No, Doorman, the French are not half pissed because while the English bred calves and sheep, the French (better, the Normans) ate veal and mutton, so they half pissed in the genetic pool of the English language. The evolution of English language is very complex, and dominations are a part of it.
As for English being so widely adopted, well, similar thoughts spring to my mind. I accept the usage of English as a universal, all-purpose language, I'm not against it, but the political and historical reasons behind its rise shouldn't be forgotten.
I guess you already knew this but in Finland you start learning english on 3rd class and it keeps going until 9th class. Within those 7 years you can't not help learning something. And to the "most english" country in Europe, I agree though I hate it at the same time. People use english names in their shop names, give english-alike names to their children and as a result we see english names and labels on stuff that could be better written in finnish.
Sometimes the english names are just funny but what can you do
Would you go into K-market instead of Lähikauppa, or buy your cellphone at Telia shop instead of Musta Pörssi if you were in Finland? I bet there isn't even one chinese restaurant in Finland which has a finnish name. [/rant]
English is my second language after computer programming, but it does seem to come naturally - but I do live in England so even though I rarely speak to anyone (too reserved) when I do, it's in English...
Yes, maybe banned is too strong word, it will happen in future that you have to communicate with english, as there is not so much of different countries inside EU but more like states. I don't know how long it takes, but it has gone towards that direction and it will keep going, hundreds of years it will take, but eventually it will happen and I don't see it bad thing as then there would be less tension.
We had first villages, then we get towns, after that we get countries, now we are having things like EU, in future there will hopefully be world with one people and peace, takes time, but direction is towards that. However there will be big fights before that and we can see some little fights at news from world, but eventually there will be one common language.
Of course nobody of us lives so long and nobody of us can't do anything about it, but I don't see point sticking in own learned language or culture too much, it is like religion, only to cause fights, wars and stuff like that.
I do know Orwells work and I see that we are already in that world, we have word terrorism that opens access to monitor everything from individuals bank account to recording all phones, we have cameras everywhere and all tapes are gathered and checked if individual ends up to terrorist list of goverments, of course not everything is as controlled or at least we still have bit of illusion left that everything is not so controlled.
never gonna happen europeans take way too much pride in being different from everybody else on the continent and in having their own language ... especially the french who are proud of their country for reasons which are beyond me (and everybody else for that matter )
Well, problem is that if they don't go that way, there will be trouble, lot of trouble as even France is too small alone in future and current system is too heavy and expensive to keep running for 500 years or so.
Well, luckily our teachers here are so belevolent that they actually do teach grammar alot more than speaking english. I've been "learning" english in school for 8 years now. "Learning" because I never do my homework, specially in English. I think most of my english skills have came from movies and internet. That pretty much sums it up i think. Oh and English has always been an easy language for me to learn, i have no idea why though.
JTbo, chances are you don't understand my analysis, or that I'm unable to understand your synthesis.
Paraphrasing Shakespeare, maybe you say simple things that I miscall simplicity. You know, my crystal ball went to pieces a long, long time ago, so I'm unable to predict the future of the human race, no matter how close or far. So I'll leave speculations to you, while I'll limit myself to the things I already know and the things that I can study and observe. But if you think that "sticking in own learned language or culture too much, it is like religion, only to cause fights, wars and stuff like that" you should warn the European Union that some treaties pose a great danger for humanity.
I don't advocate the re-learning of dead languages to preserve them, but advocating legislative measures to crush cultural differences is much more dangerous for humanity than defending some kind of legacy, especially when this defense doesn't harm different cultures.
Oh and i forgot to say that i usually have to translate my thoughts into estonian not the other way around...it was weird at first but now i can't even notice it anymore. Maybe some of the estonians i have been chating with on msn have noticed that my sentences in estonian are quite broken...
Yes, well problem is that as we have seen in past and in current world, people don't accept anything different too well, so as people is sticking to their own ways and other people are sticking to their own ways that creates easily a conflict, logical conclusion is to remove elements that will cause this.
Of course if we judge by feelings, that is wrong and 'oh my god, how can you say that' factor is coming to game, but based only to logic and reason those are very good solutions. Unfortainly many people are judging things based on their feelings and social pressure.
