We were involved in the start crash, then in lap 2 I was hit heavily which caused (?) my computer (it happened at the moment of crash...) to freeze and I had to reset and rejoin. So knowing that in lap 6 we had 4 lap disadvantage it's not a bad result for us. At least we had the chance to see how MOE goes If it's possible we would like to participate in the next races, too.

Csimpok

This was an amazing race, to bad for the start crash, but it happens…

This time we didn’t have any major problems, we crashed wide once and coz of that we did an extra pit in Lap 11 just to fix the damage… but my mates with all the effort and good driving were able to catch up the 1st place and recoup more than 40 seconds, in the last stint Biernot also crashed coz of some windows pop up but with no damage, still we lost 12 seconds to ocrana but once again with a great driving from Biernot we were able to be in front of ocrana when they pit out…

I’m looking forward for the 24h race

"Car #20 - Mercury Racing: Stop & Go for causing a crash during the start that involved half the field"

The first thing I wanted to ask about was this, "Causing"....The cause of this crash was the front cars braking seconds after the start, I was just one who couldn't react quick enough to stop what happend.

The second thing that bothers me is the length of time to decide this, I do admit, in the .mpr it looks although I had alot of time to react, but mpr's simply do not show lag or anything else we have to encounter and there really wasn't enough consideration put into this.

So, please, can we have some reasons on for the descision that was taken against us? I can't help but feel that this descision was made to early and to quickly without examining all the differnt possibities for this crash, not just 1 car striking another.

I finally would like to apologise to everyone who was invloved in this, but in no way am I taking full responsability for what happend, as I did not cause that crash.

You were the one that was responsible for the contact, hence you caused the crash.

We are aware that the start did not go as it should go. This, however, does not mean that contact was unavoidable which means that the one who was responsible for the contact also is responsible for the crash. We all have been racing for long enough now that we know that a lot can happen at a start, lag included. Everyone is required to keep that in mind and when one thinks he has to take evasive action, they also need to keep the close proximity of other cars in mind.

If you had moved to your right, nothing would have happened. You might have lost a position because you would not have had the perfect line for T1, but this by far is preferable to moving into other cars.

Oh, i'm sorry, I forgot to use my god damn future seeing goggles today so I took the option EVERY racer would have taken to follow the other cars through the corner.

And I don't see how the contact was my fault, yes I was behind and ran into him, but in these situations do you think i'm going to be preparing to slam my brakes? I was moving over to the left because I wanted to get the best T1 and make sure that I have the most chances of getting through safely.

As I was moving over the 1st car braked and I can't remember if i noticed or not so stayed going to the left and the Ocrana car had to brake, IMO and others it was a stupid lag situation where in the circumstances it was unavoidable.

Ps. If I had went to the right as you say, I would have been on the inside for T1 making a silly attempt at a pass which would most likely end up with a crash, if this is the kind of starts you are promoting then I wish all who listen to such "gospel" driving good luck.

Quote :

I would have been on the inside for T1 making a silly attempt at a pass which would most likely end up with a crash

See, this is the difference of philosophy we seem to have. If you had moved to the inside, you would have to have lifted, and not attempt a pass. A start can include giving way in order to avoid a crash and that can also involve accepting to give up a position.

This philosophy has worked quite well in more than 3 years of ESL racing and one season of MoE, without it leading to more crahses, but way less.

So your saying I should have moved to the right once I saw Nils braking which was after I started moving over behind him. Watch the replay, If I hadn't have hit Nils and turned the other way, the chances were I was hitting the 1st team car.

But you don't seem to be getting that if I had time to do this I would have had time to brake and avoid the Ocr car, which I didn't. I wouldn't say todays race was the laggyest i've had but I can say that the server was laggy and I know that the chances of anyone avoiding what you say I should have are very slim. If anyone was paying attention, during the 2 stints I done, the red bars at the bottom left all went right up and I got the "Mp replay out of stash space" msg 3 times and the whole way the bars were allways higher than your average.

I have to wonder what is being done about these starts though, the green flag msg isn't to handy as prooved today, not to good focusing on the top left of your screen while the car infront may have encountered a problem. It all seems a bit random for me and is proven by the fact that no one was really positive they knew what was happening, more to the side of people letting off, braking etc etc.

Quote from Hoellsen :

You were the one that was responsible for the contact, hence you caused the crash.

We are aware that the start did not go as it should go. This, however, does not mean that contact was unavoidable which means that the one who was responsible for the contact also is responsible for the crash. We all have been racing for long enough now that we know that a lot can happen at a start, lag included. Everyone is required to keep that in mind and when one thinks he has to take evasive action, they also need to keep the close proximity of other cars in mind.

If you had moved to your right, nothing would have happened. You might have lost a position because you would not have had the perfect line for T1, but this by far is preferable to moving into other cars.

