Quote from Hyperactive :

I would much rather see the whole F9/F10 menus to disappear. They are not realistic. At least F10 is totally unrealistic.

-1

Part of LFS's whole advancement in the tire modelling deparment is for the fact that you can see all these things happening. LFS has started a trend by having such information available in the car, and if LFS were to have that all taken away from it, it would be so bland and uninformative --- the complete opposite of what LFS tries to achieve.

The beauty of LFS is the fact that it shows more things happening to the car than any other simulation. Live suspension and tire data, as well as other interesting bits. LFS gives you information no other simulation does -- we get to see everything happening, as opposed to just "thinking" about it behind a mask like in other simulations (where you dont see this at all).

With a simulation, you want to bring out the bits that truly make a good example of it BEING a good simulation (ie You want to SHOW an example of how it is a good simulation, and what it does). That is why people claim the physics are so good in many areas of LFS, it's because we know what the car is doing and how each part is acting. Having a lack of information would make LFS really dull to be honest. And having these features doesn't mean it is ruining the whole "realistic" approach. As real as you may want LFS to be, you wouldn't be praising LFS if it wasn't for such features to tell you about all the things it is doing (tires, suspension, forces, downforce, etc).... and in knowing LFS is performing somewhat realistic calculations, it just makes the game all that more special and unique.

And to have Scawen's hard work on this specific part be tossed in the can, that really goes to show that you guys have a different approach to wanting to make a simulation --- perhaps you want it to be a bit TOO real for the tastes of an average gamer looking to be convinced the game is a damn good simulation.

As for the tire deformation in this tires view:

+/- 1

I don't mind if it is on there or not, but it really isn't all that important because the tire heat shown is all the data you'll ever need in telling you if your tire is deforming too much or too little from high/low cambers, and if the pressures are too high or too low. And testing the setup with those two attributes in mind is the main priority to getting the best grip out of the car. You don't really need to know if your tire is deforming too much, we don't have the risk of tires falling off the rim/wheel either.

Quote from Tweaker :

-1

Part of LFS's whole advancement in the tire modelling deparment is for the fact that you can see all these things happening. LFS has started a trend by having such information available in the car, and if LFS were to have that all taken away from it, it would be so bland and uninformative --- the complete opposite of what LFS tries to achieve.

GPL has the tire temperatures as well. And it does not need to show them during the race so why does LFS? Or the Nascar sims have the F4 menu (iirc) to show tire temps during races but I doubt why it is needed. Only reason I can think of is that players are too lazy to drive to the pits (or teleport to pits) to find out the tire temps. Of course it's a lot easier and pleasent when you have the exactly number and colors telling them by just pressing a button. Unrealistic.

I'm accepthing the "active data on tire temps" only if it's really used by real racing teams. It doesn't matter if the data is or is not available to the driver because the in LFS the player is the driver and the team. So if the teams' can monitor tire temps in real-time I see no harm, if the GTRs and formulas are able to do it too. But just because LFS wants to be ground-breaking or if someone else does something in some way, it doesn't mean that LFS should automatically follow, because the feature is "kool" or "usable".

Best example of this "kool" or "usable" feature is NK pro's pit board look function. A great idea, but why can't you set it to automatic and why does it need its own button? Good idea but bad implementation. Just like LFS' F9/F10 menus imho

Quote from Tweaker :

The beauty of LFS is the fact that it shows more things happening to the car than any other simulation. Live suspension and tire data, as well as other interesting bits. LFS gives you information no other simulation does -- we get to see everything happening, as opposed to just "thinking" about it behind a mask like in other simulations (where you dont see this at all).

Yeah, looks good but again not realistic. Nothing would be lost if these worked only in replays, for example.

Quote from Tweaker :

With a simulation, you want to bring out the bits that truly make a good example of it BEING a good simulation (ie You want to SHOW an example of how it is a good simulation, and what it does). That is why people claim the physics are so good in many areas of LFS, it's because we know what the car is doing and how each part is acting. Having a lack of information would make LFS really dull to be honest. And having these features doesn't mean it is ruining the whole "realistic" approach. As real as you may want LFS to be, you wouldn't be praising LFS if it wasn't for such features to tell you about all the things it is doing (tires, suspension, forces, downforce, etc).... and in knowing LFS is performing somewhat realistic calculations, it just makes the game all that more special and unique.

