Quote from Breizh :

Ok, CSU, why don't you open up a non profit org to fund Saddam's upkeep?
He can contribute to society neither from his cell, nor in public life, so what's the point in letting him drain public resources?
What non barbaric solution do you have to Saddam's barbaric way of life? What can you do to him that will guarantee he does no further damage to others, that's less barbaric than locking him up? Who are you expecting to fund the continuation of his life as a lock up, and how do you excuse locking him up as any less barbaric than putting him out of his misery?
You probably think putting down rabbid dogs or horses with broken limbs as worse than letting them live as though it was no issue?

Sorry I don't agree
.

What are you so sorry for, besides asserting your indignant feelings have any rational relevance?
Why, if your point of view is so reasonable, can't you articulate it transparently enough that my assertions are clearly refuted?
How is it, that you so vigorously slander me; who is indifferent to Saddam's or anyone else's fate so long as it doesn't affect me, instead of, for example, others who can't help but jeer and explicitly call for further suffering for Saddam, in the form of "due" retribution, like touring him on a balls-kicking world tour, or quartering off his limbs, etc ?

You want to further the burden of Saddam (and his like, apparently) on society, and can't even give a good reason for it, nor a good reason not to effect the solution I propose.
If what you stand for is so Good, then as I said, you should have no trouble justifying it with something more reasonable than insults.

Quote from Breizh :

What are you so sorry for, besides asserting your indignant feelings have any rational relevance?
Why, if your point of view is so reasonable, can't you articulate it transparently enough that my assertions are clearly refuted?
How is it, that you so vigorously slander me; who is indifferent to Saddam's or anyone else's fate so long as it doesn't affect me, instead of, for example, others who can't help but jeer and explicitly call for further suffering for Saddam, in the form of "due" retribution, like touring him on a balls-kicking world tour, or quartering off his limbs, etc ?

You want to further the burden of Saddam (and his like, apparently) on society, and can't even give a good reason for it, nor a good reason not to effect the solution I propose.
If what you stand for is so Good, then as I said, you should have no trouble justifying it with something more reasonable than insults.

If you are so damn concerned about public resorces you pull the trigger you god damned murderer, I would hardly use the term "to out him out of his misery" Its murder, and stop bringing farm animals into a serious adult conversation.

The point is that civilzed humans do not kill each other.
Saddam should remain in prison. An I am not sympathising with him.

If someone is against the death penalty, it does not mean you are siding with the perpetrators of crimes.

I think a lot of us are trying to judge the values and morality of a completely different custom with our own preconceived western ideals. This is why the American policy in Iraq is such a disaaster, they have no empathy for the life of the normal people in these countries.
I leant enough during my years in Saudi to realise how far apart our cultural poles were, and that they cannot be judged on our own values.

Quote from farcar :

The point is that civilzed humans do not kill each other.
Saddam should remain in prison. An I am not sympathising with him.

If someone is against the death penalty, it does not mean you are siding with the perpetrators of crimes.

thank you ..well said
.

I'll be surprised if they didn't want to kill him.

Welcome to the new world order. The reign of unprecedented chaos has only just begun.

Quote from Jamexing :

I'll be surprised if they didn't want to kill him.

Welcome to the new world order. The reign of unprecedented chaos has only just begun.

Thats because we have people like Breizy heading some of our biggest world powers...humanity will never learn and there will always be bad apples.
Btw breizh my religion states I go to Hell if I adopt the views you have.

Quote from CSU1 :

If you are so damn concerned about public resorces you pull the trigger you god damned murderer, I would hardly use the term "to out him out of his misery" Its murder, and stop bringing farm animals into a serious adult conversation.

This isn't foremost about resources, but firstly about the choice to finance Saddam's continuation as a cell-restricted human (and secondly) with other people's money. Why would you want to do that?
Yes it's murder, but that's going in circles, Saddam is a murderer, so what are you going to do about it, short of leeching other people's resources (that they could use for themselves, e.g. pay for their food, or pay their LFS license, or fund their kids' studies) to keep him locked up like an animal?

And answer my other questions, I don't see why you think they're mistaken.

Quote from farcar :

The point is that civilzed humans do not kill each other.
Saddam should remain in prison. An I am not sympathising with him.

If someone is against the death penalty, it does not mean you are siding with the perpetrators of crimes.

No, they don't, but Saddam sure proved you wrong.. unless:

Quote from al heeley :

I think a lot of us are trying to judge the values and morality of a completely different custom with our own preconceived western ideals. This is why the American policy in Iraq is such a disaaster, they have no empathy for the life of the normal people in these countries.
I leant enough during my years in Saudi to realise how far apart our cultural poles were, and that they cannot be judged on our own values.

Maybe Saddam is civilized after all?
The thing about my arguing his verdict and fate isn't about judging him (and do tell how one could not judge anything without having a vacuum in place of one's brain), but wondering how one justifies emprisoning someone as any less barbaric than putting an end to their existence, when said convict has proven they'll just tear things apart remorselessly at the first chance they get.

