Alright, I need some help from people who are able to actually put down some strong arguments which can be backed up properly.

I have a friend-of-a-friend who is absolutely convinced that GT4 (yes, Gran Turismo) is a 1:1 representation of the real world, and that there is "no way a car would drift that fast or spin that fast in real-life, as they do in LFS".

He's fairly low-tech in terms of physics-knowledge, so explaining to him that GT4 doesn't actually simulate anything at all does not work really well. Even shoving the fact that GT4 doesn't even have a clutch does not impress him. He'll still fall back to "The car still responds exactly as it should".

I've already pointed out to him that the cars in GT4 do not even actually understeer or oversteer, and that grip loss is probably calculated by some fixed formula of ''tire type * speed * angle'' or whatever.

How can I form an all-powerful, 100% success-guaranteed destructive waterfall of arguments which will cause him to stop hammering LFS for its unrealistic approach to grip, and cause him to stop worshipping GT4? In theory this should be as easy as taking candy from a baby, but for some reason he doesn't yield.

Reward for helping out will be free cookies.

show him the slowmotion vid(s) from lfs, showing how realistic it really is..

http://don.vn.cz/s2/vids/slowmotion_tyres.avi

Hmm, i was just playing GT4 about an hour ago.
It isnt really tire physics related, but get him to send a very front heavy car over a jump, front stays up in the air even when the rear of the car hits the jump. it doesnt change attack angle at all.
also, maybe, tune one of the GT4 cars to the same spec as say, the XFR (i used a polo gti :shrug and compare the two games side by side for feel, and physics, it REALLY shows how much more superior LFS is!

tell him to try taking a 360 spin..then you can tell him what a simulator it is!!

Quote :

How can I form an all-powerful, 100% success-guaranteed destructive waterfall of arguments which will cause him to stop hammering LFS for its unrealistic approach to grip, and cause him to stop worshipping GT4?

Why do you feel you have to prove him wrong? Why not just let him enjoy his game and you enjoy yours? What are you trying to prove? That your opinion is more valid than his? So what?

al, it's always fun to prove people wrong, especially if you can rub it in their face.

Does he turn the aids off in GT4? IF he doesn't then tell him to and he'll see how much easier it is to spin. Also, tell him to buy the FORD GT, and tune it. Nitrous, engine, and everything else that makes it faster.(about 750,000 credits is needed to tune) Do not put a spoiler on. Have him hit the Nitrous coming out t2 of the long oval. Then watch how it powers up to 270 or more. Ask him if he thinks that's realistic.

edit: Cookies please.

Quote from al heeley :

Why do you feel you have to prove him wrong? Why not just let him enjoy his game and you enjoy yours? What are you trying to prove? That your opinion is more valid than his? So what?

I don't think he's trying to do that. He just want the proof for the stubburn(spelling?) people who just don't get it.
I know one of them too..

Quote from al heeley :

Why do you feel you have to prove him wrong? Why not just let him enjoy his game and you enjoy yours? What are you trying to prove? That your opinion is more valid than his? So what?

The reason is simple; because he doesn't do the same for me. He can't come into my room once when I'm playing LFS, without trying to tell me that GT4 is so much better in every single way and that it was made by flawless, untouchable Gods and that LFS sucks so much because it's unrealistic in every way and it didn't require a team of xxx people to create and market and whatever.

He's wrong, yet he thinks he is right, and in his own little world he knows he is right. I just want to teach him an important lesson of the possibility of being wrong, and accepting that. It's something you learn to do at a young age, but he is 23 and still hasn't come to terms with this reality.

Quote from Rappa Z :

al, it's always fun to prove people wrong, especially if you can rub it in their face.

Does he turn the aids off in GT4? IF he doesn't then tell him to and he'll see how much easier it is to spin. Also, tell him to buy the FORD GT, and tune it. Nitrous, engine, and everything else that makes it faster.(about 750,000 credits is needed to tune) Do not put a spoiler on. Have him hit the Nitrous coming out t2 of the long oval. Then watch how it powers up to 270 or more. Ask him if he thinks that's realistic.

edit: Cookies please.

No use, he won't acknowledge anything wrong with the technical stuff in GT4, no matter how messed up something is. And yes, he does drive without any aids, but he still doesn't think that it's strange that a formula one car can be driven smoothly and without any throttle control, without TC or any other aid on.

Tell him to try to power-oversteer/totally drift a high-powered fwd car in real life.
GT4 was a massive step backwards for GT in my opinion.

Tell him to try and flip a car in GT4, then punch him in the face for being so ignorent.

That's tough. IMO your best bet is some good real life videos, and the same thing in LFS, and again the same thing in GT4. It should be easy enough to find circumstances where GT4 will be nothing like the real footage. LFS is accurate enough that it should look pretty damn similar whatever you try to recreate.

Some drifting videos are probably a great start, LFS doesn't have the largest drifting community of any race sim (to my knowledge) for no reason.

Show him some real life footage of some clip cup or other similar racing action. Point out the inside rear wheels lifting off the road during hard cornering. Get him to try to emulate that in GT4. Get him to try to do a donut and/or handbrake turn in GT4.

Get him to drive full speed in an Audi R8 in to the wall at after the long straight at New York. The car should be beyond recognition in real life, but GT4 has no damage (supposedly for licencing reasons, but it might be because they can't be arsed to program it). Nuff said.

Quote from duke_toaster :

Get him to drive full speed in an Audi R8 in to the wall at after the long straight at New York. The car should be beyond recognition in real life, but GT4 has no damage (supposedly for licencing reasons, but it might be because they can't be arsed to program it). Nuff said.

Ok, now, that's a lame reason.. Damage has nothing to with how real it is.

I also can't describe why LFS is more real, because i'm no physics expert, or anything, i go simply by the feel, and the facts that i know.
GT4 is a good game, but that's it, it's a game. Everything is so simplified, you don't know where you can grab onother thenth of a second, nor in some other sims for that matter.
I only feel this in LFS and RBR
You can't do donuts, you can't flip your car, those are some hard prooves that something is very wrong with physics.

Tell him to drive a car.

I take it he has never driven a powerful car near the limit... well neither have I, but I have taken the time to study the physics of racing from tires to suspensions. I am no expert and I can't do the math, but I understand how the car should behave.

I think the only way to convince him is to buy a seat for him in a performance driving school. Then he will learn about the circle of grip, steering with the throttle, power oversteer vs grip/slip angle oversteer, weight transfer etc.

Seeing as that is probably prohibitively expensive, try to demonstrate steering with the throttle. I am sure he has heard announcers talk about it while watching racing on TV. Try to get it to work in GT4... I doubt it will.

Also show him what a difference suspension and tire pressure settings make in LFS. I doubt GT4 setting cause anywhere near as much difference.

But, you probably won't convince him; possibly he just does it to piss you off anyway. Just smile and wave and tell him to go back to playing his game.

Quote from Don :

show him the slowmotion vid(s) from lfs, showing how realistic it really is..

http://don.vn.cz/s2/vids/slowmotion_tyres.avi

My gosh, that's awesome! Are there any more like this?

Quote from Iron :

My gosh, that's awesome! Are there any more like this?

Search on youtube for Live for speed and slowmotion or tyre, you'll get loads of good movies (Although maybe not always as excellent as the movie posted above).

I havent played GT4 but, if the guy drives a car, you could compare cornering speeds, pick a 'normal' car in GT4 and go around a normal corner, and let him try to recreate that in real life (with a crash helmet perhaps :P)

As some already mentioned, doing donuts and drifting is something were most racing games fail.

Quote from Jertje :

He's fairly low-tech in terms of physics-knowledge, so explaining to him that GT4 doesn't actually simulate anything at all does not work really well. Even shoving the fact that GT4 doesn't even have a clutch does not impress him. He'll still fall back to "The car still responds exactly as it should".

