Not a bad idea if you ask me :up: Because keeping formation in double file when your pit limiter is on, it is really easy and safer. It would be a nice calm start and everyone would be in a respectable distance from each other before the green would be waved. All you'd have to do is time it to press the limiter button and off you go!
The eagerness of drivers by pulsing the throttle is just bad for the unpredicatibility of these rolling starts. 80km/h should be kept, so I think using the pit limiter is a good solution. AND make sure you start your double file BEFORE the last turn, not coming out of it :doh:
I didn't wrote that clear enough.
I wrote "Did you braked more then once after the race started... etc
I meant after the first GREEN message was given.
And still in my replay he brakes only one time after the GREEN message was given. GREEN is the Race start for me.
About the "bursting ahead at speeds upwards of 100km/h+". Yes in my replay all 4 drivers in front (didn't checked the others) are driving with more then 100km/h before the first GREEN message appears.
So then they all had a problem with rule#6
And nobody ever said you did.
Looks like my english skills are not good enough to understand what you wrote there. For me it looks like you try to give the blame to the braking cars. But maybe I was wrong.
As I wrote in the above post. I meant after the race started.
For me the GREEN message started the race.
btw I also watched the replay from here.
In the replay the comment was made after the 5th GREEN Message and the Saftycar goes spec message when he was at full throttle.
Maybe we all have different replays?
Anyway I think you guys are making something bigger out of it as it already was.
I explained what I meant, but bviously wrong wording, but still i'll try and rephrase it for you.
This crash happend because the cars ahead of me had to brake because of the confusion from screwed up start. Clear enough?
BTW, I done a quick stpo watch test in x.500 speed of the replay and between the time that Nils braked and I hit his rear I had around 1 and a half seconds to react, now the fastest reaction time for a human is .500 of a second, that means I had about 3 tenths to hit my brakes and stop my car from hitting Nils who allready had 50% brake applied.
Well, let it be known, that's all we can do right now. Because it's not just Mooney that was caught up in all of this. Furthermore, the immediate judgement and justification of giving us a penalty without listening to any appeals or thoughts on the incident was another problem. I repeatedly said in in the MoE IRC channel that there were people jumping the start and others were already mentioning that there should've been a restart, since so many things were out of place and out of order during that start. And when reviewing the replay, I think the ONLY thing the admins were looking for was who was the first to contact and cause the crash -- and wanted to punish the driver asap, when infact (like we've said already many times), there were many things leading up to this that caused the accident... and it should've been dealt with properly. They gave us the replay so we could review it, BUT they gave us the replay AFTER (5 mins later) the fact we had been given the penalty. illepall We didn't have a chance, even after we reviewed the replay.... and to be honest, Jonesy and I felt like we were being ignored during this situation. This was the last we heard of them:
So they agreed, but whatever happened to that discussion hmmmm???? Only later to find people happily talking about the new website and other things.
For the start we btw always look at an official replay, which would be one taken by one of the admins on the server. Always done so, always will.
About the whole Yellow Flag situation at the start: We've had this procedure for the 10th race now (including the 4h race in April). When the whole field is running at around 80kph AND a car pulling into the pits you most of the time get a yellow. Hell, here in Westhill you even get yellow flags when cars are pulling from the pits after a stop. Did that make you brake on the S/F? So pls don't try to blame that you fked up the start on that usual yellow.
Tweak: We were discussing it and when we don't hand out a penalty after we say that I guess that is because we do not see a reason to do so. Shouldn't be so hard to understand, should it? That doesn't mean that the start procedure will not be reviewed until the 24h, but for this race the teams' behaviour it was no different than any other race before and we haven't given a penalty on that yet, so not this time either.
