Quote from Vykos69 :

/me goes for a spin in his brand new Porsche 911 S4 which he payed with the money he made from LFS....

vykos is a nfs:carbon driver

@Vykos

You're always been the person who says to whiners "it's done when it's done" so is this the day when that 'whiner' "disease" gets into you too?

Let Scawen decide when it's done, it comes when it's done anyway


No hard feelings, just note

Since when did Barbie have a castle? Some sort of agreement out of the Ken divorce?

Quote from tristancliffe :

Since when did Barbie have a castle? Some sort of agreement out of the Ken divorce?

You know, divorce is not going to be cheap

Whilst I can see where vykos et all are coming from, understanding what they want....I agree with scawen about all this, and tbh didn't expect that from you, vykos.
Whilst scawen should (and does) listen to the community about stuff, sometimes things do get 'wrong priority' perhaps, but as has been said, it make sense to do all compatible 'low priority' things first sometimes, leaving more time for higher priority things without getting distracted by 'when can you implement this, i asked ages ago' stuff. Besides, it's their sim not ours, so they could not listen to the community at all (am sure you can think of some sims where that happens...) - we're all very fortunate to have the relationship with the devs that we do, and it's best if we do as much as we can to help them out, rather then constant whining about how we think they should do stuff

Thanks Rob, that is very close to something I was just thinking about. Something we've said before but I forgot this little fact about two different types of criticism.

Type 1) It's great that we get both criticism and praise for certain features that appear in LFS, and requests for changes and new features. This criticism of LFS itself is a very welcome type of constructive criticism that we always consider and take seriously.

Type 2) What's not great is the criticism we get from some people, for our way of doing things, our way of working, by people who don't know better, and who fail to realise that our way of doing things is what got us this far. For some reason, that type of criticism seems to be on a personal level and is very irritating. They are asking us to radically change our actual philosophy of working, which we enjoy and have proven to be effective.

I don't know if I've said that clearly at all. It's something about how annoying it is, to have certain people trying to give us a kick up the ass, when we are already working as hard as possible and following our method of prioritisation that we have already perfected over decades.

The bottom line is: What's going on here keeps Scawen from working on LFS because he has to read, clean up and post in this forum all day. Just let him do his job.

Quote from Scawen :

It's something about how annoying it is, to have certain people trying to give us a kick up the ass, when we are already working as hard as possible and following our method of prioritisation that we have already perfected over decades.

It will never end, you know, the kicks up the ass. People love your product so much that they will need more and more to be satisfied. Some know that I'm anxious too to get new/better stuff in LFS, and that I can hardly wait.. If out of frustration someone (me?) asks you to do things faster, I'd wish you'd understand the reason - love and caring - and not take it too seriously. Don't let it distract you too much, just smile and keep on going like you were planning all along

This post was solely meant to distract our beloved coder and consume his precious little time even more!

I for one, would only criticise a particular feature of LFS which I was not happy with. This is what I would call constructive criticism. But as for criticising how the devs like to work, and what their priorities are, I think is just totally crazy. I mean, do some of you really believe that Scawen for example is going to think: "Hang on, yeah you are right I have been doing this totally the wrong way for all this time, I have my priorities completely wrong." I REALLY don't think so some how. This kind of criticism is certainly NOT what I would want if I was in their position, and it would probably demotivate me, if anything.

Quote from Dom Duhan :

Hey

I hope sc takes lfs onto the next level new gfx engine, new sounds, want 40+ online pls! hopefully the ability to make approved mods and new tracks (this is what i would like anyway:P) approved mods meaning, you supply tools and let people make content, get licenses etc and sell the material.

Lfs has huge potential but will be caned by iracing, it doesnt deserve this:P

cmon sc:P

Hi Dom,

Thanks for posting here. You name a few good points. When the first public demo for LFS was released it had features which were not seen in any other sim: Great netcode, AI that learns by training, finally a sim not using canned physics. Of course it was a first public demo, version 0.04, but if those features were just a sign of things to come...

