Quote from vpr01 :

MS aint that good a driver in comparison to others (like Kimi) to be fair. It's was his car, and always has been - which was pretty evident this season from ferarri's piss poor performance.

Not that I'm saying hes bad, cos hes definately one of the best, but I wouldnt say miles above the rest like most people seem to think.

Button - theres one to look out for next season

Make your mind up. I hate hearing all these anti-schumacher clowns that try and knock michael all the time when he is obviously one of the best drivers in f1 history. Since he has been at ferrari he has come close to winning numerous championships in an insuperior car. (As well as winning 5 in a row)

So you are saying these other drivers are not good?

As a comparison let's look at Renault this year. Alosno has won the driver's championship, but his team mate, Fisi, has done much worse throughout the entire season in similar equipment. So Alonso winning the Championship, was that just because he had the best car (like Fisi did)? Or does young Fernando have something that others lack? I'd hate people to think Alonso only won due to his car, especially since he raced with such skill, determination and guts all year, as he did last year, as he did even when he was with Minardi... the slowest car.

If Alonso goes on to win multiple world championships will he become the new Schumacher, ridiculed for his outstanding success?

I remember watching Michael battle with the likes of Senna, Prost, Mansell and being amazed at his ability and understanding of any given race.

When Senna was failing due to a poor car did anybody decide all of a sudden that he only ever won because of the machine under him? No, he was different, outstanding despite his equipment, not unlike Michael.

How many championships did Sterling Moss win? One of the best drivers of all time.

Can I just add to my post above on driver ratings. This takes into account the fact that the drivers ARE world class drivers with a huge amount of skill (even the relatively rubbish ones).

Sato: Should not be in F1. Should remain in GP2 for the rest of his career. Not quick, intelligent, cool, or safe.
Montoya: Should not be in F1. Should remain in (the American equivalent of) GP2 for the rest of his career. Not intelligent, cool, or safe. Schumi, Kimi, Alonso etc would not have put themselves in the position to be punted off by backmarkers, or where Villeneuve had no chance of seeing him

I rate these two as by far the worst overall drivers in F1 right now. Leave, and let someone else have a play. At least Villeneuve, who was terrible at the start of the year, made an effort to improve...

Quote from tristancliffe :

Sato: Should not be in F1. Should remain in GP2 for the rest of his career. Not quick, intelligent, cool, or safe.
Montoya: Should not be in F1. Should remain in (the American equivalent of) GP2 for the rest of his career. Not intelligent, cool, or safe. Schumi, Kimi, Alonso etc would not have put themselves in the position to be punted off by backmarkers, or where Villeneuve had no chance of seeing him

Why did Villeneuve have no chance of seeing him? He had mirrors, didn't he? JV had a slow exit from the chicane because he missed it...he should have been expecting people to pass him. These are racing drivers. That means they race, not sit behind people because it might possibly be a bit risky. Unless you're Rubens Barrichello, of course...
You may well be right about the incident in Turkey but from what I heard about the Spa incident, Pizzonia came from nowhere and took him out.

Have you seen an F1 mirror? They are tiny, and wheels/wings etc get in the way. I doubt Villeneuve would expect anyone to go round the outside there. Couldn't he have waited 3 seconds, and used the McLarens superior speed to overtake safely? Not Montoya.

As for Pizzonia incident. Montoya is cruising to the finish. His team must have been aware Pizzonia was faster at that stage. Do you really think Kimi/Alonso/Schumi Snr would have crashed into Pizzonia? I think not. They are world champions (or will be). Montoya will never will the Championship.

Quote from vpr01 :

Button - theres one to look out for next season

Well we'll be hearing of him (over and over and over again) until the hype bubble blows thanks to his dad/agent/whoever. He's fast (sometimes - usually when BAR was cheating) but just doesn't have that "magic" you can feel when watching an in-car of Raikkonen for exaple (watching him trying different approaches and lines when attempting to overtake MS was impressive).

Honda have invested in Button for the next 5 years I believe, and Honda are not playing around, they want to take him to the world championship.
I honestly think Sato just tries too hard to make up for past shortcomings and I fear his days are numbered.

As for shunting and punting, they all do it or have done it at some time. With experience it happens less, if they manage to keep their drive (and their career) for that long.

Barrichello, (remember the guy who piloted the Stewart through the pouring rain in Monaco to a historic 3rd place amongst a classier field?) we must remember he was contracted as number 2 driver for Ferrari and that's the role he agreed to play. I imagine he would be a bit sour these past few races, it would be good to see the old Barrichello back again in a new car.

Montoya still doesn't seem happy and I have never felt that he was comfortable in his job at F1, but he can drive despite his apparent attitude towards others.

Kimi only knows one way to drive - Flat Out He is still inexperienced and will be formidable when he learns to pace his car better, this guy will be a real force if he stays in F1. Relatively inexperienced before F1, he has risen fast and has great potential.

Alonso. Well some gutsy driving in Japan but I had visions of the Monaco Tunnel in 2004 when he braved an outside pass and hit the marbles ... then the wall. Great skill, but look after your life young Alonso!

Webber. Ho hum, nothing much to say. Pull your finger out lad or you'll be driving taxis by 2007. Needs experience yet but perhaps a fast Williams (on Bridgestones!) will save the day.

