Quote from Vykos69 :

I know, you dont like it, if people tell you, on what you should priorise, but I had to put my thoughts done. Get that damn V-Patch out and then finish S2, it's about time...

No Vykos.

Here is where we differ. You think I should do everything now, get S2 finished as quickly as possible. Also I should not even eat, sleep, have a bath, watch TV or go shopping I suppose?

LFS is about Eric and me leaving Lionhead to make the product we wanted to. LFS is the result. And it WORKS! If you like it, use it. If you don't like it, try something else. if you want it to get better, then WAIT. It always gets better.

If there's ONE thing we have proved, it's that our development system works very well and LFS gets better every year. And we do that by working the way we want to work, and being happy (being thankful for the thanks and appreciation that we get, and not letting the frequent attacks get us down). It's not about giving up all that is fun, and putting our nose to the grindstone and acting as Vykos and Kidcodea's slaves that they bought for £24. It's about following our inspiration including ideas from the community and REAL LIFE, and getting it done. There is no time limit. There's no reason to think we are about to fall over and die, and neither are you.

Every year it taken is another year too many. But guess what, things take time. And a lot of people enjoy the journey.

If you and Kid know so much better (as you claim) how to make a racing simulator, then why the **** don't you get off your arse and make your own one?

Just a post to say thanks to the people who have posted and do really understand how it works.

I know that the angry people are just impatient. I thank you for for enjoying the journey as we do.

Below is my personal opinion - I don't think I am a fanboy and I usually (more often than not) take very long breaks from LFS depending on what's going on IRL and I don't play LFS online as much - I usually play offline to relax for an hour or so - so I wouldn't say I'm the oldest most experienced or hardcore simmer who's also got the inside knowledge on the arcane history and prehistory of LFS, but as a (mediocre) software developer I do appreciate the time devoted in making LFS. Also this is not "speaking for Scawen" or "defending Scawen", he doesn't need any of that - it's just my take on what I see:

I see no point in being impatient. There's nothing to gain from it or stating it, especially if it's already been said that "you will get what you've asked for."

Any sort of comment made on the hows and whys of development will eventually and unavoidably end up sounding like orders or bossing around, and I don't recall reading that we're entitled to it in the license agreement.

And honestly now, pause and think - isn't the current rate of development hugely acceptable for the quality provided? It's been 7 months since the last "huge" update. 7 months! Is that such a long time to us? Is what we don't have so detrimental to our enjoyment?

Quote from Scawen :

If you and Kid know so much better (as you claim) how to make a racing simulator, then why the **** don't you get off your arse and make your own one?

Well put!

Totally agree. As much as I would love to see LFS flying through adding loads to the core of the game there needs to be time spent tidying things up and adding the little small features that make LFS, LFS.

Look at nK Pro which seems to have taken the route of working flat out on the very core of the game and adding loads of features but is very very buggy and not very user friendly at all.

I'd rather see LFS gradually build its features up and not go the full bananas as nK Pro has tried and found it's self in financial difficulties with about 2 loyal people trying to defend it as all the new commers try figure out how to actually get the car moving

Well Ive woke up this morning and just read this thread and personally I am absolutely embarassed by some of the things that have been said on here. Please Scawen dont be knocked back by some of these comments (I'm sure you wont). Ive just jumped from U to U29 and so I have seen all the changes at once and what can I say lots of very good little improvements that IMO make LFS more professional. These little changes make a BIG difference and judging by the number of requests Scawen receives he is not the only one who thinks the same either and it is just another step in LFS's life cycle. For example when a race restarts and the sounds now fades away that is a very minor change but everytime I hear it, I think yeah that sounds good.

This game is dynamic and as time goes by will always face new challenges and that is just a fact the people are going to except. This is summed up perfectly by the Vista sound thing.

I can do nothing but admire Scawen's ethos on the development of LFS and 99.99% people on this forum could not get anywhere near what Scawen has done. Remember that the next you are judging or presuming something about LFS.

Long Live LFS!!!!!

Sometimes I also become impatient, and long waiting really annoys. But usually I give a full credit of trust to Scawen. His professional skills are excellent and undoubtable. This is seen in the text documents on LFS, in the open c++ applications made for InSim demo. All the good things that were added to S1 while developing S2, appeared in S2 as well, without problems, eg. skidmarks and smoke. S2 wasn't a ground-up rewrite, I guess it required minimum changes in the modules.

When I sometimes write something in PHP and terribly mess my code, I think "Scawen would never do such clutter in his code".

Though I really wish LFS had some good things of X-Plane.

One thing I really don't like is that quite often a new patch has a guaranteed crash somewhere, as it was with patch R, U28, U29 and some other U*. I just don't dare to download a recently published version (because traffic still costs money for me).

Quote from detail :

One thing I really don't like is that quite often a new patch has a guaranteed crash somewhere, as it was with patch R, U28, U29 and some other U*. I just don't dare to download a recently published version (because traffic still costs money for me).