Quote from Jamexing :

Welcome to the new world order. The reign of unprecedented chaos has only just begun.

What, like Nostradamus predicted?

Quote from CSU1 :

Thats because we have people like Breizy heading some of our biggest world powers...humanity will never learn and there will always be bad apples.

That's right, bad apples. Why keep them in the basket when you can just toss em out?
If I was heading one of the biggest world powers, and this you seem to be unable to realize, e.g. the USA, I wouldn't be in Irak, Afghanistan would be done and over with, and I'd be tending to internal issues like illegal immigration and political corruption, predominantly the erosion of civil liberties such as the right to bear arms.
I've already typed up a brief of my point of view re: how to deal with middle eastern extremism, and you've apparently not absorbed a shred of it.. it's in that other thread if you want to give it a fair evaluation, instead of resuming yourself to your strawmanisms.

Quote :

Btw breizh my religion states I go to Hell if I adopt the views you have.

And the relation of this to Saddam's, or more generaly, a big time convict's fate, from the perspective of the rest of society's well-being, is?
Your religion states that, and so what? Can you justify why? Are you about to argue something religious, as though there was anything rational about religion?

Quote from herki :

(and Breizh)

I wanted to make a general statement, as America is the biggest and probably most sophisticated country still running death penalties, which I consider barbaric, so yes, in that point I'm part of the America==barbaric-bandwagon.
Sorry if it seemed I wanted to blame everything related to the Saddam Hussein-case on America, I seem to have used the wrong terms

Aw no worries. I misunderstood you the first time. I thought you meant Americans sentenced him to hang. Sometimes a lot of American bashing goes on here and people make blanket statements assuming all Americans are one way or another. I assure you I don't agree with the death penalty or any type of violence... hmm is wall crashing violence?

~*~*~*~tinyk~*~*~*~

Quote from Breizh :

This isn't foremost about resources, but firstly about the choice to finance Saddam's continuation as a cell-restricted human (and secondly) with other people's money. Why would you want to do that?
Yes it's murder, but that's going in circles, Saddam is a murderer, so what are you going to do about it, short of leeching other people's resources (that they could use for themselves, e.g. pay for their food, or pay their LFS license, or fund their kids' studies) to keep him locked up like an animal?

And answer my other questions, I don't see why you think they're mistaken.



No, they don't, but Saddam sure proved you wrong.. unless:

Maybe Saddam is civilized after all?
The thing about my arguing his verdict and fate isn't about judging him (and do tell how one could not judge anything without having a vacuum in place of one's brain), but wondering how one justifies emprisoning someone as any less barbaric than putting an end to their existence, when said convict has proven they'll just tear things apart remorselessly at the first chance they get.


What, like Nostradamus predicted?

Breizh I am now getting tired of trying to explain to you how wrong your views on human life' are.
You seem to me like a very violent person who's only concerns in life are money(Public resorces), and getting rid of problems Mafia style.
Its not a personal attack breizh but there are "civilised" people on this planet 'thank God, who say murder is wrong, and if you mention "public resorces" again ! ffs noone cares how much mr.x costs to keep in prison
because we just don't want them in society commiting crimes, but if you where in charge of prisons I guess you would just knock them off like Hitler?
Have you ever read the Bible Breizh?..guess not..btw your avetar say's you are

Money and power are the only universal languages humanity understands, and history proves it consistantly so.

Welcome to the real world, where only might is right. All else is irrelevant.

disclaimer: The above statements do NOT reflect my personal principles. They're merely observations.

Quote from Becky Rose :

We still have hanging in the UK, it is the penalty for treason although politically it would be hard to sentence somebody to it. If he had been tried over here we would have given him a passport, a house, a Renault Espace and an activity holiday to help integrate him back into society. At worse he'd have had a tag on his foot for 30 days which, if he broke the terms of his parole, would have been ignored.

Lets not forget the mobile phone, with unlimited calls, and a suit for him to obtain a job, which our apathetic country would've given him.

Quote from al heeley :

I think a lot of us are trying to judge the values and morality of a completely different custom with our own preconceived western ideals. This is why the American policy in Iraq is such a disaaster, they have no empathy for the life of the normal people in these countries.
I leant enough during my years in Saudi to realise how far apart our cultural poles were, and that they cannot be judged on our own values.

Agreed, unfortunately people will always rely on past experiences in order to form their opinions It's just the way we work at our current level of evolution.

Quote from al heeley :

I think a lot of us are trying to judge the values and morality of a completely different custom with our own preconceived western ideals. This is why the American policy in Iraq is such a disaaster, they have no empathy for the life of the normal people in these countries.
I leant enough during my years in Saudi to realise how far apart our cultural poles were, and that they cannot be judged on our own values.

Actually, this is all TOO real. The west DOES have a nasty habit of saying my way is the only way, every other way is wrong by default.

Quote from CSU1 :

Breizh I am now getting tired of trying to tell you wrong your views on human life are.

That's because you're realizing you are unable to precisely and concisely refute what I've argued. In addition to that you may be getting hints that you don't even really know what the whole of my "view on human life" is, but only extrapolated it from your biased perceptions of my comments on just a very specific case of my "view on human life".

Quote :

You seem to me like a very violent person who's only concerns in life are money(Public resorces), and getting rid of problems Mafia style.

"Seems" being the key word. If you'd just appreciate what I've said without reading so much between the lines, you'd see that's not the case.
As I said before, but you've conveniently ignored, I think it's aberrant that you pick me instead of others who "judge" it good to feel they've a right to have a go at personally inflicting their own recipe of punishment on Saddam.
Now tell me, what else can you reasonably argue, but material reality? That's breizh-speak for "resources".

Quote :

Its not a personal attack breizh but there are "civilised" people on this planet 'thank God, who say murder is wrong, and if you mention "public resorces" again ! ffs noone cares how much mr.x costs to keep in prison
because we just don't want them in society commiting crimes, but if you where in charge of prisons I guess you would just knock them off like Hitler?
Have you ever read the Bible Breizh?..guess not..btw your avetar say's you are

That's funny, maybe I oughta "judge" the bible by its cover the way you "judge" me by my .gif avatar (copyright Don Hertzfeldt, a heinous comic strip illustrator) on this particular forum. How about I change avatar? Would that be enough of a clue that what you perceive is no guarantee of anything about the author of the post?
And yes, some people do care about the money that'll go to Mister Saddam, because that money could be used to furnish kindergartens (for example) instead. Those people sound like Hitler to you?

You're still so convinced I'm wrong, and still can't come up with a reason. I'm all ears. Why, specifically, are the reasons I've posted wrong? If they're all so wrong in unison that you resonate with disapproval so much, you oughta be able to articulate clear reasons for all of them, easily.

Anyway, I don't take any decisions without a clear good reason to do so. Until then, I'll debate the issue at hand to pieces until no doubt remains, which to you equates to violent and inhumane behavior.
Were I the fledgling Hitler you fancy to imagine so much, I'd just shut my american mouth up, and tell you any one of an endless anti-euro, or anti-[your flavor here] rant to justify my close-mindedness towards ya.
Ok?

Quote from the_angry_angel :

Lets not forget the mobile phone, with unlimited calls, and a suit for him to obtain a job, which our apathetic country would've given him.

Agreed, unfortunately people will always rely on past experiences in order to form their opinions It's just the way we work at our current level of evolution.

Exactly, and maybe some day humanity will evolve to realise killing people in our courts of law is not the way forward.

Quote from Breizh :

Ok, CSU, why don't you open up a non profit org to fund Saddam's upkeep?
He can contribute to society neither from his cell, nor in public life, so what's the point in letting him drain public resources?
What non barbaric solution do you have to Saddam's barbaric way of life? What can you do to him that will guarantee he does no further damage to others, that's less barbaric than locking him up? Who are you expecting to fund the continuation of his life as a lock up, and how do you excuse locking him up as any less barbaric than putting him out of his misery?
You probably think putting down rabbid dogs or horses with broken limbs as worse than letting them live as though it was no issue?

Here Here!
the man is getting what he deserves.
the thousands of lives he destroyed through his brutal dictatorship can't be brought back, but they can be avenged by his execution (not murder).
he ruled by using fear, the same way a bully operates. i was always told to stand up to a bully as its what they dislike.
for what its worth, i agree that the uk an us should have removed him from power. i dont agree with the way they have tried to create a free socity there, but i cant knock them for trying.
to all those anti-war protesters.....where was your voice when iraq invaded kuwait. if you had protested in iraq you would have vanished from the streets, taken by the ruthless baath party and tortured and killed.
remember, at least here you have the opportunity to express your opinion.

Uh, to the German Dude... We don't hang people here anymore, we inject them.

AS far as how bad and savage capital punishment is considered...
I know of at least two people that would still be alive today if they executed my uncle for the first murder he committed. instead because of "prison reform" he's not only not on death row, but on the streets in a halfway house somewhere in Texas. WE think he took out as many as 6 or 7 people thru
robberies, dope deals or conflicts within his prison gang.

Didn't saddam and his sons like to thow people into plastic shredders?
hmmm.........

Quote from mr grady :

the thousands of lives he destroyed through his brutal dictatorship can't be brought back, but they can be avenged by his execution (not murder).

Now, where did I say that? If you're going to argue, at least pretend to weigh what others say for what they mean, using clues such as the contents of their comments. [edit: not sure you're paraphrasing what I said, or giving your own opinion here]
I mean, I'm not saying what happens to him today will change what he's done, or anything else that's happened in the past. The dead he's caused cannot be undone, as those RacerY tells about found out.

Breizh, i was agreeing with you 100%, my other comments were my own, not knocking what you poster. sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

The essence of so-called war prosperity; it enriches some by what it takes from others. It is not rising wealth but a shifting of wealth and income.

~Ludwig von Mises
There you go Breizh, there's your "Funds" to keep him in jail.

just burn the pr*ck alive

Quote from 11SuLLy11 :

just burn the pr*ck alive

:doh: