Guys

I have bought S2 just a couple of weeks ago.
I had been running rFactor with a gamepad (yea yea) but I like LFS so much more that I ran out to buy a wheel, a Momo Black Racing wheel.
Anyway, installed, everything right, and FF works quite well, after following setting suggestions from some people here in the forum. Thanks!

However, I am a bit dissapointed with the track feedback, ie bumps, curbs, walls, etc.

If I drive at 200kph over the curbs in a chicane I get no feedback from the curbs, the same as running on the tarmac.
If I tag a wall at SouthCity while running a bitwide on the exit, again no feedback from the contact.

I get a little engine vibration at low Rpms and resistance with speed thats it.
Am I doing something wrong? Or does LFS just not have this implemented yet? illepall

Please suggestions. LFS is much better than ISI engine games, but in those I could set feedback appropriately. Thanks!

Excuse any english mistakes, below my settings

In LFS FF -> Yes FForce -> 100 WheelTurnComp -> 0

In Control Panel -> First setting 100 other 2 -> 0

That depends on the curb. Some of LFS's curbs are flat, others are profiled.

Vain

Ah that sucks.
Especially since all tracks come with the game and arent like addon tracks.
I mean, if I as much as ride on a curb, like for example the turn 2-3 chicane in BW, I should get SOME feedback versus staying flat on the tarmac. illepall
And what about the contact feedback? I only get feedback when I crash and basically kill my driver. Hmm.
It must be the one thing I really miss from GTL/GTR2, you felt anything, even a tiny bump on the road.
Well, I guess there's S3 to hope for.

What are your FFB settings in the Windows Control Panel > Game Controllers?

There are four:

Overall Effects Strength
Spring Effect Strength
Damper Effect Strength
Centering Spring Strength

I have the same wheel and use 50% overall, 150% spring, 150% damper. Centering spring is disabled. I got lots of feedback on curbs, bumps, etc. so I think you have something configured incorrectly.

Overall Effects Strength 100
Spring Effect Strength 0
Damper Effect Strength 0
Centering Spring Strength Checked and 0 illepall

I saw these settings in some posts. I will try your settings. Thanks! Its good to hear that you feel stuff especially if you have the same wheel.

Those you already had work nicely. I use them myself.
Did you set Force Feedback to the correct device? The force feedback should be very noticable. While driving the forces on the wheels should try to center the steering wheel, while driving on a curb you should either notice it's profile or, if it's flat, at least a slight change in forces on the steering wheel.
While oversteering the wheel should noticable try to countersteer (due to the forces on the tyres, like in real life).

Vain

Vain

Force feedback due to car physics works very nicely. I can feel oversteer and wheel centering under acceleration, steering stiffening at higher speeds, etc.

However, steering should get much stiffer under braking and THAT is not noticeable.

And my biggest concern has more to do with artifacts on the track, curbs, bumps, walls, etc. It is as though they dont exist when feeling it on the wheel.
Its weird, if I ride a curb at 20kph, I will get feedback when getting on and off the curb, but at 200kph, none. Hmm. illepall
And If I ride over big bumps I expect to feel them on my wheel (try Interlagos straigth in anyothheer game), and I dont feel big or small bumps, or when driving around a walled circuit, feel the wall when I have small contact, or contact with tire barriers, or small contact with other cars.
That kind of feedback is very necessary.

You get all feedback that is generated from the forces on the wheels. And none more, because that's the only source where a steering wheel gets it's torque from.
But you are right, the track surface of LFS tracks is extremely smooth. It's basically all brand new tarmac. Only South City has a few real bumps in it.

But be aware that LFS doesn't generate any force feedback without a physical explanation. Games like GTL create f.e. small vibrations in the wheel while standing still because in real life the chassis of the car is vibrating. The chassis in LFS is also subject to forces from the engine, but these actually don't create torque around the steering axis, and thus LFS doesn't apply any FF-effects from that.
Similarly games from the GTR/GTL series create a strange understeering effect that simulates the chassis movement of the vehicle. Actually there is no torque around the steering wheel, GTL just adds it, because people think something should be happening while understeering.
So the torque around the steering wheel is realistic considering the virtual enviroment. But LFS doesn't have faked effects, even if people would like that. That's why it doesn't have effects for random bumps in the road, because the virtual track model doesn't have those bumps. If it had LFS would generate a correct FF effect.

Vain

Unlike many other games, the FF in LFS is 100% derived from the rotational forces acting on the steering column through the front tyres. That means, only if the front tyres are twisted either left or right due to the physics calculations - only then you will feel it in the FF. If you drive straight over a bump, the wheel is not twisted to the side, and thus no FF is generated.