And if we want to go into posting quotes from the IRC, whatever happened to this:
[12:24:05] <Jonesy_> well must say after the replay it wasn´+t quite mooney described on ts
[12:24:19] <Jonesy_> we be accpeting that penalty then
Obvisly something isn't good with the starting procedure:
- Drivers don't respect the speed limit
- Confusing with yellow messages when the pace car enter the pit (I assume)
- The green flag message isn't good
- Overtaking is allowed before the start finish line
This together creates a starting caos very easy. The meaning to have a rolling start is to prevent accidents, every one is in racing speed when the start go off. If you are allowed to overtake before the s/f you really go for it when the green comes up. If something happens in front of you, you try to take advantage of it. That is what shows up in your petrol head, not to slow down and minimize the risk of an accident.
If you on the other hand aren't allowed to pass anyone in your own lane before the s/f line, you would defenitly have a safer aproach.
Sugestions:
- Penalty for violating the speed limit, both ways (to slow or to fast) when lining up for the start
- Don't use the safety car. The pole sitter take the decided speed.
- There have come up different sugestions here. I don't know what is best.
- No overtaking in your own lane before the s/f line.
The penalties should be a DT. One of the admins should have a look of the replay of the start during the first laps and hand out the penalty for the violaters.
The reason why I switched back to the chat Green flag message, is because I had the feeling that the message in the middle of the screen does not reach everyone at the same time. It is hard to test this, since you always have the problem of lag if you want to measure it. If someone can prove or disprove this feeling, please do so, cause the current system is not ideal either.
I did tell everyone to do so before the last turn, but nobody did so.
I cant check if the amount of 1.5s is correct, but if I subtract 0.5s reaction time from 1.5s, I get 1.0s. So where did the 0.7s go?
But braking in time is not the big deal here, it is the thing that you drove to the left where it was busy and people where braking, instead of to the right where nobody was driving.
For the next race I promise that I will take sufficient measures to get a proper overview of the start/finish line to give the green flag properly. We might have to alter the starting-procedure rules for that.
If you don't give penalties for jumping the start like this, then I don't see why Bawbag should've gotten a penalty then. Your justification of the penalty is because your previous races never gave penalties for jump starts? The thing is, we've tried to make it clear that none of this would've happened if the start wasn't jumped -- twice. As well as people braking and bunching up the pack. Just by saying it as being Mooney's fault and he should be the only one given a penalty... to even say such a thing, that still completely disregards what everyone else had done, and deciding not to come up with a penalty for the ones that truly created such an accident is really the most dissapointing to us (and now easy to see how you wish to give penalties, as if they were coupons). Bawbag didn't agree with the penalty at all, and what Jonesy told you was just after the point at which you gave the penalty, no?
Still I sense a lot of disgust ONLY from Mooney's actions during the accident, and then all you guys wish to do is make him the guilty one, while everyone else seems innoncent JUST because they were spun and you can only express sympathy towards them and in return we get the "down with the culprit" sort of attitude. We feel there was a whole lot more to how this happened, yet it is being so rudely and blatantly ignored, it just makes me upset personally. That said, it is quite obvious there is NO further review on this subject, and we will have to head off with our heads held high only hoping that the next time something like this happens, penalties need to be dealt with accordingly to make it FAIR for not just one offender, but the others too.
Like Cawwa has said there.... I think this calls for a review on the starting procedure and come up with a new way of doing the start. I remember the Aston GT race too, and the rolling start for that didn't even look that great either, there isn't a definite time when create a nice double file, and wait for the green. This Westhill start was too quick and disorderly on both the driver's and admin's behalf, and learning from such mistakes (hate to call it that) would leave MoE with a lot better starts in the future.
In continuation with Cawwa's suggestions I have to say a few:
-Pace car needs to slow down to around 80km/h before the last corner (or well before it), and notify everyone to get in double file so that they are nicely double file entering into the last corner.
-The green flag should be waved closer to the s/f line, and not done so early... especially on a track where the distance to the s/f line is very short.
-DO NOT chat at all after you form the double-file (after tell them too), and leave a long enough 'quiet time' before saying "GREEN GREEN"
-You could very well ask everyone to use their pit limiter and that would create a steady flow of traffic and not have such uneven starts. It makes it easier by reacting only with a button press, though this might be too easy I guess.
I am all for having the starting procedure reviewed, it is for the better. It's just a shame that Mercury will be the 'only' ones to be made an example of from all this
At the start you try and have the best spatial awareness as possible, and I don't know if Bawbag was looking around trying to be careful, but the last thing he'd expect is someone braking in front and those cars becoming bunched up.
Yes you did... however, why was the pace car going 150km/h.....
If you want to give them time to get in double file, the pace car should be at a slow pace the moment you say go double file.
And if you watch the replay time and time again from Nyl1n's perspective, you can see Lastpunisher coming into him on the left even, and then Nyl1n brakes more than needed, and Bawbag comes straight into the back of him. This wasn't a light brake which would be easily avoidable, but a pretty hard jolt. Meanwhile Casper and LP just sail off into the distance from that weird pulsing jumpstart.... :zombie:
I wasn't referring to the penalty as a jump start for Merc, but a jump start from the other drivers. Because I am pretty sure other races have had jump starts and nothing was done about it.
I watched it and one more thing bring out confusion. No one seem to know what their origin place where at the grid. Maybe becourse of the safety car who took the pole position uh? The top cars changed lanes, was that an agreement?
Sugestions:
- Place the pace car in the end of starting cars (if it have to one)
- Let all keep their double file places. Makes the space a lot smaller but still room to warmup tires. Negative with this is that it can course crashes easy.
- Let the start be in single file. Maybe the best in this situation. Probably no need to bother about the s/f line.
I would say we should make the double file 2/3 corners before the last turn. In nearly all moe races i have seen, the start has been a complete mess with 3 cars besides each other before the green flag has been waved. This makes it even more difficult to get a clean start
+1 on pace car at the end of the grid on pace lap.
As for the pace lap itself, I think the safest way is single line, as Cawwa suggested, but not right behind the car in front so you can avoid pile ups on heavy brakings, like the one that caused the ZWR car to run into my back when the field braked to do the chicane in pace lap - no harm done, but avoidable.
The nose of your car should be BEHIND the butt of the car in front at all times.
Then when reaching s/f line, pit limiters on until there is a big green server message saying "GREEN", overtaking before start line would be forbidden.
Simple rules, but following that has been working for years in other sim leagues with rolling starts.
I was watching the replay in x.500 time, as I stated in my post. Also stated in my post that when I started moving over the gap was FREE and no one was braking, If I had indeed just saw the front 3 cars braking and used it to take out some of my competitors, don't you think I would have braked or let off before contact so that my car doesn't get affected?
This is the thing you guys arn't getting, it's easy to say oh move over to the right but you guys are only watching the damn replay, No one was expecting anyone to brake after the green flag thus I was moving into the slip stream and BEHIND the cars infront.
I don't think double file is the general problem, after all, anyone who has ever player NR2003 should know how it works, even on road tracks.
What we will most probably do is not give the green flag until the leader reaches the S/F. That gives a definite point where drivers can start expecting the flag coming out (still, that does not mean if no flag is given you can pull away). Also it leaves more time to set the grid.
Yes, Bawbag, we just watch the replay. That is something we all as drivers have to live with that our actions are judged by hindsight. Keep it in mind for the next time, as everyone else has to. We are not saying that you did it intentionally, if we had though that, Mercury would have been DQ'ed. We simply, as stated above, think that you could have avoided contact and not doing so is the reason for a penalty.
But that's my problem, you "think" I would have been able to avoid it, but I can safely say the only way I was avoiding that was if I hadn't been to unlucky to change my line at the wrong time or if I knew that the front 3 had to brake.
Now i'm sorry for this thread as it was started off by me, but I still don't get how you guys gave us the definate stop go penalty, but missed the driver chatting after the green flag?
