Quote from kurent :

I sometimes drift when my tyres are too hot.
In those situations drifting skills come in handy. And I believe that is how it started in Japan with those sharp corners on cliffs. People lost control on wet roads and quickly learned how to gain control.

HA! My buddy was drifting without knowing as such in Wisconsin....in 1992. He just wanted to go as fast as possible down a hilly road, and thats where we raced others. For all the drift fans, take Initial D with a grain of salt, PLEASE. I am huge fan of the series (magna and anime) and I love watching drifting, but you cant force others to respect you. I have read some pretty childish remarks from both sides, and as such, you dont win any points from doing so. Everything has a place, and servers who want to host drifting, I say more power to you, and vice versa. By the way, want to guess what my friend drove?


1983 Oldsmobile Cutlass with a 1972 455 c.i. V8. Cut springs, nothing more. Its all in the driver.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Yeah I think it was '95. They only won it because they had a badass (Canadian) goalie.

Indeed... "Martin Brodeur". Still a pretty good goalie. But that series / game was SOOOOoo boring. I am glad hockey is not like that anymore (style was called "the trap", and was a sleeper to watch. Because it worked, they changed the rules because people were getting fed up)

Quote :

I tried to visit Quebec once and they wouldn't let me in! After various seemingly-strange-but-presumably-loaded questions, the border guard asked me (for about the fifth time) "So why do you want to visit Canada?", and I said "Why do you keep asking me that? Does it really suck?" and they made me go back to the USA.

ROFL, did you seriously say that? Sounds like an embellishment... But knowing you (at least on here); perhaps not. You should've tried to come to Alberta or British Columbia (see? British - you'd fit in!). Especially BC. They'd ask you:
"So... Whatcha doin here?"
you'd say "Nothin..."
they'd say "Excellent, just like us... enjoy your stay, make sure you have doobies though. OR 10. If not, come back... We've got a stash (shh, don't say anything)".



Just to keep this sort of on-topic....
What the heck is going on here?
I don't think all LFSers dislike drifting PER SE. Some do, so what. It's been said countless times that it's the attitude that sucks. Perhaps the drift scene attracts more individuals who are ignorant of physics and common sense, but that doesn't mean the sport is poopoo. Matter of fact, I am contemplating just trying it to see how poor I am at it. Somewhat analagous to the poor sap at work who thinks NFS is realistic. "What?! You can't do a 90 at 210KM/H? WTF?111" It's the same thing with many fresh young drift wannabees. That shouldn't take away the fact that there are plenty of drift drivers with serious skill. Just ask the NASCAR drivers (Oval... leave it out, please) who tried it and saw just how hard it really is to do well. Some were pretty good right off the bat; some were brutal.

I say try not to associate the sport with the plethora of dummies who 1337 5PEAK their way onto the ignorant list of this forum.

I don't like drifting...

... It's kinda like losing control with style

its kinda like.. thats the purpose

if it were more realistic it would be better (obvious statement lol)

Quote from XCNuse :

its kinda like.. thats the purpose

yeah, but anyone can lose control (perhaps not with style though)

I find it more of a challenge to keep control of the car and get some fast lap times

This drift/race controversy is starting to get old and boring. Let's get back to hockey. I'm a bit bummed out with the Penguins losing 4-2 to the Sabres. Crosby brought it back to withing 1 at 2-3 with a minute left, but with an empty net, Buffalo sunk one to set the win in stone.

Oh well, it was a tough game. Rangers and Jagr tomorrow night. We hate Jagr now since the way he left the Pens. It was funny. First game in Pittsburgh last year, they played a few clips from when Jagr was with the Pens. The fans cheered out of respect for how he helped during the Cup years, Jagr came out on the ice and made a few circles and waved. Game started, Jagr got the puck and was boo'ed, LOL. Gotta love rivalries.

Jagr is an arrogant premadonna waste of talent. What a poohead No respect for dudes like that. When you make million(s)/year for playing a GAME, you should have some class. Pity.

This drifter vs gripper thing is getting us nowhere and isn't doing us any good. Getting sick of silly F&F kids is one thing (I see the mtoo ofteh IRL and just ignore them these days). Some of the anti-drifter attitudes here are practically militant. And immature drifters resorting to confrontational stances aren't helping either. BTW, some posts of this thread is an utter disaster for well behaved and highly skilled drifters.

Anyway, which is faster, grip or drift? Techcally speaking, there is not much distiction between the 2, and the real question is how much tire slip angle should there be before we consider it "drifting"?

So, which is better? Let's forget this silly distinction and just examine things as they are. Let's use WRC cars since they travel on practically any terrain you could reasonably drive a car on.

On sticky tarmac surfaces, current RL WRC cars run 18 inch wheels and near slick tires. With these condtions, it's best to run relatively small slip angles since the lower sidewalled and wider tires generate maximum grip at lower magnitudes of slip. And yes, the wider the tire, the lower the optimal slip angle.

However, in some conditions, large slip angles are the only way to go fast. The best example of this is the snow stages. The only way to run them in typical circuit racing slip angles is to run them at granny speeds. This is due to the fact that although tire technology has mastered the art of generating longitudinal grip (aka traction), there is still NO tire that could generate much lateral grip on snow. So the only way to go around corners much faster than you should be able to based on the tire's lateral grip alone is to, dare I say drift. When a car's tires are pointing more towards the inside of a corner than they are actually travelling, you're basically using the excess traction to generate more centripetal force.

So to "drift" or "grip"? There's no one correct answer as it all depends on a myriad of variables. Well, when snow is properly simulated in LFS, "drifting" would suddenly become an essential racing technique, if it takes off. ATM, it's tarmac racing all the way, so small slip angles (10-15 degrees) aka "gripping" is the way to go. But if we have cars that Tazio Nuvolari used to drive on the road surfaces he raced on, then 4-wheel drifts throughout corners are the way to ultimate speed.

Conclusion-this grip vs drift war is pure absurdity and must be stopped ASAP. Case closed.

i have been reading all this bullshit idiots have posted on this thread. drifting will be/ is a recognised sport in most parts of the world. online servers are more often than not stated that it is drift or not and im not saying im against circuit racing i can do both and i wouldnt say im exactly the best. the growing change in motorsports ssuch as drifting will always change and on lfs its definelty much cheaper than doing it in real. i have watched and drifted in real life on a real track with real judges. i have drifted and ciruit raced on lfs on a track with other people. tsuchiya revolutionised the sport drifting is today and im sorry for the tossers who think that drifting is just another fad that will pass over unlike circuit racing , it wont and it will contiue to develop SO DEAL WITH IT!!

Quote from Hankstar :

Slarti, I don't think the point of Woz's comparison is about the actual equipment or techniques involved but about the rivalry of a new group of players vs the established group. The core of his post seems to be about a bunch of people entering an established area of competition with a new angle, acting like their way was the only way to do things and annoying everyone else. I think it's a good analogy and could be drawn from a lot of sporting rivalries, e.g. surfing/body-boarding, kung fu/Jeet Kune Do, BMX/mountainbiking (I see more mountain/downhill bikes at my local dirt jumps than BMXs these days - I see plenty at skateparks too). Mostly it's not the technique or method involved that causes the friction, but the attitudes from both sides of the fence.

Correct me if I'm wrong there Woz :up:

No need for correction

I took loads of crap from skiers early on but looking back at many of the boarders at the time. They turned up in the heart of what was a middle class holiday environment with their skate boy punk arse attitude and wonder why they caused offense. That resulted in the rest of us that boarded but were not part of that image getting crap because of them.

Years later and there are loads of older boarders now while some boarders have moved to ski's, now skis are cool after they took tech from boards, such as sidecut and twin tips. You now see skiers also in the funpark and half-pipe.

Drifting will become more mainstream and as it does friction will drop as the current hoon mob is attracts become the minority part of the community, same as happened with snowboards.

I'm a grip racer, but I enjoy drifting from time to time. I have no problem with it being recogniced as a motorsport category, although I would never go in a drifting competition. What I have never understood is why there is so much bashing from one side to the other. It's technically like comparing an airplane speedrace to plane aerobatics. They're both done with the same machine, but are different things which cannot be compared.

This dicussion is pointless =\ Drifters will stay with their opinion, Racers will stay with theirs. Noone will give up their positions and argue untill the forum is shut down cos of this thread taking all the disk space

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Genuine question: Does this ridiculous term "gripping" actually come from a ****ing cartoon?

Well, to be fair it's translated from the Japanese, so I don't know what word they are actually using, or if it's just "engrish". Whether or not it's a stupid term, it is useful to have a word for whatever you're doing when you aren't drifting.

(No, "Driving Properly" doesn't count, because it's a pain to say. :razz

Grip just refers to keeping rear end in line with the front, sliding or not. "Racing" drift refers to situations where sliding the back out wide is faster.

And yes, I've watched that "****ing cartoon"

Sorry that I'm not actually reading the entire thread, but I noticed people mistaking something for drifting A LOT just by page 4. Fast drivers in rwd cars do push their rear ends out a little through the corner, but the tires aren't actually sliding. What they're doing is maximizing the slip angle of the rear tires in order to obtain maximum grip. (The more slip angle you can obtain, the more grip you'll get from that tire.) And slip != slide, the slip angle is the angle the tire patch is actually pointing at relative to the centerline of the wheel, an effect created by the flexing of the sidewall and the deformation of the tire's rubber as the wheel rolls along the ground. AKA if you can actually manage to turn through the corner and you're on a solid surface, grip is always faster than drift.

And I started out with drifting in LFS back in the s1 demo days but got bored after a while. It can be fun, but I found I prefer the competition and the "high speed chess game" you play while battling with traffic. I'll still occasionally go on a drift server every couple months, but for me now it's when I want to relax compared to racing.

Everbody should do what they like but when 'drifting is faster than racing' thoughts come up it does become a bit scary!

Races are probably at least 30 minutes long. A BIG part of having the car go fast is provide it with sticky tyres: the softer the compound the most likely they will grip more and go faster, unless they overheat that is. Racing is about trying to get the most out of the tyres for as long as the race lasts.

That is the problem with drifting, even if it might be pretty fast for one or two laps, things overheat, especially if you'd fit grippy soft tyres, and after 2 laps, laptimes will get worse and worse. Drifting is not something that you can sustain any sort of speed with. You might drift for 30 minutes on hard tyres but they will provide less grip wich you wouldn't fit if the objective was to go as fast as possible.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

"Why do you keep asking me that? Does it really suck?"

:ices_rofl

i'm partial towards drifting... i really dislike is when they start drifting just for show, drifting was born based on taking sharp corners maximizing the tyres grip and sometimes without falling out of the cliff.

it's real.. there are some nuts that think that drifting means how long can you stay sideways and how much smoke can you make... but sometimes, drifting can help you overtake a fast, not so experienced driver.. i had the experience myself, in blackwood i was overtaken in the corner after the long straight, by a friend who has a lot of drift practice with the FZ50 GTR, i'm lapping around 1:09 with default setup, and he overtook me by the outside drifting, a LOT faster that i did, in the moment i made a little mistake... and it was proven to me, there are some corners that you can take with the FZ50 faster enough to make you cut 2 senconds with the same setup in blackwood... of course, the tyres will not last, but sometimes it helps when used properly getting that extra boost in the exit of the corner that will help you overtake the car in front of you... and yes, i'm talking about 15 to 30 laps races, not 3 or 6 arcade like races.

@DarwinAce
I assume, that by "drifting" you mean that the car is really going sideways, noticeable over the optimum slip angle, that's most likely a little bit, almost unnoticeable amount of oversteer.

If so..
Could you please cut the bs that drifting is faster around any blackwood tarmac corners than taking them with a proper line? It has been discussed enough in this thread. You call spinning your rear tyres as an "extra boost to corner exit"? Gimme a break..

Quote from DarwinAce :

i'm partial towards drifting... i really dislike is when they start drifting just for show, drifting was born based on taking sharp corners maximizing the tyres grip and sometimes without falling out of the cliff.

it's real.. there are some nuts that think that drifting means how long can you stay sideways and how much smoke can you make... but sometimes, drifting can help you overtake a fast, not so experienced driver.. i had the experience myself, in blackwood i was overtaken in the corner after the long straight, by a friend who has a lot of drift practice with the FZ50 GTR, i'm lapping around 1:09 with default setup, and he overtook me by the outside drifting, a LOT faster that i did, in the moment i made a little mistake... and it was proven to me, there are some corners that you can take with the FZ50 faster enough to make you cut 2 senconds with the same setup in blackwood... of course, the tyres will not last, but sometimes it helps when used properly getting that extra boost in the exit of the corner that will help you overtake the car in front of you... and yes, i'm talking about 15 to 30 laps races, not 3 or 6 arcade like races.

Demo racer? fz50 gtr? Anyway, if drifting was faster for even a single lap you'd see it all over the place in hotlaps. As it is, if you step the rear end out for just a split second you'll end up losing one or two tenths on the lap. If someone is sliding and overtaking you, then you're just not going fast enough through that corner.

The only times where I'll want to drift during a race is pulling the fast in/slow out blocking maneuver that people have been talking about. Go too fast into the corner and the rear naturally wants to step out and then you can use the fact that you're blocking the road to keep the guy behind you and then you'll accelerate faster than him out of the corner. (Not because of a speed boost from drifting, but because it's near impossible for the guy behind to manage his throttle input in a way that he gets grip and gets on the throttle at the same time you do.)

Drifting ?
LFS ?
Sure why not!
We have dragging, we have oval racing, we have rally.. why not drifting ?
As long as it happens in different servers and on decent ways, I remember a tournament by Kamo, things like that are véry good. But drifting on public (racing) servers is like asking for problems.. That there are more younger drifters then racers? Hmm.. I think it's dangerous to state that, I wouldn't have a real idea.

Anyway, you only see me drifiting in a FO8 or LX6, although I won't be drifting intentionally Had no problems so far with drifters, so I don't see any problem why we (racers) should look drifters like 'strange kiddy people'.

i'm the owner of a simcenter and yes y do have 4 licenses of lfs. it's just that i don't login with the registered usernames since that they are not me... they are the names of the computers using it.

that happened racing with a friend of mine who was in the cockpit by my side, i know i'm not the best driver around, but 1:09 regular in blackwood with the fz50 gtr i'ts not easy for most people.

what i'm talking about is that drifting is a good racing technique and very useful if used properly, i did made a mistake by taking the race line too close to the inside, so i turned a lot slower than usual, but managed to block the race line... making the regular driver behind me to step on the brake to avoid a colision... a well trained driver who can drift with control and speed avoiding countersteering can take a different line in the middle of the corner and overtake at a decent speed the driver blocking the race line.

note also that we race only with the default settings... i'm sure that tuning the settings in the right path to acoomodate your race style, you'll get better laptimes than someone who races drifting in some corners. But when you really exhaust the possibilities with the default settings, you eventually start trying different racing techniques, and drifting serves as a technique that allows you to slowdown while in the entry of the corner, and not before as grip driving requests. That's specially useful for underpowered cars, where avoiding losing speed wastefuly (ex: braking) means faster laptimes.

drifting is a good racing technique, the problem is the mindless wannabe racers who think that drifting is all about skidding, using hard tyres in order to take the corners in a neverending slow crabwalk.

So DarwinAce, what you've said in your third paragraph is basically this: "Drifting is a good racing technique, the proof being that I did it once by accident and prevented someone from passing me." I can't say that's very convincing Even with default setups I doubt very much that someone getting sideways would beat someone taking smooth lines through each turn. You can't kick the back out and block someone at every corner - sooner or later you'll need to think about your lines and try and be smoother in and out of turns. If a guy's a smoother driver than you, he'll pass you somewhere. If he backs off a bit and brakes a little earlier than normal (but not as hard), takes a slower line than you into a turn while you scrub speed off by drifting in hot, he'll be set up for a better exit and be right on your rear to catch your slipstream down the straight, or pull up next to you coming into the next corner.

Every time I've raced and gone into a corner sideways by mistake it's cost me time and made the job of the guy chasing me easier (if he's smart it has). I get passed a lot so that's fine, but losing traction only hastens the inevitable Getting sideways in any car has never benefited my laptimes or my race results.

Drifting can be useful on some occasions, but not for a whole race - not one longer than about 5 laps anyway - and certainly not in a GTR with a decent, even conservative setup. The way the FZ GTR eats tyres, drifting will not do you any favours. Some 4-wheel drift (not the same as arse-out sideways drifting) can help keep your corner speed up, but with LFS's GTRs and their slicks and wings, it isn't necessary. They're designed to have maximum grip and driving them any other way will not benefit the driver in the long run. The LX cars, however, can benefit from a slight loss of traction on all four wheels, but they have no downforce or slick tyres and some 4-wheel drift through a fast bend can mean the difference between front row and 3rd row on the grid. I do mean "slight" though...getting all fishy with an LX is not recommended

OK, next, your description of braking - "losing speed wastefully" - is utterly backwards. If I come into a corner sideways, my tyres are sliding across the tarmac, generating a lot of friction and therefore heat. The heat being generated is surplus to my needs and just dissipates into the air, so it's heating up my tyres for no reason at all. It's basically wasted energy. But if I use the brakes and keep the car straight, the heat's dissipating off of my brakes and my tyres are maintaining their temperature as I go through the bend. If I keep my exit clean and don't spin my wheels, my tyres aren't getting hotter than they should be. You might be able to block me here and there with some drift, but all I really need to do is what I said earlier: brake a little earlier, enter smoothly, get a good exit and get you later on

More accurately, I'd say the ability to drift is a good thing to have in your racing skill-set as it means you'll be able to save yourself when you have an unintended loss of traction or if you enter a corner way too hot.

And for crying out loud stop calling it "grip driving" On tarmac tracks, racing pretty much implies grip, as without it you're not going to be very fast, in any car

Quote from GianniC :

Drifting ?
LFS ?
Sure why not!
We have dragging, we have oval racing, we have rally.. why not drifting ?

I totally agree. I mean, cmon guys. Lets be nice and understand that people like different things in LFS. Some like racing, some like rallycross, some like drift etc.

This discussion is a little bit oversized i think. Acceptance is a good work in this case. No one force you to hang around on driftservers if you dont like drift. Simplicity is pure science LFS have soooo many different forms, lets enjoy that instead of make it to some sort of World War 3. (I dont say thats it wrong to discuss things, but this feels kinda enlarged) So lets bury teh hatchet and smoke the pipe of peace.