Yeah, looks good but again not realistic. Nothing would be lost if these worked only in replays, for example.

Quote from Tweaker :

And to have Scawen's hard work on this specific part be tossed in the can, that really goes to show that you guys have a different approach to wanting to make a simulation --- perhaps you want it to be a bit TOO real for the tastes of an average gamer looking to be convinced the game is a damn good simulation.

It is not about throwing stuff away, just the presentation needs to be improved. For me the F9/F10 is just eye candy. Of course you can see useful stuff in them, but, come on. If similar feature was in Gran turismo it would be totally unrealistic. Oh, it actually does have a similar system. And it's a sim too

Quote from Tweaker :

As for the tire deformation in this tires view:
+/- 1

I don't mind if it is on there or not, but it really isn't all that important because the tire heat shown is all the data you'll ever need in telling you if your tire is deforming too much or too little from high/low cambers, and if the pressures are too high or too low. And testing the setup with those two attributes in mind is the main priority to getting the best grip out of the car. You don't really need to know if your tire is deforming too much, we don't have the risk of tires falling off the rim/wheel either.

Tire deformation. Don't even get me started on this one. Even the current system of showing how much tread you have left...

Quote from Hyperactive :

Yeah, looks good but again not realistic. Nothing would be lost if these worked only in replays, for example.

Having only to see the cool features in replays or singleplayer would be even worse. People like to make their setups when online, and will actively change settings depending on what they see from the telemetry screens. Having the telemetry removed would be taking away a HUGE "do-it-yourself engineer" factor of racing online with LFS. The things shown are like having an engineer on your side, and the fact that you see them live make it even cooler.

The only thing to amaze people with a simulation is to see the forces and interaction LIVE while you play the game. Take RigsOfRods or Halflife 2 for example. When that game is presented to someone, they want to see if the simulation is at least what it says it is.... and showing how it works makes it truly the type of simulation that is more dynamic than your average racing game.

Lets not forget that LFS IS trying to become something realistic, but without anything being represented while in the game, it could easily be disregarded as "one of those simulations that are scripted" --- if you know what I mean.

It's the only thing that can truly convince people the game is being accurate and real as can be. It's a game emulating things that are real -- and it needs PROOF.

I think let the F? commands stay apart from the much wanted hardcore mode.

I can live with the hardcore mode hiding the telemetry views, but I would really hate to see LFS lose all those cool features from normal use online and offline (as some have suggested), as they have become such a standard in a simulation and when working on a setup.

Quote from Tweaker :

Having only to see the cool features in replays or singleplayer would be even worse. People like to make their setups when online, and will actively change settings depending on what they see from the telemetry screens. Having the telemetry removed would be taking away a HUGE "do-it-yourself engineer" factor of racing online with LFS. The things shown are like having an engineer on your side, and the fact that you see them live make it even cooler.

The only thing to amaze people with a simulation is to see the forces and interaction LIVE while you play the game. Take RigsOfRods or Halflife 2 for example. When that game is presented to someone, they want to see if the simulation is at least what it says it is.... and showing how it works makes it truly the type of simulation that is more dynamic than your average racing game.

Lets not forget that LFS IS trying to become something realistic, but without anything being represented while in the game, it could easily be disregarded as "one of those simulations that are scripted" --- if you know what I mean.

It's the only thing that can truly convince people the game is being accurate and real as can be. It's a game emulating things that are real -- and it needs PROOF.

For me the F9/F10 menus plus the suspension view during driving are realism killers. It is just so game-alike to have a menu or graphical presentation for something that doesn't even exist in real life. I like, no, I love the nk pro's realistic approach. When you are on the track, it is just you, the car and the track. No game stuff. Of course some stuff is needed to be presented in graphical form because of the limitation we have, pit boards are not enough.

Imho, these unrealistic things just make LFS more arcade. It's is just so easy to check your F10 for damage, check F9 and see that the tires will last one more lap. I understand the PROOF-part, but for me it works the opposite way.

Didn't anyone think that those abilities(seeing tire temp on the fly or seeing suspension) don't exist in real life simply because it wouldn't be practical/possible, and not necessarily because it wouldn't be a good idea to have them? Getting injured yourself in real life when you crash in LFS would also make it more realistic but I don't see anyone asking for that feature. Clearly limiting ourselves to reality is not always the best approach for every aspect of LFS.

If you don't want to view that information, THEN DONT HIT THAT BUTTON, I don't see where the problem is or why people would want to take features away. Personally I think having the option to view more information is always a good thing.

Telemetry and other information is available in the real world and these things are always used to guage suitability of setup including tyre choice and pressure/camber settings. In LFS we have "live" telemetry, and while this might not be usually available to a driver in the real world in real-time, much of it could be available to engineers. Certainly in the higher-tech motosports like F1 such live telemetry is available. Even though some of the tyre information we get in the simulator would not be available on a real-time basis it is still not a reason to say remove it altogether.
I wouldn't have any problem if the info available to the driver was more inline with the info in an engineer's update in real life (radio message to the driver) but to not have the info in the sim at all or to make it only available offline would be a step backwards and away from what is realistically available in real life.
Live telemetry coupled with post-race/practice telemetry and performance data are an important part of racing. In LFS we get to be the driver and in some ways the engineer. It's good to have control and access to this information, it adds depth to the whole sim.

Quote from Gunn :

Telemetry and other information is available in the real world and these things are always used to guage suitability of setup including tyre choice and pressure/camber settings. In LFS we have "live" telemetry, and while this might not be usually available to a driver in the real world in real-time, much of it could be available to engineers. Certainly in the higher-tech motosports like F1 such live telemetry is available. Even though some of the tyre information we get in the simulator would not be available on a real-time basis it is still not a reason to say remove it altogether.
I wouldn't have any problem if the info available to the driver was more inline with the info in an engineer's update in real life (radio message to the driver) but to not have the info in the sim at all or to make it only available offline would be a step backwards and away from what is realistically available in real life.
Live telemetry coupled with post-race/practice telemetry and performance data are an important part of racing. In LFS we get to be the driver and in some ways the engineer. It's good to have control and access to this information, it adds depth to the whole sim.

Again, the idea of car classes comes into my mind. With low-tech cars, like the XFG, XRT, LX4 etc. you just wouldn't even think about installing and using such systems. They cost too much, require people understanding them and in general the info you get from them isn't quite usable when the whole racing idea in those classes is more on the fun side of things instead of winning something special. The car class question is part of the problem imho. If the X cars in LFS are pure breed racing cars, track day cars or daily drives makes huge difference when you look at the information available in real-time for the driver&engineers&team et all. With the basic model you may have the ambient air temperature display as your only source of... well... anything. With the more advanced car you have some sensors logging data but the use of electronics and the tech level of these is quite low. Real-time data exists only at the highest levels of racing, simply because of its costs and benefits.

I find it a bit silly that people seriously want real-time telemetry data on non-racing cars.

It is not about using or not using the F9 menu for example. The F9 is the only way of getting the tire temperatures so you must use it. But as I said, it is a lot more easier and pleasent to get the exact information directly in graphical form. After all, it fits quite well with the perfect shift lights and damage displays (F10). Maybe we need traction circles, optimized path finders and automatic steering too then? Turning the steering wheel is a pita after all. Let the AI drive. Maybe LFS could make some coffee and play some records on he background while I'm watching the race? After all, I might get bored.

EDIT: show me a tire that has heat and wear sensors that can be used to provide real time data.

LFS isn't about being relative to costs and data acquisition of reallife, it is about being a simulation of driving... regardless if the telemetry is not available onboard in reallife. Think of LFS as a "laboratory" for testing a car and driving it. Sure LFS has its focus on racing, but is everything in LFS entirely realistic in that respect? Not at all, and not everything can be. Having a desire to have LFS become an 'uber' racing game with absolutely everything restricted 100% like reallife is just a ridiculous idea for a video game... and especially when you want to put a faceplate on it called "simulation".

Even though the devs have a desire to make something as real as possible, there are many things would easily be deemed necessary in order for players to be fascinated about the game. I've always thought of it as one of LFS's biggest selling points by having a "simulation feel" with having things presentable in a visual form... otherwise, like Gunn said, it would lose what it currently has, depth.

Some people have a desire to have an extremely realistic simulation on their computer, but if you take out the visual clues to which the simulation is acting, people will be clueless and frustrated... thus making LFS a game for people that are a bit too serious about being "real" (and not many people will play that, because that isn't fun for most). You can't have everything to be realistic in a video game, and taking a feature out (such as the telemetry huds) would just make Scawen's work ten times less enticing/convincing. And as said before, if someone really doesn't want those shown, you can just have a hardcore mode which removes all the unrealistic items from the game while you play online. You could always make it an option, and not just trash such a nice feature completely just because it isn't "real" (it's real in terms of how it presents the simulation though, that's the important part).

Being so persistent about having LFS be such a realistic game is fine and all, but there has to be exceptions when you make a video game for a mass audience. Surely people want LFS to be the most realistic thing out there, but just look at other simulations (not just racing sims) that go a bit overboard with the realism.... how stupid can you get? I know people want to truly 'feel' like they are in a car, plane, boat, etc.... but there has to be a line drawn with how real of an experience you want. And in this feature's case, it is something that creates better impressions about the game's physics that subliminally make you perceive the game as being more realistic than you expected. What if you showed someone LFS without any telemetry and just a fixed hood cam and nothing else? You wouldn't really get much of and "ooh and awe" out of that, as a lot of questions would arise about the things you don't see or cannot analyze.

I am, of course, viewing this topic through my own perspective. I have my own lines and borders where the realism is inside the borders and the arcade is outside. There are a lot of things that would be reaslitic but don't work in a game, in a sim, at all. Like earning money, paying for fuel or waiting hours to get something fixed in the car. But imho, (merely) realistic telemetry is one of those things that could be in LFS without making it too hard or frustrating. What I'm really trying to say is that the big problem with the current F9/F10 menus is their presentation and the way you get 100% accurate information anytime you want without really needing to think about it any further.

I just find it more exciting when you don't know everything and can't always be 100% sure if there is suspension damage or that the front left tire is overheating on the inside. It all adds up making LFS more enjoyable, instead of making it just easier. LFS is probably the only sim that has mini map kind of things, which make LFS seem a lot less sim than it actually is.

This conversation is kind of backlash what the conversation about "random" car failures was some time ago. Having electrical, hydraulic or just plain manufacturing errors making parts crack or even make you not able to finish a race was certainly one feature people didn't really seem to want in LFS. Simply because those incidents are very unwanted in real life, we could avoid them in our sim simply by not implementing them. It just needs a lot thinking and decisions to make sure that the line between realism and arcade is at right place.

Btw. You know how I feel about the bonnet view so no comment on that one

I just have to say that I'm with Hyperactive on this. I like the system like it is now, but it's not realistic at all. Making telemetry data visible only when in pits would not be too hardcore for everyone, imo.

Tire deformation in F9? Why?
- 1

Quote from frokki :

Making telemetry data visible only when in pits would not be too hardcore for everyone, imo.

And that would be also pretty easy to implement. And more reduced info for non-race cars.

This pretty much the same thing as in first person shooters (that tries to be realistic) where you usually have a stupid GUI saying the amount of bullets left on the magazine. In few games (e.g. Red Orchestra) there's only a text on the screen saying "magazine is heavy" or "magazine is light" when you change the clip.

Saying that F9 is important to have because tyre physics are so WIP so it's easier to test stuff and etc. in my opinion that's just an excuse, Scawen has probably more advanced ways (developer/debug modes) to test than watching a replay with F9 on the screen...

netKar Pro's approach to this is good in an idea level but the end result is not. In nKp have a feeling that I'm not getting all the info that I would get in real life, I've always thought that GUI interface kind of compensates the lack of real radio connection the the mechanics & pits, but currently LFS is going too far with that. The minimap has never bothered me but that could be easily replaced with a text on the screen (similar to blue/yellow flag texts) simply saying if there is traffic coming or not when you're going out of the pits.

It's just ridiculous that you can see everything in the replays too, the fastest hotlappers must feel like they have no privacy at all. I can definately understand why so many people feel it so arcade because of this stuff because LFS is too much like a physics playground. LFS has to take this step to become more hardcore (together with heavilly reducing car setup options) at some point.

edit: removed few things

Quote from deggis :

(together with heavilly reducing car setup options)

Just because it is unlikely that someone would spend lots of money changing everything you can think of on Starion, to go racing, does not make it unrealistic to have those options available for the XR GT. Unusual yes, but I don't see it as unrealistic or arcade in any way. IMO it's not really a problem.

What is somewhat of a problem is that it's a very steep learning curve to understand what everything does, but people get too worked up about setups. Most people seemed obsessed about getting that WR set and getting that last percentage of fuel out of the tank, when in reality it's how good you are at driving that makes more of a difference.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Just because it is unlikely that someone would spend lots of money changing everything you can think of on Starion, to go racing, does not make it unrealistic to have those options available for the XR GT. Unusual yes, but I don't see it as unrealistic or arcade in any way. IMO it's not really a problem.

What is somewhat of a problem is that it's a very steep learning curve to understand what everything does, but people get too worked up about setups. Most people seemed obsessed about getting that WR set and getting that last percentage of fuel out of the tank, when in reality it's how good you are at driving that makes more of a difference.

I agree with you there, in principle. The problem is that, personally, I get as much enjoyment out of tweaking setups as I do from the racing itself. You've heard me discussing gear ratios in your GRC threads--for me, getting the "perfect" set of ratios is as satisfying as winning a race, even when I know perfectly well that it doesn't make any difference on the track. I actually use the skidpad to test grip, I've had the AI run hundred-lap races by itself so I could monitor tire wear, and I lie awake nights trying to figure out the effects different LSD settings have on handling (they still confuse me).

Yes, I'm crazy. But the point of LFS is to have fun, and I'm having fun. Suspension Damage I can do without, but don't take away my tire monitors and force view! At the very least, you should be able to see tire wear and temperatures when in the pits--it's the only way you can tune camber settings, and it can be determined on any car just by looking at the tires and poking them with a cheap digital thermometer.

Few questions:
1) is the tire wear even noticeable on the road cars? Does one really need to see the exact tire wear at the F9? I'm asking because the road cars would be the ones who would need to live without these advanced telemetry infos, if there were some modifications made to the system... Race cars are of course high-tech and in general have all kinds of telemetry data and widgets in use.
2) Why do you need F10 at all? Should there be one F10 for the engine and gearbox damage too just for us to see that there is something wrong with the ingition, or the 12th tooth on the 5th gear's cog is damaged?
3) ..ehm can't think more right now...

Quote from Tweaker :

I can live with the hardcore mode hiding the telemetry views, but I would really hate to see LFS lose all those cool features from normal use online and offline (as some have suggested), as they have become such a standard in a simulation and when working on a setup.

Exactly right. Make it a server side option even - that's fine if it MUST be messed with, but taking it out is a poor idea. Tweaker explains why in sufficient detail and he's bang on .

Quote from Hyperactive :

Few questions:

I'll help you out with some more ridiculous questions:

1) Why do we have virtual mirrors? Maybe those should be taken away because they are unrealistic?

2) Why do we have an endless assortment of wheel colors to choose from?

3) Who gives us all these free tyres in our garage?

4) Why do we have 5 different horns to magically change while driving?!? Maybe we should ask an engineer to install a different one each time?

5) Why can we magically change the side the steering column is on in our cars?

6) Why can we change our helmets on the fly when out on the track? Maybe we should have to pull into the garage to change it?

7) How come Jack D's Steakhouse is never open???

8) How come the female passenger looks so uncomfortable in an RAC's leather interior?



----

It's playability of multiple options versus realism. Lets not start making the game even more restricted....

9) Why you want LFS to be physics simulation rather than racing simulation?

@Tweak (slightly in jest, but with a hint of seriousness)

1. I say get rid of them, they're not needed
2. Because you can spray your wheels in real life, or get them powder coated in almost any colour anyway
3. Read the sidewalls - that's who
4. Your local racing hardware store will sell various horns, and they don't add much weight.
5. Maybe everyone owns two of each - one LHD the other RHD?
6. Helmet sized door pockets (the Stratos has them, why not the XFG!)
7. Closed for refurbishment. Open in Q4 2007
8. With you driving ANYONE would look uncomfortable in the RAC

Easy. Now ask me some hard ones!

Why water is wet?

Only between 0 and 100 centigrade. For the majority of the temperature range it isn't.

Why is it wet, not when

Quote from Tweaker :

I'll help you out with some more ridiculous questions:

I'd be interested to know which of the questions was ridiculous? If you want F10/F9 graph overlays to show suspension data and damage why wouldn't you want an F10+ menu to show engine damage? With your logic it would be the obvious next step. It would show, emphasize and demonstrate very clearly how sophisticated and complex LFS' engine and transmission damage calculations, physics, are.

Quote from Tweaker :

Why is it wet, not when

Because it is a liquid between 0-100C.