I wont explain what the STCC is here because if you are on these forums you either are crying out for more or are sick to death of it! If you would like more information, it's all here: http://www.simtouringcarcup.com

Running the series I have had lots of nice feedback, for which I am eternally grateful as I love all of it, and cherrish it dearly, and make every visitor to my house read ! Well ok, it is at least greatly appreciated. However, feedback volunteers is usually from people who really enjoy it, what I dont get to hear from are those who switch off and dismiss it.

I would very much appreciate hearing from everyone who stumbles into this post what you think of the STCC, in terms of the racing, the broadcast, the organisational aspect, the public server we run, anything and everything related to our "brand image" so to speak.

Do you consider us a minor distraction from a great game? Just another league? Or are we more akin to motorsport you watch on the telly and a series you tune into to see the action?

Are we getting things wrong in our broadcasts? Are we getting it right?

Do you support any particular driver? Do we take ourselves too seriously, or are we not professional enough?

Hearing the thoughts of our viewers, and of course the LFS forum is home to the majority of our viewer base in these early days, would help myself and the team to move the series forward.

I'll try to avoid getting into dialogue here (if I can resist), and just hear out your thoughts on the STCC - whether they be positive or negative, or whether you just want to bitch and moan because I banned you from the public server, or whether you want me to host your abortions but hate the racing.

Thank you for giving your time.

Just another league to me, seems a bit bitchy / clicky for my tastes, but thats just my opinion.

Dan,

The only thing I know about the STCC is that it's a league, so my vote goes to "yet another league".

I've watched all of the YouTube vids so far, and I really enjoy them.
Here's my opinions:

I like it better when there's more than one commentator, but they need to interact and be the same volume in the recording. I don't know if they get recorded individually, but it would be nice to hear them talking and getting opinions from each other while there's not much happening in the race.
The volume thing is quite noticable in places and can be a bit distracting. I'm a musician IRL so maybe that one is just me

I also think that any replays should be done in slow motion and from different camera angles. At normal speed they're over before you can either comment on them or see what's going on.
I know the laps are short, but if you were to slow down or pause the race in the background while the replay was going, nobody would really notice

Some of the intros are a bit too long and unneccesary. We don't need to see so much of an intro credit sequence. Important info, such as overall league standings and starting grid order are all we really need. Obviously other info (website, commentators) can go up while there's other stuff happening or as a rolling credit at the end.
Showing each car and discussing the drivers is flashy and cool, but if we get 10 mins in and the race still hasn't started, people are going to turn off.

Actually, to combine the recent promo video and thisnameistaken's comment, I think extra info (such as previous performances) should be done that way. Short videos that remind people of the name but don't distract from the main event.

Hope I didn't offend anyone too much, because I've watched all of the vids all the way through and thought they were really professionally done.

As good as the STCC is, it has plenty of shortcomings (for example post-production delay and racing format).

I enjoy watching the STCC-videos, it gets a great plus here for me (even if the sound was crappy in the most recent one), but going as far as describing it as the pinnacle would go a bit far I guess

The level of racing is not the absolute topmost, nor the level of finishing the broadcasts. However, I appreciate all those hundreds of hours of work thats made to produce the whole thing. And of course I enjoy watching those broadcasts - it's surely more exiting than F1.

calling it the pinnacle of lfs leagues would be over the top and its probably best describedd as yet another lfs league
however the broadcast is highly enjoyable an the only racing ive seen in years and ive even found myself anticipating the next race (its kinda hard to keep yourself from looking at the results and the clerk inquiries before the broadcast is out btw)

So, should the STCC disclose that information completely until the broadcast is out?

By the way I always thoroughly enjoy the broadcasts even though I drove the race myself. Looking at it is even more exciting than driving it. Maybe I'm just too cool as a driver and too passionate as a viewer.

Oh, and for those who never heard of it:
Watch this.

Vain

It is the best i think!

By coincidence I came upon your website today and was impressed. I downloaded a movie and was impressed. Whether it's the pinnacle I wouldn't know as I'm bad enough not to get anywhere near a pinnacle to recognise one. Certainly not the pits though; I'd recognise that!

I voted 'just another league' just because I don't know much about it. However, I did just watch one of the league races on youtube and I liked that. Well edited and nice commentary. I like that people are trying to improve sim-racing as a spectator sport.