Also it is good to have different cultures, religions and such, helps with tourism, but as we have so different ways and language that is making lot of conflicts, either people have to learn to accept other ways or everyone should be same way, if goal is to reach working world without conflicts. I doubt that people will ever learn to accept other people's ways as they accept their own ways, so logical conclusion is unfortainly that there should be only one way.
However we are in luck as we live in world where is lot of different cultures and we don't need to care what will happen in future too much at least.
As i was told by my english teacher at school - It is really only now that english is becoming its own language. As in the past we were invaded so many times causing the language to change that it is only know that it has 'settled' to a constant language.
I get why english spread as we invaded america so that gave english to the americans. We turned australia into a penal colony and so english to the aussies (thats also why the australian accent isn't too far removed from cokney accents)
It is strange though how it has been adopted by many people to use english for things. It does seem to have become the international language.
As tristan said though - native english speakers are usually the worst at english lol.
Personally i cant speak, read or write any other language - I learnt french while at school but that was 4 years ago and i cant remember any of it.
I think for learning languages you need to be exposed to that language otherwise fluency disappears.
People don't accept anything different too well, you say. I'm happy to inform you that I'm a supporter of multiculturalism, and my ideas are based on logical assumptions and not on feelings or social pressure. Perhaps living in a region with four different official languages (including Friulian) helps. Perhaps I've been lucky enough to live in a place where so many different cultures meet, because I've been able to understand and appreciate different points of view. I think you're confusing senseless chauvinistic positions with the appreciation of multiculturalism. Please don't confuse issues and positions, my defense of language diversity is an extreme and cheerful appreciation of diversity, while your ideas of a single, universal language are there for presumed practical reasons, but to me they sound like an unpleasant and unmotivated call for orthodoxy. Luckily such ideas are generally resisted from both left and right, because opinional and cultural differences are valued as resources in democratic societies. And no, it isn't related to feelings and social pressure. It's related to human evolution.
I see now, as you have experience with multicultural enviroment what you have seen and experienced is naturally different from mine, there is some areas indeed where is very good multicultural balance, but those are quite small amount of people that can enjoy this.
For example this town where I live, one person started barbershop nobody comes even she is really good and prices are ok, but her roots are at India and so in many people's mind she is different and they won't go there because of this.
This is of course very small amount of people, but now we can look United States and how Arabs are not treated well anymore there, because few individuals people spot different looks and ways.
You are right that it is because of evolution, avoiding disease was one reason that lead evolution of such precation that still guides many of us.
Also I agree that single culture and language is very unpleasant, however it is one possible way that may be where world is going to, reason why I would like to see only one language is of course because of practicality, but it surely is not nice, pleasant or rich.
I'm afraid also that democracy is not going to last forever, that surely can't be ultimate final solution, don't know what will come in future, but democracy is not going to last forever, however I hope it will last next 90 years
Best thing would be small universal translator and people that accept different ways and looks etc. However this is last thing to happen, imo. I might be 'bit' pessimistic too, but at least my life and my window to world has shown that there is not too much positive happening in these aspects.
Of course I can't quite well translate my thoughts to this text as it is not possible even with my mother language, just too complicated, would take months to work out whole picture how I see it, that is problem of my head
Anyway this is quite far offtopic and I think we can safely agree to disagree on some aspects of life and future?
Something isn't working here. Too much, for me. So I'll take the easy way out.
Previously you wrote:
I would be very pleased if all languages except english would be banned from world, then everyone could understand everyone, I think that in future this may happen to some degree, but I'm afraid it is not something that some goverments will just look from side.
And now you write:
Also I agree that single culture and language is very unpleasant, however it is one possible way that may be where world is going to, reason why I would like to see only one language is of course because of practicality, but it surely is not nice, pleasant or rich.
Since you disagree with yourself, I beg to differ. I won't disagree any longer, because I don't know what your opinion really is. If you know, let me know. Or better yet, let yourself know.
As I wrote it is complicated, very complicated indeed.
I agree with both statements, really, it would be very pleasant to have single language so everyone could communicate perfectly and I think then there would be much less conflicts, but I also agree that it is not very pleasant to have same things everywhere, you travel to spain and everything is same as at your home, not very nice at all.
I don't like to look things from one point, so there is always many opinions to single thing, as I'm looking from many different aspects, if I estimate average, then it is going to be single language, but still I feel it is not nice and is unpleasant, but that would be pleasant as it would remove so much bad things, hmm, I guess nobody can't figure that out still
Yes, hmm, I think it would require really really long time to put it out so that everyone would understand, time that I have not given enough, clock is missing another 24 hours
How would that remove much of the conflicts, we can fight in english too, see the LFS vs. X threads for example. Some people, I've noticed that lot of finnish people, are just intolerant for foreigners. Racism is just one thing I can't understand, how people can believe in all those stereotypes is ridiculous. It wouldn't remove war, and it would make the world a very gray place if we all were the same.
When you have same language everywhere you would not have so much to fight from, also much less understanding and perhaps more easily people will understand that they are all in same boat. Maybe also more people will look into other cultures and try to understand different ways of life as there is bridge (language).
What you say about finnish people is so true, it is incredible how some people think erm well can't say that they are actually thinking at all.
You are right that's really stupid but we are not the worst, look in France, Italy or Spain........
But anyway, the good think is that when you speak good English you have better chance to get a job
To the topic:
I did have English 5 year's in school but I sucked
Then I moved 4 years ago to France without speaking a word French, so I started to see more English speaking people. I speak every second day English and when I watch TV or a movie I watch it in English. How good I'm I can't say, that's up to the native speakers
The forum here is good cause normally I speak more English when writing so I do now improve in this part as well
As I told you, I can't explain how I see this such way that others could understand correctly as it would take too long if even possible.
You are now thinking way too simple way, there is much more into it but if you think directly from A to B you can come up with that conclusion you wrote there (Also called sarcasm).
It is because my lack of skill to express my thoughts in such way that others could understand what is behind them, so we can't come to any conclusion or understanding of this subject I'm afraid.
It is really frustrating, I can think 3 thoughts at same time, but I can't express even single thought properly, my bless and curse
I'm not communicating in english in real life, I only read books (be it for fun or uni). As most here I learned it at school but what really teached me were movies, web sites, etc.
Anyway, regarding the "what will happen"-discussion:
I don't know how it is in Italy or Finland, or wherever, but here in Germany it is obvious that more and more english words find their way into German. If it continues like that German _will_ be an english dialect in like 100 years.. (We're also abandoning more and more grammar rules i.e. the genitive).
Actually, if you had a german-english dictionary that would work "as people speek", half the entries would have to be "english word - some german words, the english word".
I doubt however, that the languages will ever be identical, more like dialects, as I already said. The Italians would still say "Luigi, where-a is-a my-a pizza?", the Germans would all talk like Schwarzenegger, etc..
I studied historical linguistics at the University, so my point of view, apart from the occasional humour from time to time, is motivated by some of the books I read. I don't pretend to be a scholar, I dropped out of University because of familiar reasons, but I still remember the lessons of the late professor Gusmani. I'm not interested in pointing out all the flaws in your geopolitical and linguistical deductions. To me (and to some other people) they are self-evident. But as long as you don't have a clear and complex (and not complicated) picture of how languages evolve, chances are you won't be able to understand why your ideas, which you call complicated, are so simplistic to me.
Sorry to say but you did miss the point again completely, but it is really my fault as I can't express myself enough clearly. It is not about my ideas being something as simple as one language to whole world that really is only one possible sidetrack that is one possible result of some ideas.
Base is how human beings act and work, from there starts thinking, analyzing of different situations, models of behaviour to certain situations etc. Practically idea is simulating, consumers, business, goverments etc etc.
That is same method as I'm using to work with other people, I gather information analyse, evaluate different acts reactions etc. I have to think that way, because I miss emotional intelligence, I got only mathematical part, but it works rather well, can predict pretty much of actions of other people, but it is not too easy.
I doubt that anyone can understand this (because my explanations sucks), or if anyone cares actually, but that is very light peek why I did say that it was too simple thinking.
Evolution of languages certainly can't be much to do how people act and react or can it? I mean that language does not define behaviour alone, but language can help to guide behaviour and general understanding as there is no language walls that cause weird stereotypical thoughts about others.
You can disagree, but so can I and I really doubt that we really can agree
But this is only one subject and disagreeing in one thing does not mean that we could not agree on some other things, like for example that lfs provide good online racing :P
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