My MX-5 and my Reynard will correct oversteer automatically. However, I'll either have slid off the road or hit a tree/armco in the time it would take, and at the very least crapped my pants. Thus I countersteer quicker (ahead of the rotation of the car) to stop it quickly and regain control.

In LFS if I let the G25 do it's stuff, then sure it will, but you'll never be competative doing so - you need a jab of opposite lock manually.

If you don't need to, then I suspect you are just slow.

Also, in real life fear of hitting something triggers the reponse, whereas in LFS you can test things that would be suicidal in real life.

If you're just mucking around with the car no shit it'll correct and then head off in a straight line. When you're actually racing though the car definately won't be pointing in the right direction where you want to go. What I saw in your vid was just pointless. I didn't see much from your vid, I can't really understand how you can sit for from the screen and have your wheel so high. Maybe if you showed a bit more of you actually racing and it countersteering perfectly everytime you oversteered you'd have some merit.

Quote from jankes :

Exactly, I know what you mean but unfortunately it doesn't look like this in LFS, the car will simply recover by itself without my intervention. That's what I'm talking about. I would like LFS to require skills in this matter, right now it's not the case. Apart from that I consider LFS the best simulation out there.

You read but you just do not understand do you.

1) There is NO falut in the operation of the force feedback within LFS.
2) The G25 is working as it should and doing what LFS tells it to.
3) Cars DO automatically countersteer in real life.

There is a HUGE difference between letting the car do all the countersteer and you helping it so that you get the car back into shape quicker etc. If you let the car do the work you will be far far slower than if you assist in the correction and even that will be slower than not letting the back end step in the first place.

I really think you need to book some time on a skid pan so you actually understand what you are talking about because at the moment you are wrong BUT you also do not want to believe you are wrong even with everyone here trying to let you see this.

What sim/game do you believe operates correctly so we can see where you are coming from.

Quote from Davo :

If you're just mucking around with the car no shit it'll correct and then head off in a straight line. When you're actually racing though the car definately won't be pointing in the right direction where you want to go. What I saw in your vid was just pointless. I didn't see much from your vid, I can't really understand how you can sit for from the screen and have your wheel so high. Maybe if you showed a bit more of you actually racing and it countersteering perfectly everytime you oversteered you'd have some merit.

Exactly, although the slide is "automatically" corrected, it takes longer to do so as if you were to do it manually, and it is likely that you will end up facing in the wrong direction afterwards, normally wide of the turn.

Quote from jankes :

the car will simply recover by itself without my intervention. That's what I'm talking about.

You keep saying that.. over and over... but it is NOT. POSSIBLE.

What you are claiming is that if the rear end comes loose, you can let go of the wheel and with no driver intervention, the car will recover perfectly every time. For instance, you are heading into a gentle curve and let go of the wheel, and LFS magically steers you back on track. You're heading into a tight hairpin way too fast and lose it, but LFS magically corrects the spin, adjusts your throttle and braking, and holds the wheel at the perfect angle to get you through the turn. Bullshit. You'll just slam into a wall if you do that, just like you did in the video.

The game doesn't do what you are saying it's doing, ever. It can't.

You obviously have the ability to record and post videos. Instead of repeating "my video doesn't show it" again and again, why don't you just record a video that does show it, OK? Otherwise we are just spinning our wheels.

make a video of you setting a good time with the lx6 around blackwood or another circuit

Quote from Eric Tetz :

So, the rear end comes loose, the car begins to countersteer, you take your hands off the wheel and instead of the wheel going all the way to the lock, it automagically stops at the exact steering angle needed to get you through the current turn, given your current car, setup, balance, speed, slip angle, throttle/braking inputs, etc.? I don't see how that's possible. LFS doesn't have any kind of assisted steering option.

Maybe you're in spectator mode watching the AI drive? *lol*

I don't understand a thing now, these are the words of Eric Tetz a few posts above and that's exactly what it looks like. Everyone keeps cristicize me but the guy said it was impossible...
I repeat, I DO BELIEVE CARS BEHAVE IN THIS MANNER even though I have not experienced it. LFS implementation is somewhat suspicious to me though.

The LFS implementation is completely right - the only thing that is not 100% spot on is the FF wheel itself, because even the G25 is far too slow to do like LFS wants it to do.

The only reason you might not feel this as extreme in real driving is the power steering, and probably a general lack of "sideways time", together with "OMG! What's happening? Letting go the wheel is the LAST thing I'd do now!" in the rare occasions you do go sideways. Also the setups used in LFS are often very different from the ones of a normal road going car.

Quote from jankes :

I don't understand a thing now, these are the words of Eric Tetz a few posts above and that's exactly what it looks like. Everyone keeps cristicize me but the guy said it was impossible...
I repeat, I DO BELIEVE CARS BEHAVE IN THIS MANNER even though I have not experienced it. LFS implementation is somewhat suspicious to me though.

You have read his post wrong. What he is saying is that unless you do something with your feet or hands then it will not recover.

To prove to you there is no perfect auto countersteer in LFS do the following...

Select the F08 as a car. At the start line make sure the wheel is straight then let go of it. Put the car in first and sit at redline. Now dump the clutch and floor the gas and hold it there. If you manage to stay in a straight line then please make a replay and post it here..