Quote from Vain :

So, should the STCC disclose that information completely until the broadcast is out?

you mean not disclose dont you ?

its either that or hire somebody with a lash to make becky work faster

its brilliant !!well done to becky rose and others for such a great series but yet again theres no reason why other leagus arent or could be as good as them

I love it, but the one thing that 'cheapens' the broadcast is the radio chatter. It just sounds so... bleh.

To me, a league cannot become the "pinnacle" on the first 1 or 2 seasons of its debut. STCC hasn't been around long and is trying very very hard to make it 'seem' like it is the pinnacle. I don't mean this as a fault currently, but in order for it to become a really popular league, you have to touch basis with some fast drivers and teams, and make a win (whether it be from a race or for the championship) from STCC worth bragging about. Overall, the competitors in the league are very mixed, and on top of that, it is TBO class... which has good racing, but it still is honestly too uneven, regardless if you choose courses that help one car versus another.

The video broadcasts are a lot of work, and perhaps you are spending too much time on those. That's what it seems like to me. I like watching them, but I fast forward through so much of it. If you want to make a realistic broadcast feel, you can do that, but even a highlights version that is only about 5 mins long would do just fine in my opinion. Yet, that would be more work I suppose

But the point is, there are so many things you need to do (and can do) to make it a worthwhile league. If you aren't a league for professional drivers, that is fine, but it may not be seen as the "pinnacle" of leagues if fast drivers/teams don't participate. I imagine that you could make it much more interesting when/if you start a new season later on. You can plan your league however you like, but if you really want to mix things up and make a really interesting league, have a multi-class grid of TBO's and the two n/a demo cars. A grid of 20 cars, and 4 car classes each (2 per team).

So something like:

Touring Class (12):
2 - FXO team
2 - FXO team
2 - XRT team
2 - XRT team
2 - RB4 team
2 - RB4 team

Production Class (8):
2 - GTI team
2 - GTI team
2 - GT team
2 - GT team

If you put that all together, there is a pretty diverse group of cars. The idea of having different classes of cars is what I've always wanted to see done, and specifically with road cars. Also, if you had the teams use preset skins for the teams (make believe teams), it would make it more interesting too. Super GT does the multi-class stuff, and it is quite interesting (they're grids are big!). But if you had 20 total cars racing and 1 team/pair per car, it would be really neat. There needs to be more of a team and a "manufacturers" battle in mind to make the competition look viable. Even if you didn't want to have teams, making the grid look even MORE diverse would be to have 1

Also, the track choices are rather simple and boring, and there aren't many chances for cars to pass on most of the tracks. Yes yes there has been some good passing, but some of the tracks have very few corners and a lot of straights (the short configs). Also, I really wish there was some pitting involved and other strategies to anticipate while watching.

I can ramble on, because there are TONS of options STCC has to become even better and cater more towards being a highly recognizable league. Since you've just started not long ago, the level of drivers are very mixed. If you really gave the league some more appeal of not just drivers bashing into each other all the time, maybe some quicker drivers would be encouraged to try particpating in your next season. Else I just feel this is just another league. But you have the potential... it's just that the focus of the league seems to be in the wrong direction sometimes, if it wanted to be something superb or very interesting

I would say however that the STCC is a great example of what LFS can be used for in a league, but if you really want to demonstrate the competition in LFS, there are many other things to touch basis with.

Well, for once I agree with Tweak (well 95% anyway). I don't agree that you need to have the fastest drivers or teams involved, clean and close racing is the goal no matter who takes to the track. It's pleasantly surprising to see so many STCC drivers adopting good racecraft and showing enormous improvements over a short period both as individuals and as a group of racers. Although the series would improve a bit with a higher caliber of driver overall, I don't think any superstars are needed to achieve that.

I also like mixed class racing, but with too many classes you only end up with a few drivers in each class, which is not so entertaining and too predictable. I think the STCC would need to expand to include more events to properly cater for the whole touring class thing. But that's a lot more work too. Running a league is very time-consuming of course, but I think the video production is worth persevering with and the production should continue to include the whole race.

Great post, Tweak.. well thought out

We've talked a bit amongst ourselves about the TBO before, and it's important to recognise that the TBO isn't a class, it's really 3 classes. The actual championship points scoring system reflects this (Horvath is right up at the top, in an XRT!) and when I'm racing in an RB4 it's really the other RB4s I'm focused on getting in front of. Perhaps, if it doesn't come across so well in the broadcasts, that's something that could be focused on more. That said, for the viewer, understanding the intricacies of "3-races-in-1" in just a 35min broadcast may be a little too much. I don't know the answer.. just rolling it around..

I should say that, when I read the poll options, seeing "the pinnacle.." made me worry a little. I think the STCC is definitely the most VISIBLE league, because of the broadcasts and teasers etc. It does generate a lot of interest, and I think the formula that Becky's drawn up and executed is absolutely the bees gnads. But can TBO actually BE the pinnacle of sim motorsport? What is it that makes something the pinnacle? I'm posing the questions rhetorically, rather than seeking to discuss those intricacies. If "pinnacle" can mean "forefront" in this context, then considering its position in peoples' minds after 4 races (and 3 broadcasts), if it isn't there yet, I do think it's headed that way.

One small point.. if Becky spent a week rather than a month(ish) on each broadcast, there would still only be one per month because there's only one race per month. Less, more often, can't really fit the STCC. I think the 30-40 min broadcast is the right length. I could watch any of the broadcasts time and time again.. the battle that is developing is bloody fantastic to watch and I really can't fault the format. I'm sure a part of it is bias, but I'm quite sure it's not all.

@Gunn:

To have the fastest drivers is likely to be considered the 'pinnacle' for an LFS league I think, that's what I was trying to make note of in response to that word. Watching them race would be really great. Having any adequate drivers that can be somewhat fast and race well, sure that would be nice too, but to have a group of drivers that are the most prominent of fast drivers, that is like having a GPL race of the fastest drivers known to that sim -- amazing to watch. I consider that the pinnacle of performance and racing. Maybe having it called "the pinnacle" is just too strong of a word for STCC, because it indeed could have great racing and action, but it doesn't have the professionalism to call it so. It can definitely work towards having that professionalism, but it doesn't have to have fast drivers all across the board... unless of course it wanted to become the biggest and best league LFS has. Just as long as they are not total noobs and crashing all the time, it would be nice to see... otherwise it looks like a typical pick-up race online. In light of that, I guess I am suggesting that the level of drivers needs to be fairly even... because at the moment it seems there are just a few drivers that were "interested registrants" and not as fast as some of the top drivers currently. And with a video, you get the interest of some fast drivers that want to participate, so you may very well have some faster drivers next season, without even asking. But still, there needs to be some kind of reward or bragging rights from participating in the league... and that's not just to be featured in a video of the race.

Coming up with new ideas and getting feedback from what people think is a great step forward though. So take whatever people have said into consideration... and maybe come back with a new "bang" for another season . If the video production isn't much of a hassle, continue on with that, but I'd really consider putting forth more effort into the league's future. The video footage is GREAT to have, but if that is the only thing that can draw attention, then you need to have a lot of other interesting bits for the public to take in once they see the video(s) for the first time. I guess to make us "fans" of STCC.

I should expound a little on why the broadcasts happen. Essentially it IS the broadcasts that are the "purpose" of the STCC. That is to say that the STCC tracks, the cars and the format/timeframe etc all are defined by the broadcast that will result from the race.

Add to that, though, the very conscious decision to place significant emphasis on marshaling and strict adherence to rules. In part this is for the benefit of the broadcast - to demonstrate a solid basis for the series rather than just a bunch of cars round a track for a bunch of laps and "oh, the one in the red car's won!" - but the marshaling is taken very seriously, it's a REALLY valuable part of the process, and it does FEEL real (speaking as an STCC backmarker). The strength and quality of marshaling makes the STCC really solid, IMO. Along with the broadcasts, I think these two aspects are probably the crux even though one of them happens largely behind closed doors.

Sam, as a fellow backmarker, I agree with you. The strict rules really show what LFS racing could be, if we had such severe rules for all races and it makes the races much more fun, knowing you don't haffto watch out for a noob to smack you off in any turn (Cept for sam, he's always ramming me up the backstraight ). It actually gives STCC a feel as a real league, unlike other leagues which is like Sam explained as: "A bunch of cars driving for some laps, and "ooh, the pretty yellow car with red and that sexy bull (ukct ) on it" won".