Looking back, the first release was the best. Maybe someone can help me here, but I can't think of much features added after version 0.04 in which LFS surpasses the other sims in the market. That's exactly what I think Kid and Vykos mean here. It's not about 'when it's done', it more 'what is done'.

For the price I paid for LFS, I sure think it's worth every penny. I think Scawen did a great job programming it. However, as a sim racer for over 8 years, I want to see much more hardcore sim stuff put in. LFS fan base comes from a diverse background. Some have been sim racers for a long time, others came from other games and LFS made them buy a wheel.

I think that's the difference between the opinions here. The Sim racers saw the potential, joined LFS hoping it would materialise. LFS came a long way, but I don't dare to say it cutting-edge. the few features that were are now no longer that, and no new features could ever get close. And that was what I hoped for when I started it.

This does not mean that Scawen must change whatever he does. It's his sim and it's a good one. If he's happy, that's great. I'm happy he took the challenge to create this. It's just, the racers with a sim racing background need one new sim that really beats LFS as a hardcore sim. I'd pay a lot more for that sim than I did for LFS.

This thread shows that too many people here equate owning an LFS licence, using the software and being an active member on this forum to being a part of the develop team with the demands being made here.

Has the NKP farce not shown those making the demands what can happen when devs ignore all the small details.

NKP has a great physics core and huge potential BUT unlike the LFS aand its devs the NKP team did not appear to care about the small details. The community bashed the crap out of it and it flopped. There is new light now BRD have injected some cash but look at the cost. The latest patch that aimed to fix MP issues also removed tire flatspots. The reason they were removed is because the feature caused issues with BRD's hardware. What else will be dropped because the NKP money holders don't like something or the direction of the project?

When you make a demand on the dev team why not THINK about what you are asking?

1) Why worry about Vista now? If you can't understand this then you are very very very short sighted. Vista will be installed on EVERY new PC sold. Yes there are many here, myself included, that will not upgrade BUT I can see why it needs to be sorted and sorted NOW. The RC is out and it goes gold very shortly. To not make sure it works would be VERY stupid of the dev team.

2) Why do we need to do all the "boring" stuff now? As the LFS user base grows then so do all the "boring" issues. As the time taken to deal with support on these "boring" issues grows it slows down the developmeent and time spent on the "fun" stuff. If you have never written software, sold it and then had to support a large user base while trying to add more features you will never understand this.

3) Why can't we get email notes from the source control to get details on progress? There is so much wrong with this request on so many levels. Every sim developer would sign up for the mailing list and get detailed blow by blow details from the source control system. The comments that normally go into source control are NOT for customers, they are for developers so they can trace what has happened to the code base.

It is almost like some people here appear to think the £24 they have spent on their LFS licence has also bought them a place on the dev team and given them a right to say the direction development takes.

Your licence buys you the right to use the software and LFS World. The devs also provide a forum to raise ideas, ease support issues and allow communication. ONLY the dev team gets to see all the emails and support questions that come in, you have NO IDEA what the big picture is.

Wake up and smell the coffee. There are loads of things I would like to see added... Weather, day/night transition, better GFX, fixed AI, hardcore mode etc. Does not mean I "pack a sad" against the dev team though, I understand the software development process as I have worked in it so long and know the "boring" stuff takes more time than you imagine.

Very well said Woz, basically explaining what I was trying to say in more detail. I also think how NKP went was a great example too.

5mn ago, I was going out to have a cigarette, and suddenly all became bright clear .
Tonight, this is full moon

Maybe Copernicus was right ^^

J/K, don't kick my ass, plz

Quote from tristancliffe :

I think Scawen does the right thing in doing these little test patches and improving the overall experience now and again to keep LFS in check and working properly for the majority of the customer base. And when he's done tweaking, refining and adding options, he'll get back to the 'big picture'.
[...]
I'm here for the journey. I've paid my money, and I'm in no rush for the journey to come to an end as long as I get to take in the scenery along the way and appreciate what we've got.