You're making a small mistake.
All U-patches are called TEST-patches and they have come with all sorts of warnings etc. etc.
Okay, I understand that it's difficult to download and install a patch, start to play and see the program crash somewhere, but hey, that's the whole purpose of bringing out this series of test-patches. Doing it the way it's done at the moment, it creates a very stable V-patch soon, which will be installed by thousands of people, instead of a relative small group. I think that if patch V was uploaded without all these test-patches, LFS got a big blast backwards with all the negative comments. Now Scawen can release patch V in the near futere, knowing it is tested very well and is as stable as possible.

Scawen, I was just wondering if you use a version control tool (like CVS, or RCS) at all, and if this change control tool can generate email messages containing something like "file blah.c just got updated with comment: foobar".

If so, could a mail-list be created that such update messages go to, like they do in open-source software development projects? That way people can subscribe, or even just watch an archive, to see that stuff is going on, and even get an idea of the type of stuff that is going on. It doesn't have to provide any access to the code itself, only show that a file has been updated with a comment when it is submitted to the version control system that may hint as to what changes were made.

Is this viable, or do you think it would create more panicked chatter than worth the hassle?

Quote from Yisc[NL] :

Okay, I understand that it's difficult to download and install a patch, start to play and see the program crash somewhere,

You've completely missed the point:

1) I pay for megabytes of traffic. You all have unlimited ADSL with monthy $20, but here even ADSL users pay for traffic. 3 megabytes here, 10 there, the price is $0,06/mb. It makes a lot of money, taking into account our salaries here.

2) These guaranteed crashes could have been avoided, IMO.

just to say what i think: i love how you are doing the test paches work, all the compatibility fixes, sound engine improvments, and of course the interface polishing, that imho makes the product different from the rest.
keep up the good work!
oh. and i have the patience, i love the game as is, since its an incredible experience for me.

Quote from Montey :

Source code modification timestamp disclosure: Is this viable, or do you think it would create more panicked chatter than worth the hassle?

IMO, that's a bit overboard. It's different in an opensource project and it serves a different purpose as well.

What's next? Will we also ask him to put a mandatory 24/7 webcam on his PC to see WHEN he's working?

I know that's not the point of your post, but take it easy people - Scawen is not our "Little Computer Person" or our reality show. He's let us in to as much of his life as he has and that's enough I think - and yes, the LFS source code is ALSO a part of his life. We're seriously verging the realm of the overpampered client-base here.

Quote from detail :

1) I pay for megabytes of traffic. You all have unlimited ADSL with monthy $20, but here even ADSL users pay for traffic. 3 megabytes here, 10 there, the price is $0,06/mb. It makes a lot of money, taking into account our salaries here.

Off topic, but OUCH! If I paid the same rates our internet bills over the past couple of years would have come to ~$160,000! And I think I'm paying a lot now. Damn.

I understand kid's view and see the points Scawen is trying to make. But imho the problem with latest test patch improvements is that instead of adding nice new features you could kick some stuff out, think a better way of doing it and code it better. In short run, the more time consuming solution, but in long run the much less time onsuming solution. The GUI, menus are quite a mess at the moment. It needs a rehaul instead of adding new flashy features for the 1% who think they really need them. Adding those custom view systems was exactly like that. Imho, a good feature but defenately too high priority given to such small feature when there are things that have been broken or missing since day 1.

I don't like it how the test patch threads get cluttered with improvement suggestions. But what I find surprizing is that some of the suggestions make it into LFS... Tragicomically, the best way to get a small feature implemented is to post it on the test thread

I have always said and thought that the physics is the thing in LFS, the driving force and basis where every brick, feature, gets a good base to build on. Vista support is essential as all this stuff that is done for better compatibility. But physics is the base of LFS, this is what people expect from LFS. I feel pretty confident in saying that if the sound and graphics stayed the same but the physics got 2x better, no one here would complain. The physics are not bad, they are the best of the market but have some holes.

Imho, LFS needs a kick in the groin. LFS should get more aggressive, get some claws and angrier face. LFS should scare away its neighbours, bite the innocent and buttrape the ignorant. Instead of being a pussycat getting patched for a more pleasent ride.

Quote from detail :

1) I pay for megabytes of traffic. You all have unlimited ADSL with monthy $20, but here even ADSL users pay for traffic. 3 megabytes here, 10 there, the price is $0,06/mb. It makes a lot of money, taking into account our salaries here.

2) These guaranteed crashes could have been avoided, IMO.

1) Seems that you have to take a decision on this. Is helping out with the test patches worth the extra 10 cents per download for you? The other option is to only download a patch after there has been some feedback about it.

2) Many software errors can be avoided - but most of the time it's the testers that spot them or experience them and report them. Haven't you ever accidentally screwed up when updating an application you've made?

Quote from xaotik :

We're seriously verging the realm of the overpampered client-base here.

I have to agree with you here

I was shocked reading some of the early posts in this thread dont people realise its the Devs game and they can do with it what they see fit , I feel very honored to be allowed to try these U patches and do my best to spot things that might be called bugs or problems ,thats the whole point of this part of the forum no to critisise in what direction the process is going.