Also, Sam, GET TO BED!!

I think I need to get practicing my AS1 driving.

Quote from Tweaker :

@Gunn:...

Thanks for the rant. The next time I see a league that's asking for the fastest egos online, I'll send you the url.

.... You're getting the wrong idea Gunn. Secondly, this has nothing to do with me. You're the one with a big ego about anything in response to what I say. Go love your children and stop being so smug.

I am referring to the word "pinnacle". Giving the poll (or STCC) such a word to describe itself would mean a number of things. To have the "pinnacle" of racing... wouldn't you want the world's top LFS drivers, the fastest, etc etc? That's all I am saying.... and that is all I am replying to. I don't care if STCC has fast drivers or not, I just think that the fact Becky has an option for STCC being the pinnacle of leagues... it's a bit off... or expecting too much (couldn't blame 'em though, a lot has been done thus far).

Egos :rolleyes: Some people really like to THINK that fast drivers have such "big egos", when they don't even act cocky at all (except RudiTurbo ). It's always a specific group that want to consider them "top guns with egos", when the fast drivers don't even want to be represented that way (What are they supposed to do? Slow down?). So someone has talent and can drive fast... is that something to which you should victimize them for? Don't some fans admire such experience? Don't you usually say it is best for the casual noobie to be inspired and/or "learn"? Don't you also say that LFS is a professional simulation, and a lot is to be learned from it? (You'll just say I am putting words in your mouth, but this is your usual enlightenment seen on the forums in response to LFS).

And when would a league with fast drivers ever be catergorized as having the fastest egos online. I've never seen such attitude from fast drivers in professional league, the only attitude comes from the people that hate to see how fast they are *cough*. Learn a thing or two yourself if you want to be fast, and you'll see how it feels to be called "alien" or "ego". It gets annoying, and it's saddening! MoE has LOADS of fast drivers, where do they go punching viewers saying they are the fastest and best, hardy har har? Same goes for ESL, EPS, etc etc. And when Krani makes a video of the action in those leagues, the footage is amazing. If those leagues already have those drivers booked, it doesn't matter, there are hundreds of other fast drivers that would surely be interested in the STCC... but I guess their egos are too much for it? :doh: :ices_rofl

Gunn, I guess you would settle for less -- but with proper racecraft? :zombie:. Again, it's about the "pinnacle" part. And Sam realizes that is a bit of an overstatement too... as it really suggests way too much for what STCC currently is.

If this league wants to have growth and the experience "appeal", you'd have to at least have some fast drivers. If you went to a race weekend, wouldn't you look forward to the "main" race with all the fastest drivers? Rather than the slow, amateur series they'd show before the big event? I go walking around the paddock. If you want to appreciate racing at its "best", you'd wait for the best. I guess I am making a suggestion that for your next season you have some sort of "tryouts" for the competitors to be allowed in the league. Top 20 would be the finalists.

I really gotta hand it to the others that have handled any of my suggestions with some consideration or comprehension.

Quote from Tweaker :

.... Again, it's about the "pinnacle" part. And Sam realizes that is a bit of an overstatement too... as it really suggests way too much for what STCC currently is.

I really am off to bed in a minute. Just wanted to touch on this. I don't think Becky is for one moment implying that the STCC is "the pinnacle of...", she's actually just asking how other people perceive the STCC. The point of it is to understand the effect the broadcast has on the general LFS populous, regarding perceptions.

Most LFSers, including the significant numbers of people visiting the forum, have never seen ANY league race that they weren't, themselves, participating in. With the STCC, this isn't a limitation. The question is about whether that experience has pushed the STCC to the top of the percieved pie and made it the cherry. The poll isn't "Did you know that the STCC is the pinnacle..", it's a question about perception. Beginning and end. Please don't transpose that into an assumption about the STCC being right up its own exit port

As for the other bits, I can't comment. The only alien I know is my own sister. She's gotta be an alien, there's just no other explanation.

Nighterz

After hearing of Clownpaint getting banned as a stand-in driver (who wasn't fully aware of the rules because he was told he was driving a few hours beforehand) for ASKING for a setup... put it this way - I voted for the fourth option. illepall