The other thing Scawen could do is do a Kunos, and never visit or talk on his forum again because of a few hurtful comments. Fortunately Scawen is thicker skinned than that. I get the impression that for all the moaning that goes on about delays to S2, silly tweaks and stuff, that Scawen remains his own biggest critic. That is something money can't buy, and will result in a polished, finished product when it's done.

What he said ^^^ but in CAPS. Thanks to the new layout of the options, I've spotted some poor choices of settings in my install, sorted them and gained 10fps. I'd have happily paid £90 for a new graphics card to achieve the same result, so I'm a happy bunny about the current run of test patches and the things they address.

Quote from Krutch :

...as a sim racer for over 8 years, I want to see much more hardcore sim stuff put in. LFS fan base comes from a diverse background. Some have been sim racers for a long time, others came from other games and LFS made them buy a wheel.
[...]
LFS came a long way, but I don't dare to say it cutting-edge.
[...]
It's just, the racers with a sim racing background need one new sim that really beats LFS as a hardcore sim. I'd pay a lot more for that sim than I did for LFS.

LFS is what LFS is, philosophically speaking as well as in terms of sim racing. If it doesn't meet your needs, then go buy.. umm.. go get.. errrr... ahhh. Hmm. We seem to have hit a problem. Frankly, I get a bit irritated when I hear "when x-sim comes out it'll kick LFS's ass!" and shite like that. It's like the fisherman talking about the catch he ALMOST made. IF it happens, THEN when it happens, stand any sim against LFS and if it beats it then it beats it. But please, FFS, no more nkP-style wish and a promise. We've been there and seen that, and some of us got their hopes up.. and look where that got them. NO more vaporware, I'm begging you! Put up or..

Quote from Woz :

This thread shows that too many people here equate owning an LFS licence, using the software and being an active member on this forum to being a part of the develop team with the demands being made here.
[...]
It is almost like some people here appear to think the £24 they have spent on their LFS licence has also bought them a place on the dev team and given them a right to say the direction development takes.
[and a lot of other good sense too]

Good bloke, that Woz bloke.

I can't help feeling that, to a very great extent we've been made privy to a private argument between genuine friends. KiD, Vykos and Scawen are all people for whom LFS means a great deal, both in terms of vested hours and also in terms of affection. I've done my utmost (and now failed) to keep out of this thread because of this.. airing dirty laundry in public is something I've suffered personally, many times, and I'm really sad to see KiD and Vykos actively doing it, and (sorry but) I see some of Scawen's responses are voiced in hurt as a result.

It does nothing for the community to have this episode played out.. but since it has been, I'll put my weight (I've been eating a lot of Jaffa Cakes recently!) behind the "keep doing what you do so well" camp, and I'll be happy.

Quote from SamH :

It does nothing for the community to have this episode played out.. but since it has been, I'll put my weight (I've been eating a lot of Jaffa Cakes recently!) behind the "keep doing what you do so well" camp, and I'll be happy.

Play it again Sam exactly what I think too, my thoughts when I read some of the posts is why weren't these sent as PM's or emails. Did they really have to be aired here in the test patch forum of all places...

And to those that see people who offer praise and a thumbs up as unthinking unintelligent ignorant blind people we see the same as you do and have similar dreams for LFS but at the end of the day realise it is Scawen, Victors and Eric's game and they can develop it as they wish.

They are doing an execllent job as is testament of the numbers of fans they have of LFS even though it can't be brought at the local games shop. But if at the end of the day they develop it for another further three years say and at that time someone else releases a title that eclipses LFS is that a failure? Not in my eyes because I've only paid what I'd normally pay for a regular game (or less) and have had continual support added content and untold hours of fun over that time all for the price of a night out at the movies with my wife

One gets the impression that these feelings and emotions aren't brought about by the decisions the developers make but more likely the prorities people place on being online, playing games and perhaps not doing other things they should be but jokes aside it is just a game or sim or whatever... and is or should be a hobby to pass the time, and not something that rules our entire lives, if it is its not the developers that have a problem its you

While I partially agree with Kids and Vykos'es posts, none of us here can tell the devs what to do and when to do since it is their sim and they have the right to develop it when they want to and how they want to. We are the consumers, they are the devs.