Not wanting to sound rude but how much real life driving experience do you have holding a car close and also over the edge of grip? When you drive do you ever "play" and push the car into slip angle?

While it might appear LFS is doing well with the countersteering you will actually be far faster if you control the counter steer. The real skill behind the wheel, real life and LFS, is knowing when to let the wheel "talk" and when you should have your "say".

If you could do a lap in one of the RWD cars to show how the LFS countersteer, the FZ50 would be perfect using the RACE_S setting. Then post the replay here so we can see what you mean.

Quote from jankes :

I repeat, I DO BELIEVE CARS BEHAVE IN THIS MANNER even though I have not experienced it. LFS implementation is somewhat suspicious to me though.

If you don't know what real life cars do (you BELIEVE this behaviour to be accurate, but you don't actually know) then how can you possibly know if LFS is correct. Seriosuly, post another video of what is 'wrong' and we'll quite happily disprove it (I say that because you are talking out of your ass on this one mate).

Ok I've done some extensive testing. I admit you're all right. Let this conversation conclude. LFS is accurate simulation and nothing is wrong with G25 FFB. The car will not recover itself when in race pace. I do have to do this by myself. Sorry for the frustration my insisting may have caused

Quote from jankes :

Ok I've done some extensive testing. I admit you're all right. Let this conversation conclude. LFS is accurate simulation and nothing is wrong with G25 FFB. The car will not recover itself when in race pace. I do have to do this by myself. Sorry for the frustration my insisting may have caused

We've all been clueless/silly before.

But we've all learnt from mistakes.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Well, from your description it could be a problem or that could be correct. Make sure you have disabled all the extra effects in the Logitech control panel.

Centre spring, spring effect and damper effect should all be at zero.

As i was not able to find a Answer on this from Jankes and just to make sure and point this out, do you actually use these Features? Because as far as i know, LFS do "emulate" this already so theres no need to turn em on in the Software as well. Correct me if im wrong.

On the contrary, Center Spring and Damper are driver generated effects and WILL (negatively) influence the FF LFS calculates. These MUST be turned OFF to get the FF as it is intended by LFS.

Scawen is not too sure what Spring Effect actually does - it doesn't noticeably change FF for me at all - but simply leave it at 0%, just to be sure.

Quote from jankes :

I have a problem with the new Logitech G25 wheel. It performs awsome apart from one big thing. The wheel keeps applying the opposite lock by itself and since I hate any artificial help in race simulators it drives me crazy. Does anyone know how to get rid of that annoyance? I use all effects settings on 100% both generic and LFS. I looks like LFS specific problem because with Richard Burns Rally it works ok. Thank you for any suggestions.

That effect sounds normal to me.

jankes, i had exactly same feeling when changed from mouse to wheel, it was like "steering help ON".
ok, i belive that real car would countersteer, but exactly like U i found LFS doing it "to perfect",
i can release wheel and FF will do job for me

Quote from AndroidXP :

On the contrary, Center Spring and Damper are driver generated effects and WILL (negatively) influence the FF LFS calculates. These MUST be turned OFF to get the FF as it is intended by LFS.

thx for that reply Android
i was really confused reading all these posts (here and on polish forum where i asked) telling that "its ok, FF in LFS is exactly as in real, Ur wrong etc..."

to bad my MS FF drivers dont have such options, i can only turn off FF to get "real" driving

p.s. sorry for my eng

Quote from gru :

jankes, i had exactly same feeling when changed from mouse to wheel, it was like "steering help ON".
ok, i belive that real car would countersteer, but exactly like U i found LFS doing it "to perfect",
i can release wheel and FF will do job for me



thx for that reply Android
i was really confused reading all these posts (here and on polish forum where i asked) telling that "its ok, FF in LFS is exactly as in real, Ur wrong etc..."

to bad my MS FF drivers dont have such options, i can only turn off FF to get "real" driving

p.s. sorry for my eng

Dzieki za slowa poparcia Chociaz jedna osoba... Aczkolwiek jesli jedziesz na maksa samochod sam nie skontruje.

Quote from jankes :

Dzieki za slowa poparcia Chociaz jedna osoba... Aczkolwiek jesli jedziesz na maksa samochod sam nie skontruje.

moze wrocmy na ang, malo kto tu rozumie po polsku

yes, it won't help when "pushing" to much, but in normal racing with small oversteer FF is doing my job more than good
i agree it may be helpfull, but i wish it could be turned on/off like with keyboard steer
since Microsoft has no drivers for XP im stuck (i have gameport version, built-in driver has calibration options only, no FF support)

Sorry, LFS doesn't allow to turn off realism.

ok i know FF is supposed to simulate real action, but i think i may not like way it does it, right?

Well, your only alternative is to turn off FF completely then.

Quote from jankes :

Ok I've done some extensive testing. I admit you're all right. Let this conversation conclude. LFS is accurate simulation and nothing is wrong with G25 FFB. The car will not recover itself when in race pace. I do have to do this by myself. Sorry for the frustration my insisting may have caused

No worries, sounded like a blond moment. We all get them