I will stop posting about this here as it's useless even pleading my case and hopefully it goes smoothly next time.
Whats stupid is that this move to the left that Bawbag made which was avoidable, when he makes that move the OCR car is travelling at a faster speed than he is, and Punisher too, however despite the fact that the race has gone green N1lyn comes off the gas and applies 50% brake, and as BB is moving lines theres contact.
ANYONE watch that replay, the official one we've been punished by, not your own because apparently thats not real and they dont care what YOU saw, only what they see, and the point in which Bawbag makes the move he is FULLY intitled to do so, in complete safety as things are UNDER RACE CONDITIONS. So the car brakes ahead of him when there isnt actually any reason to do so, and this contact made whether you like it or not, comes from the braking car.
Its beyond me why someone would brake when the race is underway, and its a joke that the people organising the event cant even see an incident correctly when they're the ones expected to review these cases and deal with them fairly.
Hoellsen, Frankmd, tell me that the race isnt green when the OCR car brakes, that THAT braking isnt the actual reason the collision was started, also that someone isnt talking while the race is under green! Half the cars are WAY over the 50/80 limit, Casper was at 120kph when things went green FFS! Thats after he's been upto that speed, slowed right down to 90kph and then done the same thing again all in a matter of 2-3 seconds, causing people to brake when there really is no need for them.
Mercury wasnt the only reason for this incident, it was caused by the cars ahead and there irratic reactions to what they were seeing themselves, but apparently your just going to blame bawbag for everything which is just wrong IMO.
Putting a reason for a crash on the car in front of you, and putting away your own mistake is always wrong. You might be right, that the incident wouldnt have happened if cyber watched the green light correctly, but Nils was able to avoid crashing into the car in front of him (cyber), cause he reacted to the slow down, while it seems, that Rooney doesnt even watch, what the other cars do in front of him.
You need some more race overview there. It seems like he thinks "hey yeah, i get into the slipstream now" and stops checking what's actually going on, on the track... There is a long moment - even long enough, if you calculate the ocerseas lag in - to react to the slowing down of cyber, which Rooney didnt do. There was no place, Nils could go, he was trying to save his car, by not running into cyber (Belak). If Rooney would have look 50 meters more to what might come on the track, this wouldnt have happened. Therefor the penalty is given to the person who could have avoided the crash and didnt.
Besides the fact, that cyber gets away with a wrong start and a chat and wins it... I'm totally fine with that decision for the penalty of causing this accident.
Sorry Jykos, but the one car that I held the most sympathy for was the Ocrana car as they he was saving his own car, but Nils was able to react to the car infront braking as he had a long time to do so, when Casper started braking he was quite a long way infront of Nils as he had jumped the start by so much. Where as my intentions were getting the slip stream and best line through T1 but in doing so the one car which I had the least time to react to braked.
I can see why I am blamed for this but can't see how I was the only one punished as I wasn't the only one in the wrong.
But again, i'm sorry to everyone who was affected and hope that the admins will take more care next time in handing out penaltys, after all there was still nearly 6 hours of racing left to give out the stop and go penalty.
Hey Bawbag! No offense man but this is definetly and 100% your fault.
Before i just watched the replay i thought it was the car from behind that crashed into me, but it was the one from the right side. As we are starting in double file mode, it is quite clear to anyone out there, that there is a car on the other side of the track, and its completely stupid to change the line from right to left, knowing there is - or just might be - a car. also i started a position in front of you, and u saw me the whole time. Ok, i had to break which is unusual in this situation, but still u came to the left without really takin enough care. first corner does not win the race, did never, and will never ever. take care next time, i think the penalty is quite fair.
i dont know why uros broke in front, maybe he was just nervous starting from pole with some big red fire in the mirrors but still everyone has to pay more attention before just thinkin of his slipstream
illepall We didn't have a chance, even after we reviewed the replay.... and to be honest, Jonesy and I felt like we were being ignored during this situation. This was the last we heard of them:
