Quote from Quint999 :

I thought the new moderation had got a handle on this sort of thing, but i guess theres still a way to go.

What sort of thing?

I firmly believe that both James and I can cope, and I know for a fact that Gunn will not favour insults towards me as opposed to from me in a locking situation. As always I am prepared to stand down in any argument at either the request of a mod, or the natural ending of said argument.

James is as free to insult me as I am to insult him, within the boundaries of decency, and the fact he has now started to insult me is a good sign, which I am pleased about, because it means any pretence at being one up on someone is lost. Long live (controlled) insults

But I guess it boils down to being adult and being able to handle hard topics without the need of insults. Basically it is letting some things posted on some forum to get under your skin if you need insults to make a point. Getting personal is hardly ever necessary if you are still talking about the original subject. Or is it really?

Quote from Hyperactive :

But I guess it boils down to being adult and being able to handle hard topics without the need of insults. Basically it is letting some things posted on some forum to get under your skin if you need insults to make a point. Getting personal is hardly ever necessary if you are still talking about the original subject.

Hyperactive, I actually agree with you on this 100%.

Quote from tristancliffe :

...

stop it will ya ? i believe im not the only one whos sympathy youre losing with those posts

Quote from Hyperactive :

Kev Becky
Tristan Jamexing
Jakg every male on lfsforum
Vendetta everyone except Jakg

hey im way in front of jamexing in the sadness ratings ... i should be on that list too !

and i thought ven only did it with keith ?

Quote from Shotglass :

hey im way in front of jamexing in the sadness ratings ... i should be on that list too !

and i thought ven only did it with keith ?

Kev Becky
Tristan Jamexing
Jakg every male on lfsforum
Vendetta everyone except Jakg and Shotglass

Done

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As to the topic, I get this strange feeling that if you limit the castor settings to some small (=realistic in99% cases) range with few options -> people would just use as much caster as possible. So I am asking: is there any reason to add a feature which has only one competitive option? It is like adding a ballast option in the setup menus - who would put ballast in his car unless forced?

Quote from Hyperactive :

Kev Becky
Tristan Jamexing
Jakg every male on lfsforum
Vendetta everyone except Jakg and Shotglass

Done

awww man i want some sweet loving too

Quote :

As to the topic, I get this strange feeling that if you limit the castor settings to some small (=realistic in99% cases) range with few options -> people would just use as much caster as possible. So I am asking: is there any reason to add a feature which has only one competitive option? It is like adding a ballast option in the setup menus - who would put ballast in his car unless forced?

i think a few drifters would use lower caster (could all of you please just use this spelling ? the other one is some ugly uranium craddle plus it looks stupid)

I can remember from back in the day I used caster actively to enhance the feel of my setup. +1 for bringing it back, with realistic range.

In real life (in my car at least) I could get more caster at the expense of some camber. At the max of 1 deg camber I can get about 4 degrees of caster. If I went up to the max of 6 deg caster, I might only be able to get 0.5 camber. I've heard that on a tight course such as an autocross layout it might be beneficial to max the caster and then get what camber I can (due to the extra camber you get from the caster in tighter turns), whereas on a track you'd want to max camber. This could be an interesting thing to play with in LFS....

However, with the almost limitless setup options we have right now, I would imagine we would be able to have max caster regardless of any other settings, then people would just max the caster for the most part (as previously mentioned).

I believe I've explained this already, but more caster isn't always better. Sure it does have the advantage of improving self centering and helping to plant the front tire more evenly onto the ground. But it also adds steering effort and too much of it could cause result in a twitchy car. IRL, large amounts of castor would require power steering since the the steering effort required over a long race is simply excessive. As the saying goes in racecar engineering circles:

"Yes, your front end geometry plants the tires like crazy, but what for if no-one can drive it for more than 15 minutes without calling it a pig?"

Again, there are cases where less caster is a good thing. For instance, drifters don't need much self centering or feel. In fact, it makes the car a bit more predictable whilst the steering is turned as the tire to road contact angles don't change as drastically. Lower steering effort helps them to turn the steering faster too.

What I'm suggesting here is to restore levels of adjustments that you could achieve,such as with some OEM or aftermarket shim plates. This would allow drivers to make subtle tweaks to caster to suit the application and their driving. And I definitely do not approve of crazy adjustments such a from 5 degrees to 15 degrees (like in the S1 days).

So in the end, it's not simply a manner of just setting caster to max. It just isn't that simple.

Within the circles I mix most people adjust caster by adding aftermarket eccentric top mounts. I think that's what Michael was referring to when he said you are limited by the amount of camber you run. i.e. set the top mounts to 2 o'clock and you have half max camber and half max caster.

I've never seen these shims - where are they located?

Another way I've seen is to weld in a slotted plate instead as a topmount to give far more adjustability than the solid eccentric topmounts.

Ofcourse this is really the realm of track only cars as solid top mounts of any kind make for a noisy bumpy ride on the road.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

I've never seen these shims - where are they located?

The shims I'm talking about apply to cars with double wishbones up front.

The camber and caster are adjusted by the number and the positioning of the shim plates. For instance, to increase negative camber with no castor change, simply add more shim plates front and back. To increase positive caster, simply add a shim plae to the rear. The whole idea is to move the positioning of the upper wishbone around.

Quote from duke_toaster :

IMO the road cars need less ajustability, not more!

• Remove their gear ratios - just final drive
  
• Force them to open diff or one type
  
• Less suspension tweaks
  
• No in car settings, other than torque split in the RB4

I agree 100%

Quote from Jamexing :

The shims I'm talking about apply to cars with double wishbones up front.

The camber and caster are adjusted by the number and the positioning of the shim plates. For instance, to increase negative camber with no castor change, siimply add more shim plates front and back. To increase positive caster, sinply add a shim plae to the rear. The whole idea is to move the positioning of the upper wishbone around.

OK thx. I guess I could change the caster/camber on my Alfa 156 then. It has -1 degree camber as standard - not sure about caster