1 word for all of that!
BULLS**T!

You want to know where fault SHOULD be placed?
Try looking at your race director and mister Belak!

If Mr Belak would be so kind as to apply some throttle to his car when the message:
GREEN!
GREEN!
GREEN!
GREEN!
GREEN!

has been given, instead of typing 'wtfg*' while during the race, which the last i recalled was an offence in itself, he might not have needed to apply the brakes a couple of times when the race was green, those stupid actions are what caused the knock-on effect behind him. Granted if Bawbag, N1lyn & Punisher had the ability to predict his actions, im sure they would have just kept the throttle firmly down, Bawbag could have just kept the hammer down and gone round the outside of the lot of them and took the lead easily, but instead, without the benefit of slow mo replays knowledge of whats coming up, and to be able to pass the buck on a irresposibly late race start, he got caught up in something which happened in under a second, which when combined with lag, you expect to react to what was happening in that split sec incident, you've completely passed ALL blame onto someone who was unfortunate enough to be caught up in a stupid mess!


I'd love to hear your comments on this, because im amazed that you've completely glazed over this subject by blaming someone stuck in the middle of it all, when the lead driver is too busy typing stupid messages (which are SUPPOSEDLY punishable) to have noticed that the green flag message has already been given, and his tap tap tapping on the brakes arent appreciated by those caught up in his wreckless driving!

Hoellsen, Casper, your comments would be very much appreciated!!

Hi,
atfirst I want to APPOLOGIZE to all who were invloved in that accident. I admit it's totally my fault. I think noone else should get a penalty for that accident than me.

I didn't predict that YELLOW FLAG on the S/F straight, before "GREEN GREEN GREEN". I noticed that Alex did mention "not yellow flag" after Frank tried if "GREEN" key works. But I had no idea what yellow flag was Alex talking about.

At the start I'm 100% concentrated on any text that appears to accelerate to the maximum. So that yellow flag really caused me to accelerate too soon and then i recognized it wasn't green flag, so i braked back to 80kmh.

But I think others should keep at 80kmh, doesn't matter if I accelerated too soon. But I know that those who were in the back didn't notice accelerating infront, they only noticed braking

I'm really sorry guys, it won't happen again. Atleast now I know I have to be careful about yellow flag before GREEN.

Why dont the admins, choose the LFS GT option... Type Green Flag as a server message, in deeep green text, just like blue or yellow flag appears. Im sure that wont cause any confusion, and will most certainly make even the color blind driver know that its green flag,

Just to mention the text you type GREEN,GREEN has a tendency to lag. and isnt transmited to all drivers AT THE SAME TIME. IMO the green flag server message should be adopted.

Well I don’t think its totally your fault there casper, others need to look for themselves, not accelerate coz someone did it… about the accident its 80% Mercury car fault in my opinion and 20% the mess with the green flag… and Mercury shouldn’t blame others for it

I have to see replay. Will look at it tomorrow and then talk about it a bit more.

:fence:
from the replay I have it's quite clear who is at fault.

On the other hand bawbag seems to have some magic replay showing a group of trolls and fairies somehow taking out half of the grid, so who knows?!

just watched it 3 times from different camera positions...i dont think it was like caspers fault at all...its just mooney turned totaly into nils at the start made him turn around and take half of the field out...

Quote from casper88 :

Hi,
atfirst I want to APPOLOGIZE to all who were invloved in that accident. I admit it's totally my fault. I think noone else should get a penalty for that accident than me.
...

I watched the replay a lot of times now and it wasn't only your fault.

Did you made a mistake?
Yes
Did you braked more then once after the race started like PaulC2K wrote?
No, not in my replay.

Did Mooney also made a mistake?
Yes
Because if there was such a lag he described then Mooney should have been extra careful instead of trying to hold/gain a position at all costs with the very first move he made. To blame then others for braking is the worst excuse I've ever heard.
For me that's kind of the strange "I only crashed into him because he was to slow - so it's his fault" illepallattitude some have. Sry Bawbag but that's how I see it.

Sorry, probably not the appropriate place to ask but I could not find the replay files nowhere in the Endurance site. Is there a link where I can download and watch the race?

thanks.

Quote from casper88 :

At the start I'm 100% concentrated on any text that appears to accelerate to the maximum. So that yellow flag really caused me to accelerate too soon and then i recognized it wasn't green flag, so i braked back to 80kmh.

That is what I thought happened too. People are very focused to listen and look for the "GREEN" message, so ANYTHING that pops up before the green flag will get people all messed up. I think the Green flag could've waited a while longer so that the pack wasn't jumbled up so much.

The accelerating and braking from the front part of the grid really got everyone out of sync. I still think so many people were confused and the braking from other drivers was not expected, people were pushing and shoving to at the start. I still don't see why a simple restart could've happened, as this was obviously a problem not just from Bawbag, but from other drivers and early messages from Frank. A few minutes delay for the race would have done no harm. I still think people were jumping the start, and there were no penalties for that... not even a drive through. Not to mention that the whole situation was dealt with WAY too fast on the admin's behalf, and it should have been looked into further. People were shouting "lag", and I was mentioning people jumped the start... yet you guys ignored this for some reason, and just went ahead to not restart the race and gave us a penalty. Yes Bawbag did cause the contact, but there were a lot of preceding events that took place which were ignored. Also the penalty given to Bawbag (according to your rules) was given an appeal on IRC and was under discussion, but the admins were too quick and already gave the penalty. Bad. (You never acknowledged any sort of appeal, you just came to us and said "here is your penalty").

If you guys are doing rolling starts, you need to practice it more or something. Because hell.... a grid/stranding start would've been safer than this. You need to advise that the leading cars need to stay at the same pace and not be so erratic. And I also think that their pace for the short distance to the s/f line was a bit too fast, you could've waited a lot longer to pull out the green.

I don't think this is about blaming others for the accident, many people see this incident differently. It's such a bad incident, I still think a restart would've settled this just fine.

@BBO: FYI, casper DID brake twice, and was not maintaining a speed of 80km/h for the start --- twice... bursting ahead at speeds upwards of 100km/h+. That is an infraction of rule #6, and indeed why everyone was out of sync and confused. Just some sporadic acceleration

Quote from Tweaker :

@BBO: FYI, casper DID brake twice, and was not maintaining a speed of 80km/h for the start --- twice... bursting ahead at speeds upwards of 100km/h+. That is an infraction of rule #6, and indeed why everyone was out of sync and confused. Just some sporadic acceleration

True but still everybody did that infraction not only Casper

I know, not blaming anything completely on him. Everyone else was pretty nuts on that start... Still, it is the leader's responsibility to maintain the pace of the pack at 80km/h, this was not done properly.

There were was such a long chain of events that caused one thing after another... it wasn't a pretty start. I can only say that for future starts, everyone be sure and stay at 80km/h and the admins should wait longer until pulling the green out. Not to mention that people were coming together in double file at the very last minute it looked like. It should've been done on the straight before the last turn. Don't take what I've said the wrong way, I am only mentioning this stuff so these things don't happen again, and everyone should know what to do.

I wish some people would read instead of posting what they think has been said.

Ok i'll start at the top and work my way down scene as there is so much been said in here that really has came form the fairies, as that Tube pointed out.

Casper - IMO the only thing you have to apologise for is getting confused with all the start crap and hitting your brakes because you thought you were in the wrong which was wrong in this case but in others it may not have been so it just adds to the confusion.

Neo - "and Mercury shouldn’t blame others for it" I'm sorry, when did we blame someone else. The only things I blame for this accident was lag and confusion, in the replay it clearly looks my fault but as I said, add your typical online lag in there and it takes a big percentage of the small reaction time had.

Tube *Literally* - "On the other hand bawbag seems to have some magic replay showing a group of trolls and fairies somehow taking out half of the grid, so who knows?!!On the other hand bawbag seems to have some magic replay showing a group of trolls and fairies somehow taking out half of the grid, so who knows?!" You clearly can't read/understand a post can you? You clearly shouldn't be posting about something you can't even understand, not once did I say my replay showed something differnt, all I said was in the actual server things happen differntly, like the delay between sharp movements or cars braking.

belain - "i dont think it was like caspers fault at all...its just mooney turned totaly into nils at the start made him turn around and take half of the field out..." When I started turning towards the draft of Nils all was hunky dory and he was not braking at the time, so 3 times clearly isn't enough.

BBO - "Because if there was such a lag he described then Mooney should have been extra careful instead of trying to hold/gain a position at all costs with the very first move he made. To blame then others for braking is the worst excuse I've ever heard." Erm, Hello? I posted explaining WHY I was moving to the left, not to gain or defend a position, I could have easily kept the double file and went into T1 alongside Nils but that would be trying to gain a position at all costs, not moving in behind him to make sure I got through T1 without issues.

Yea, you try avoiding a car that is braking when your at what, 120mph (?) When your not expecting it, it's a league race, it's a rolling start, all you expect and have seen so far in MoE is everyone to floor it, having the 3 cars infront of you brake for apparently no reason when you are going flat out is...shit.

"I only crashed into him because he was to slow - so it's his fault" No, I never said that once, As i've said, I only crashed into him because I was unfortunate enough to be heading over behind him just before they all slammed the brakes. Yet still, I never blamed any of them, I blamed the system and your typical online lag oh and ovcourse my future seeing goggles.