In response to Detail a few posts above, I also pay for bandwith here in the UK not everyone does but I do and none of the U patches have crashed in any way for me , you could choose to not try new patches you know thats no problems, and allways backing up your older version is not hard

I have to say I respect Scawen & co for not allowing some of the negative comments from high profile members to rattle them as it might me, I remember when I had my first child , not an easy time at all lots of changes ect,

Fantistic product great work Scawen, keep it up any way you like

with my full support.

SD.

Well if there is one thing I'm glad to learn in this thread, it's that, considering that patch V is not out yet, and considering the time it will take to code, model and texture those uncompatible features for the patch after V, LFS will not get in the way of any family or friends gatherings this holiday season!

The sad way to see it, is that if we consider the last patch with "meat" added to be the one when the BF1 and single seaters new cockpits arrived, the next patch with "meat" will very likely be around one year later, if not more. And I find it sad because I would have prefered to see new road cars/GTR cockpits instead of the BF1 back when it arrived. I guess I'll start to play LFS more often again when next meat patch comes. Maybe I'll even download test patches again like the good old days!

3 1/2 years ago i discovered LFS and I´m still here. Since i`m still here the Devs must do it right...otherwise i would have gone a long time ago.

LFS still gives me a kick..

I would love to see new cars, tracks, many more improvements but only two guys are working on it, so it will take some times to get what i dreams about - but it will come someday..

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

:static: :static: :static: Scawen Scawen is our man, if he can't do it no-one can! :static: :static: :static:
:laola:

I totally agree with your wise words

Quote from SparkyDave :

I was shocked reading some of the early posts in this thread dont people realise its the Devs game and they can do with it what they see fit...

I have to say I respect Scawen & co for not allowing some of the negative comments from high profile members to rattle them as it might me...

Fantistic product great work Scawen, keep it up any way you like
with my full support.

My thoughts exactly!

Haven't been on S2 or forums in a long while (lifes pretty busy), but still have the odd race on some good gti severs in demo every once in a while. And when I do, I still get a kick out of LFS

SparkyDave good post and I also agree with you. Another analogy is this. You go to the shop and buy a game. That is it, youve bought it and when you install it that is what you get. Lets say you complete this game in three maybe four weeks, not unrealistic I would think. (Note the longevity of LFS, Ive been playing for two years+ and I still love it). Do you then go online and start making posts demanding more content? No I dont think so, so what gives you the right to come here and start berating the developer. You can post things in the improvement suggestions thread and Scawen may then CHOOSE to implement then. Notice the word choose, it is entirely up to Scawen.

It is also up to Scawen the direction that LFS takes and IMO Scawen has done the right thing polishing the finer points of LFS. This will help create a more professional LFS S2 Final.

The simple fact is this, you may think that LFS is aimless and without focus but posting a long post in a test patch thread was not the correct way to do it IMO. Fine if it is what you think make a post but at least show some respect to the developer, who has himself had some life changing events happens in his OWN life.

And if I have still not convinced you think about netkar (drivers republic also seems a bit quiet) and what CAN happen when you get it wrong. LFS is a perfect example of how to do it.

Keep up the good work Scawen and when you go to sleep tonight lie there and smile because you should be one proud dad.

Neil

I like from promise that LFS will be worked on to better, even it may take some time. So I wait, sometimes do race or two when I have time, but I wait to day when I can start working to get my car into game

I'm not in rush, I did pay from S3 first day when devs accepted money, so I have invested and now I just look my investment to grow better. Of course I must say I'm bit surprised how long it takes, but it takes as long as it takes.

10 hours day, hmm, don't do that too long or you find out that you are not getting things done even 5 hours worth, have tried that once in my life, head just won't work that way I found out

Quote from ebola :

You go to the shop and buy a game. That is it, youve bought it and when you install it that is what you get. Lets say you complete this game in three maybe four weeks, not unrealistic I would think. (Note the longevity of LFS, Ive been playing for two years+ and I still love it). Do you then go online and start making posts demanding more content?

That analogy doesn't really work because LFS is aimed squarely at the online player. One cannot 'finish' LFS and move on because LFS does not finish. If you look at other long-running online games, racing or not, no doubt there will be forums with plenty of people whining about updates or lack thereof, imbalances, the works. You could argue henceforth that retail games do have MP, and you'd be right, but you must look at games that are specifically targetting this aspect.

MMORPG's are like this, I don't know of other genres really, but I don't see why the same would not apply to NSMMORS's (not-so-massively-multiplayer-online-racing-simulator).

My understanding of these test patches is that they were / are very very necessary at this stage.

The problem is, that with major patches, the small little requests get missed out. The series of test patches has allowed users and Scawen to sort out the minor important changes which have been forgotten. Such as the improved replay menu, view menu etc. Its no good having major updates with the physics, without first making sure people are happy with how LFS is USED. I am sure the small changes don't take long indivually, so why are people complaining?