In real life, you will feel that bump through the car body, and through the wheel because it moves with the rest of the car. What does not happen is a rotation of the wheel, but a quick up/down bump - the catch is, rotation is the ONLY thing a FF wheel can do. Many other games fake these bumps by doing a quick left/right jerk, but Scawen has made the decision that he will not implement any faked FF effects, and I'm glad he did.

But I see I've been beaten by Vain

Vain 'and Androind "edited"

Thanks for your explanation. This makes sense. Everything in LFS is physics and model driven, and not triggered like in some ISI games (I wouldnt know really, just assuming, just like their sound is not generated either)

Perhaps the Devs should make more irregular tracks then. If you guys have driven in any Amateur league and have had a chance to race different circuits, you know this is not the case. No circuit is smooth, not close, unless brand new and by Tilke. Heh.
And with bumps, there are critical speeds or loss of grip, it adds a different dimension to bumpy sectors/corners. LFS couldnt be perfect I know.

Suggestion for S3.

And I still dont know why running through a tire barrier or tagging the wall generates no feedback. If FF only comes from the wheels, I guess maybe thats why, but it happens in openwheelers as well.
I have no clue about the numerical methods behind programming FF so can't really diagnose what is wrong. Its just a bit frustrating to see physical damage on your car from contact, and your wheel says nothing.

Openwheelers are a bit strange at the moment, having much more sturdy and impact resistant wheels than the other cars. As on feeling impacts to tyre stacks, I have to say for me it largely depends on how I impact. Sometimes I manage to plough through them without much effect on me, feeling almost nothing, other times it majorly screws up the car - then I also feel alot of FF (probably due to the rotation of the whole car).

Regarding bumps unsettling the car mid corner, have you tried driving South City with the RaceAbout or the LX cars? That's fun

To Android

Well hopefully Scawen will change his mind.
If I get bumped from behind in the first corner, I expect to feel the bump, and not just the FF after I have lost control and spun. If I tag a wall from pushing the limits, I wanna feel it, it adds much to the feeling of being there, if interacting with the track is reflected on the wheel. If I run side by side and there is bumping, its very important to feel it, for relative position to other cars. Very important.
I understand that triggers are not 'real', but guys guys, not EVERYTHING can be modeled.
Somebody, please make an unofficial patch in the meantime!
To cure my first small dissapointment with LFS. None other!

Thanks guys. At least I know it is not bad configuration in my PC.

"Raceabout, which are those? "

Quote from das9125 :

I saw these settings in some posts. I will try your settings. Thanks!

No, don't try them. Just stay with your previous ("100-0-0") settings. They are even recommended by Scawen himself. Some people just prefer weirder settings for their weird personal preferences, though usually to prevent some weird wheel oscillation problems that are not supposed to be there if everything works perfectly.

Quote :

Centering Spring Strength Checked and 0 illepall

This is because some bug in the old drivers version. It should have been fixed in the latest (v4.60, you probably have it already) version but I'm not sure so just leave it checked and 0% just in case.

And about the curbs question you got already answered but it is really simple, tracks in LFS are just way too smooth (or curbs are way too smooth).

Most LFS players are very happy that there are no faked FF effects.

Thus, to model other effects like longitudinal acceleration (you hit something, you were hit) or vertical acceleration (you drive over a bump) you'd have to introduce other feedback devices that can exert such forces on you.
The wheel can't. A wheel can't make you think you were hit from behind. A wheel can't make you think you are driving over a bump (if the bump is equal on both wheels). A wheel can only exert a torque, which is caused by the applying forces on the wheels.

And yes, many drivers here have real life experience from racetracks, myself included. Not necessarily as a race driver, but from trackdays, or race-license courses.

Vain

Deggis, thanks. Will follow your advice

Vain

It makes very much sense from a physics point of view.
There is only one axis and not three on a steering wheel, the three required for such longitudinal movements.
And I know LFS prides itself at simulating everything.
However, since such is not possible due to hardware limitations (im sure even $1000 wheels cant move in X or Y axis) then exceptions should be made for practical reasons I think. Triggered, or faked as you call it, FF effects provide a driver with physical feelings of the boundaries of his car around other cars and around the track.
Yes a simulation, but one also has to be practical and provide the best experience. If it cant be done because of limitations, then why not a workaround instead of plain omission?

I definetly disagree.
But great reply Thanks Vain for the explanation

das9125, go to the view options in LFS and look at the g force sliders. These will simulate how your head will be bounced around from the car accelerating, braking, or being hit or hitting something. They can add to the immersion factor immensely. Once you get the wheel force feedback and these sliders set right, then you can become so immersed in driving the cars that your mind will be tricked into thinking you actually feel the car.

There has been many times that I've tensed up at the moment I loose it in a chicane heading into the tires or the wall. At Westhill in the FZR, I often find myself leaning into the turns as I lap. That's how immersive and how into LFS you can get. With all other aspects of driving being simulated so well, the force feedback, the visual, the sounds, the only thing left is the seat-of-the-pants feel and you really can trick the mind into thinking you feel the car when you really get into it.

Quote from deggis :

No, don't try them. Just stay with your previous ("100-0-0") settings. They are even recommended by Scawen himself.

Those settings are recommended by Scawen for the Logitech Momo black?

That's 100% overall, 0% spring, 0% damper? And what with the centering spring?

HEY THERE BOyS AND GIrLs........anyways try this I have the same wheel and it is a cool setting to try if you haven't tried it already....

go to the cfg. file in your lfs folder and find the

FF Steps 128 and change that to 256 and see how you like it....Other then that just go to the control pannel and crack that bitch up to 150% overall forcefeed back if you are not a girlyman.....I'm sure you can't say it's hard to feel stuff from there

Quote from theblackrabbi :

go to the cfg. file in your lfs folder and find the

FF Steps 128 and change that to 256 and see how you like it....

What does that do?

Quote from Lateralus :

Those settings are recommended by Scawen for the Logitech Momo black?

That's 100% overall, 0% spring, 0% damper? And what with the centering spring?

It's recommended for all Logitech wheels. Damper and Spring should be set to 0% because these forces are so to say coming from the drivers and not from the game, so those will just interefe with the FFB in LFS. Centering spring of course off (0%), you don't want to use that on any game that has force feedback.

I thought you were using that kind settings to fix wheel oscillation problems or something.

Quote from Lateralus :

What does that do?

It's basicly the resolution of FF "steps". Explanation by Scawen: http://forum.rscnet.org/showpo ... p=2526577&postcount=9

Quote from theblackrabbi :

go to the control pannel and crack that bitch up to 150% overall forcefeed back if you are not a girlyman.....I'm sure you can't say it's hard to feel stuff from there

I will say it is hard to feel stuff from there. That would mask the suttle little FF you feel from other things and it is also very unrealistic. I use 60 in windows and 35-50 in LFS. Have you every heard the saying "less is more"?

Quote from mrodgers :

...

I agree with that, I have it set to 100% in the Profiler, though. LFS is now 30-50 for me. I noticed it when fooling around with flatspots - at 60% I could barely feel them, while at 30% they were much more apparent.

Quote from AndroidXP :

I agree with that, I have it set to 100% in the Profiler, though. LFS is now 30-50 for me. I noticed it when fooling around with flatspots - at 60% I could barely feel them, while at 30% they were much more apparent.

It really depends on how I feel. Sometimes I dont want any force really, and other times when get all out I crank it up and have a war with it. It's fun once you get into racing 200 lfs and 150 in the profile. But at the same time for most people turning it lower is their thing. Last time I was using mine I had it at 100 LFS FF and like 30 in the profliler for the momo. And setting it to 256 setting in the cfg made it nice, atleast at the higher levels I thought you could feel more of the road, grass, bumps, atleast for me with the black momo.

On my G25 I can't go over 100% in the Logitech Profiler, or else it will start buggering up. Not just strong forces, but clearly wrong ones. I'd also recommend leaving the windows setting the same (at 100%) and tweaking the strength in LFS only, as otherwise I found the FF felt rather washed out. By the way, Win:100/LFS:50 is not the same as Win:50/LFS:100! I used to have a pretty strong FF setting earlier, but it really does mask out the fine details. Rough stuff like driving on the grass gets stronger with more FF, but the subtle ones vanish.

But then, everyone has to find out for himself, I guess.

Quote from mrodgers :

There has been many times that I've tensed up at the moment I loose it in a chicane heading into the tires or the wall. At Westhill in the FZR, I often find myself leaning into the turns as I lap. That's how immersive and how into LFS you can get. With all other aspects of driving being simulated so well, the force feedback, the visual, the sounds, the only thing left is the seat-of-the-pants feel and you really can trick the mind into thinking you feel the car when you really get into it.

Im not the only one that does that then

As for the ffb it tells you everything you need to know through the front wheels e.g. Turning to counter steer automatically. It doesnt move to the bumps etc which you wouldnt feel through the wheel. PC simulators, where you sit in front of a pc will never give the 100% feelign of being in the car due to the noise, rattle, vibrations but those you do not feel through the wheel. Personally for me if the fake ffb was added i would hope to dear god that there would be someway to turn it off.

As for settings i use 100% in cp and anthing between 15% and 60% in lfs depending on the car and what im doing.