator?

Oh god, PLEASE don't start a new pro/contra drifting discussion. Anyway, Tristan is right, if you like it or not. Racing always involves someone being the fastest over a certain distance, and that's clearly not the point of drifting. You don't call figureskating a race too, do you? :nol2:

aah nevermind.
what im trying to say that higher lock wont hurt anybody
rightnow all the cars in lfs (including all the lowes spec cars) are race cars with a lot of modifications and adjustable parts (tons of gears, adjustable damping etc.) stock have almost nothing that is adjustable on them.
45° and ever higher lock and modified steering cars do exist irl. and it is very common in the world of drifting.
so i dont get why only this part of lfs is not adjustable to make it higher then 36°.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Oh god, PLEASE don't start a new pro/contra drifting discussion. Anyway, Tristan is right, if you like it or not. Racing always involves someone being the fastest over a certain distance, and that's clearly not the point of drifting. You don't call figureskating a race too, do you? :nol2:

well i dont know if its a considered as serious sport as speed skating or not (i guess it is)
but i wouldnt go and tell them: hey your stupid ballett so lame it lacks all seriousness i could laugh at you all day and my sport is way better!! ;P


edit: figure skating -> competitions
in drifting there are competition types where it counts who reaches the finish first. these are the touge drifts 4xmpl. -> racing

This was looking like an actual discussion for a little while there, and now it's going the way all these threads go. Very sad, but predictable I guess Don't listen to me though, I'm only a "pesky gripper". LOL.

FYI (before this thread gets locked up) - from Dictionary.com comes this little gem:


race: a contest of speed, as in running, riding, driving, or sailing.

And from the Drift Australia website:

"Drifting is an ‘extreme’ sport. Unlike other types of motor sport it is not just about who is fastest or who crosses the line first. Drifting is a judged sport – just like surfing, snow-boarding, freestyle BMX...

A panel of judges assess the relative car control demonstrated by each driver by awarding points for criteria such as speed, angle, line, ability to emulate the other driver, proximity between the cars, etc. and choose a winner..."


Since drifting is not a straight-out contest of speed, rather a contest of style where points are awarded subjectively (as explained above), I fail to see how it can be described as racing as defined by a dictionary. That doesn't mean I hate it (I already said I like watching it) - that's simply the cold, hard fact. Drifting is a legitimate sport which involves cars, however, and takes skill to be good at, just like racing. It's been sanctioned in Australia as an official motorsport by CAMS (Confederation of Australian MotorSport), the national governing body.

So please, kids, let's use the correct terminology so as not to confuse the issue (and try not to "fukken" abuse people, grow up please, Lajoosh - that crap isn't helping) and we can all have a discussion as opposed to a ridiculous flame-fest.

You sir, need a nice big cup of GTHO.

Seriously.

I bet you really do not see the hilarious-slash-tragic futility in whining and complaining about how drifters and their feature requests (which have been, by the way, requested many times before) are not pampered here.

[insert emoticon of choice]

Quote from Hankstar :

I'm only a "pesky gripper". LOL.

cant you see im jusk making fun of how grippers refer to drifters? :S

the description from drift au is clearly right. its not just about who finish first.


and for you spankmeyer: youre just another guy says gtfo to the more talented and skilled drifters because you think what they do is stupid. and anyway what you wrote clearly shows that you just like to irritate and poke others. thats all.
btw im a paying buyer of lfs and as i can see i joined the lfs community months befor you did so youre not the person to tell me gtfo.
peace

edit: sorry if i hurt somebody's lil' feelings. please proceed with the conversation peacefull, that was all what i wanted to say. im off to my gf