Now I honestly can't see why on earth people have been taking my posts out of context and simply making up there own parts, but the problem is the understanding of it online and not just the replay. If things in the server were as clear and lag free as these mpr's this discussion would not be taking place, at all.

Also prooves how much detail the admins went into with checking the replay so they give a proper penalty, how many times can you open up a replay and not notice someone "chatting"?

well yeh and i agree with you tweak, everything went wrong in that start but i´m sure that this will never happen again

since the speed limit is 80kph why don't you get people to put there pit limiter on since everyone is going at the same speed and no one as an advantage anywhere so it is all down to people reaction to get a good start

I think that's the idea in the LFS GT, but as in anywhere, it will never be about good reactions, it's about who can floor it just before the green flag is waved.

On the side, It would be easier to stop this if you just mapped 3 2 and 1 on your keyboard, it wouldn't be so realistic but the 3 2 1 then Green Green Green would give nobody an exuse for jumping the starts and those who don't jump the start the chance to get away cleanly to.

Or leave it the way it is and when the next team happens to get screwed over by the system we will go through this all again.

Quote from BBO@BSR :

Did you braked more then once after the race started like PaulC2K wrote?
No, not in my replay.

Then I suggest you watch the posted replay, shortly after the extremely bizarre and confusing 'Yellow Flag' warning Casper nails it, brakes on 2 occasions and also lifts off the power before finally keeping the pedal down for the race.


Its pretty obvious from Caspers actions that he'd understood the race had started because of the yellow flag talk earlier, because of that others followed suit and it just caused a lot of confusion, hence the 'wtfg*' comment made while slowing the car down despite the fact the race had already gone green officially.
Those flag actions caused a lot of confusion, and with the accel/brake rocking the pack its left people thinking the race has started, then hasnt, then has, hasnt and all at the same time your waiting for a message to appear in the top left corner of the screen, you have the pole driver resorting to typing a message to figure out wtf is going on, and at the same time those behind are trying to figure out the exact same thing AND react to the lead cars actions so not to get left behind.



Neo: yeah, I wouldnt expect you to think anything different!
The accident came about through the knock-on effect of a very badly organised start, which resulted in your driver becoming confused (which is hardly bl**dy suprising to be fair!) and the accel/brake which followed the yellow flag message caused the problem in-advertantly. I dont think its really Caspers fault for any of the actual mess that came about, but the fact that incorrect messages came up which caused a ripple effect through those lead cars.


If anyone cares to take a look from an overhead angle, just before the race goes green, casper is accelerating away, gets to 77mph, race goes green and in the time between the first 'GREEN!' and the 2nd appearing up top, he's slowed down to 67mph coast it to 64mph and then having typed 'wtfg*' realises the race has started and puts his foot down.
While thats going on, Punisher has to keep behind Casper and is rocking back n forth, just as with N1yln & Bawbag, the only difference is that as the race has gone green Bawbag moves into somewhere which there IS/WAS space, however because of the actions ahead of him N1lyn is just starting to back off because he cant pass Punisher. Thats where the contact comes from. Bawbag moving into what would have been empty track if Nyl1n had maintained his faster speed, but because Punisher had slowed more than N1lyn, he's had to react to that too, and thats where the contact was made.
Thats from about 4 seconds of racing!


I've never suggested that Bawbag was completely innocent, he could have kept his distance, he could have gone right (which would have compromised his line into the 1st corner). At the same time had Punisher & N1yln could also have kept a larger gap so they wouldnt have got into a situation where they had to brake because the leading car decided to brake twice down the start/finish straight, not entirely his fault, but then those actions do have an effect on what proceeds too.

Its not like were talking about a clean cut incident with 2 cars and one couldnt be arsed to brake, theres other incidents happening within a couple of seconds which have caused knock on effects of which this was one of them, but to point blank blame it all on the actions of 1 driver when theres caos all around him is just plain wrong. Yes it was Bawbags car which made the contact, but apparently the actions from the race director confusing people at a point when everyone is jumpy is apparently only describable as "did not go as it should go", yeah no sh!t it didnt! Funnily enough, it didnt quite go how 75% of the pack wanted it to go, somehow you even confuse the f*ck out of the pole man, but apparently Bawbags actions ARE avoidable, pressing the wrong buttons at an extremely sensitive momont ISNT avoidable?

I dont get how its right to place full blame someone else for making a mistake your (race director) directly responsible for causing, but because and accident was caused by your mistake, its their fault!? At the same time you've completely ignored other rules in the rulebook, yet punishing someone else for doing the exact same thing later in the race.

I just dont see how thats fair, everyone accepts accidents will happen, but the possibility of these accidents being a result of a mistake by the organisers is dismissed from the offset, no explanation or appology for any confusion, just a clear and knee-jerk blame placed on the person caught up in it all.