The Vista compatibility fix is definately 100% necessary, it would be plain dumb not to make LFS compatible to an upcoming mainstream OS. That is one thing development time should not be taken from, even though most of us won't propably even touch Vista with less than a 10-foot pole. If Vista wouldn't have full LFS compatibility, how good would that be for sales? Not very.

Why are all the little GUI fiddlings being done now, is what I can not understand. LFS is in the middle of S2 development, little GUI fixes and tweaks that we have in the recent test patches are usually done in the nearly finished beta or release canditate state of games. Even small fixes take time, and as said in this thread before me by others, 1 big fix/tweak is better than 100 small ones.

I wouldn't be too surprised if a couple strong comments like earlier in this thread pop up, when there has been pretty much no news of upcoming features or content. If the devs don't tell the community that there is something better to come, I can easily understand people to get anxious and frustrated.

I posted a little idea in LFS-Torque about how the devs could drop a post or two in an un-official blog that would keep the players aware of what the devs are currently doing and what we might expect to get in the future. A blog that would be completely un-official and have an disclaimer before entering/reading that none of the features or fixes written in the blog would be certain or guaranteed to make in to LFS. That way hype and eagerness would be kept down and everyone would know where the development is going at. Of course it would take a little bit of time to write the actual posts in the blog, but considering how many people it would propably keep happy, isn't it worth it?


Oh, and here's a little smiley so this post isn't all that serious and dull.

*Disclaimer*
Anything written in this post is just my own humble opinion and should not be judged as an negative approach towards anyone.

Quote from Matrixi :

Why are all the little GUI fiddlings being done now, is what I can not understand. LFS is in the middle of S2 development, little GUI fixes and tweaks that we have in the recent test patches are usually done in the nearly finished beta or release canditate state of games. Even small fixes take time, and as said in this thread before me by others, 1 big fix/tweak is better than 100 small ones.

It's one of these things where your MUST go into specifics. Why are "all these things" being done is a pointless question and there is no answer to it. There is a different answer for each item on the list of changes.

[ The rest of the post is not to Matrixi in particular but to the people who think I've spent ages on pointless things... ]

I suggest you copy the list of changes from the test patch thread, into a text document, re-order them so that you can separate the necessary and important (probably 90%) from the other unnecessary (probably 10%). Then assign some times taken to do each of them (you will be wrong in the time estimates, mine are always wildly wrong, but anyway). Then you will probably find that this whole argument here is about a few miniscule features that took 1% of my time for these months. The other 99% was on absolutely vital or at least important changes.

Keep some kind of a sense of proportion. As I keep explaining, spending 10, 20 or 30 minutes on a feature that could possibly be left out, because I feel like doing it, is NOT going to delay S2 by any noticeable amount. It's not your business to attack me for slipping in a few long requested small features which I probably did on the day of a test patch release (after spending six days on vital improvements) and so be able to cross the feature off my list. When I have an hour or two spare and don't want to just sit around pointlessly waiting until the evening release time and am obviously not going to start on a two month project, on a Friday afternoon just before a test patch release.

I don't need to explain this to you, I don't need to answer to you. I'm writing this so you understand how ridiculous it sounds and perhaps you can lay off the generalisations in future. You are welcome to criticise a specific feature, but telling me how I should organise my time, based on your imagination of what time I have free and when, is really not a good idea.

EDIT :

And as I keep explaining, I do what I feel like when I feel like it. That means, if I see an item on a list that I just feel like doing or I stumble across something on my way through the code, I GRAB that opportunity and DO that little feature or CLEAN up that section of code that always needed doing. It's an EXCITING process and one that you, the community, reap the benefits of. If I wrote a priority list and worked from the top down, I would soon be bored and and the tidying wouldn't ever get done. I'd LEAVE. That is what I mean by saying, this is MY WAY OF WORKING.

And now, it's time to close the thread!

I thank you for the comments, all except the pointless ones.

I think all has been said, that should be said.

It's wasted one day and that's enough.