Some new teams next year, lots of new money and the inevitable plethora of new rules. Every year the FIA tries to slow the cars down and every year the measures fail to do the trick. Cosworth have a good engine apparently and we know Ferrari have been developing their V8 fervently. Toyota are beginning to shine, Honda money will be there for the new Team Honda, Red Bull money in two teams.... man this is going to be interesting. Hard to pick next year's flavour.

my point about schumacher was clearly taken the wrong way. i said he was one of the best, but i guess what i was trying to get at was that he's lost a lot of his drive and motivation or seems to have. either that or the car really is that bad this year, but i cant see that being the main reason.

with regard to jenson, he has the pace and the hunger for victory. he just hasnt had the car to do it yet. what with BAR penalised early season 2005 and having reliability issues etc in previous years, its no wonder he hasnt won a race yet. 2004 was probably his best, when he was on the podium quite regularly. i hope honda give him the team and reliability he needs.

anyway, i woulda said mansell was better than MS :P

Ehm, tristancliffe talks like estonian live commentators.

They think that:

If the driver don`t go pit very early, then the driver is moving with fuel vapor

If the driver is tryng to pass someone, then he is showing himself in the guy he is tryng to pass mirrors.

And so on....

I think M Schumacher is a fast driver, but he has no skill of fair play or fair passing. Every time someone is trying to pass him, he uses every dirty trick to not make it happen (change line all the time, force you off the track...or hit you with the intentions to damage your car). Ask Damon Hill about it . And have you seen him do any good passes. The only way he passes people is during pit stops

Sorry, not meant to make you Schumi-fans feel bad, just my objective opinion about him. No matter how much I dislike the man, he still is multi-times world champion, which any of the other drivers aren't.

Offtopic:
I just can't believe the McLaren can't make their engines last for 2 races. Even the minardis do better. And the BMW has lost it totally...

Quote from Hyperactive :

I think M Schumacher is a fast driver, but he has no skill of fair play or fair passing. Every time someone is trying to pass him, he uses every dirty trick to not make it happen (change line all the time, force you off the track...or hit you with the intentions to damage your car). Ask Damon Hill about it . And have you seen him do any good passes. The only way he passes people is during pit stops

Err, there are strict rules and if he broke them he was penalised. What you are seeing is defensive driving, not dirty tricks.

And on Sunday he was as fair as a fair thing on National Fair day, so you can't really say he's all evil etc

I like him too, but he will not live long if he insists on overtaking on the dirty part of the outside of high speed corners.

Alonso:
Last year = learning year.

This year = applying year - only one mistake really.

Montoya
Last Year = Noob

This Year = Noob

All subsequent years = Noob

Sato = Montoya.

Quote from Gunn :

Err, there are strict rules and if he broke them he was penalised. What you are seeing is defensive driving, not dirty tricks.

Well everytime someone gets side by side to him on a corner he tries to force the other one off the road. Was it Ralf in Imola last year and...

Quote from tristancliffe :

And on Sunday he was as fair as a fair thing on National Fair day, so you can't really say he's all evil etc

He's plain evil and that's it

Note that Ferrari has been [re-]built around Schumacher. And who says that Raikkonen would be able to have Ferrari built around him in the same way? I doubt that Ferrari with the absence of Schumacher will be as much of a formidable force as they have been in recent history.

:iagree:

Expanding on what I said, don't get me wrong, Raikkonen is an amazingly talented driver, but is he a "team manager" or a point of team motivation like Schumacher is? I'm not sure he is.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Well everytime someone gets side by side to him on a corner he tries to force the other one off the road. Was it Ralf in Imola last year and...

these lads are on the track fighting for their racing careers, and its the simple law of physics that if they commit to a corner they just slow down.

if he drove like a pussy he wouldnt win anything

and to be honest, these guys just dont let people pass like LFS drivers do.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Alonso:
Last year = learning year.

This year = applying year - only one mistake really.

Montoya
Last Year = Noob

This Year = Noob

All subsequent years = Noob

Sato = Montoya.

I disagree, and I think if McLaren sorts out the reliability issues but keeps the speed advantage, then the only reason Montoya will never be world champion, is Kimi.

You can't win the Champcar title by accident, he obviously is a winner and not a "Noob" -god I hate that "word"
Standards are high in F1, and not everyone can win the title, maybe he won't ever win it, but I wouldn't rule him out, he's good enough to beat Kimi fair and square on occasion.

:iagree:

Quote from sinbad :

I disagree, and I think if McLaren sorts out the reliability issues but keeps the speed advantage, then the only reason Montoya will never be world champion, is Kimi.

You can't win the Champcar title by accident, he obviously is a winner and not a "Noob" -god I hate that "word"
Standards are high in F1, and not everyone can win the title, maybe he won't ever win it, but I wouldn't rule him out, he's good enough to beat Kimi fair and square on occasion.

Montoya's fast, but far too inconsistant to hope to finish enough races to win the title.

And gets involved in silly accidents as well as making unforced (or just slightly forced) errors!!

Quote from tristancliffe :

And gets involved in silly accidents as well as making unforced (or just slightly forced) errors!!

Well, maybe I'll eat my words, but I like Monty, have done ever since I first saw him in F3000. He's talented without a doubt, passionate and aggressive, with an occasionally "all or nothing" attitude that wins (and loses) titles, and is why Kimi kept going in the last lap at the Nurburgring, he has it too.

I do think JPM could win the title, and will certainly contend for it if his car is good enough next year. He, of course, may never win it, but with Kimi and Alonso on the scene who else will? Button? Klien? Webber? Maybe play-it-safe-Fisichella