Quote from Jertje :

He can't come into my room once when I'm playing LFS, without trying to tell me that GT4 is so much better in every single way and that it was made by flawless, untouchable Gods and that LFS sucks so much because it's unrealistic in every way and it didn't require a team of xxx people to create and market and whatever.

He's wrong, yet he thinks he is right, and in his own little world he knows he is right.

Quote from Jertje :

he won't acknowledge anything wrong with the technical stuff in GT4, no matter how messed up something is.

He sounds like the type of chap that just can't be reasoned with anyways, no matter how you back it up.

So as you say he's a "friend of a friend" rather than a friend of yours,
why not just put a "LFS S2 licensed drivers only" sign on your door and keep him out of it!

You could let him try LFS on a decent wheel setup (if you have one)
If he's ever been anywhere near a car he should feel that LFS is superior
to GT4 by miles..

Or you could point out that on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_racing_simulators

which has a comparison of racing simulators (obviously), GT4 is not mentioned.. I wonder why... maybe it's not a simulator

Quote from DFS_MadFred :

which has a comparison of racing simulators (obviously), GT4 is not mentioned.. I wonder why... maybe it's not a simulator

Best argument yet. Public acceptance that LFS and others are a simulator, and that GT4 is only a game should be a proof in its own that GT4 has poor simulation qualities.

Next step, show him some japanese drifting movies. One particularly cool show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K02k_8GFebc

Also, show him the Ruf CTR movie of that crazy guy dribing around on the Nurb, and ask your friend why the car seems to have so low grip and why the pilot turns his wheel around frantically like he does. Powerful cars without traction control do that. That's why our driving in LFS requires that and GT4 doesn't. Because their grip model sucks and is only emulating reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... ;mode=related&search=

While LFS is probably less unrealistic than GT4, its certainly not near perfect. I would say, until it IS 'near perfect', its pointless to try and proof that LFS is what it isn't!

Either: the guy is too thick to be able to cope with reason, logic and evidence, and prefers to believe marketing..... And anyway, GT4 has loads of REAL CARS and loads of REAL TRACKS, so of course it is more realistic...
SimpleIdiotLogic® says that real tracks + real cars = realistic handling
and conversely that 'fake' cars and 'fake' tracks = 'fake' handling

Or: he has a low opinion of you and cannot concieve that something you like (but he doesn't) could possibly be better than something he likes (but you don't) in any way.

Or: he knows that LFS is more realistic, but he prefers the huge licenced content and more accessible (read: less skill required) gameplay of GT4. However, he knows that it is 'cool' to be more 'realistic', and he also knows that you are more attached emotionally to LFS that he is to GT4. So rather than admit the mildly embarassing truth, he has fun by winding you up all the time, pretending to believe that GT4 is more real than LFS... are you letting him get to you ?

so which is it? (should really be a poll hehe)

Quote from col :

SimpleIdiotLogic® says that real tracks + real cars = realistic handling
and conversely that 'fake' cars and 'fake' tracks = 'fake' handling

Your whole post perfectly explains one guy that i know, that is claiming this same thing, that GT4 is uber simulation, and that LFS is no simulation because there are fake cars and tracks, so it basically doesn't simulate anything?? illepall

Anyway, he is a Playstation and GT fanboy.
The best bit in our discussion was when he said that only PS2 supports 900 degrees rotation!??
He didn't believed me when i said that PC also supports it, and that on PC you can set what rotation you want per individual car.
He, then said, "wanna bet in 100 euros that PC doesn't support 900 degree rotation"
Then i posted a video from "lol dual monitors" thread, and he deleted all posts, saying it was off topic.. illepall Now that i prooved him wrong, he deleted all the posts from the two uf us(he's a mod on that forum).
I was LMAO..
Now i keep that video in my signature on that forum to rub it in his face..

Boris - if you ever need a hand to wind the guy up, I'm sure you could easily get a few willing recruits from here.