ive also noticed there is a lack of torque steer within GT4.. when taking off from the line or having one wheel on the dirt while under heavy acceleration, the car doesnt want to turn at all really..

lala's still on demo and still making these huge sweeping statements about LFS and its content? Will wonders never cease?
Once yet again, lala, do yourself a favour, get a license and educate yourself about LFS before you criticise it, especially when comparing it to what amounts to an arcade game. IMHO you simply cannot be taken seriously when all you have is 3 LFS cars and 1 track, especially when making in-depth comparisons like this. Comparing the S2 demo to GT4 is like comparing ONE Stanley Kubrick film to the full Adam Sandler catalogue - an exercise in futility

I think GT4 is the best game, if you want to play with your friend for fun, but it isnt the same category as LFS.

Quote from speel :

I think GT4 is the best game, if you want to play with your friend for fun

No, Mario Kart or Tennis would be the best game for that .

Quote from lalathegreat :

3.While LFs does have online, There arer't alot of people online For me living in New york whenever i get a chance to play i always check LFS world and see what S2 servers are doing. and it isnt alot. Most of the time is a few servers and more people playing the demo than the game it self. Right now There 13 servers on S2. There are 116 People playing the game and there more people playing the demo.

Ok, it's 4 pm here, there are 476 players online...42 populated S2 servers, wich is by average 11 people per server

I'll update this post at 1 am my local time

One is the real deal, the other is a pale, sad imitation.

One captures your imagination, the other makes you wonder "what's wrong with the world?"

One smells great, and the other smells like a chinese sweat shop.

Sorry. I thought the was the Real Christmas Tree vs Fake Christmas Tree thread.

Quote from Taavi(EST) :

Ok, it's 4 pm here, there are 476 players online...42 populated S2 servers, wich is by average 11 people per server

I'll update this post at 1 am my local time

Right now its 10:30Am here and there 530 people online and only 112 of them are on s2 418 are on the demo there about 40 servers as u said.

Quote from Tweaker :

??? Explain what is inconsistent, and why the engine simulation is horrible. If you think GT4 is any better, take a closer look.


Again. Realize this game is a "garage game" produced out of 3 developer's own homes. That is 3 people and with the help of its community/userbase that pay for the game knowing they will do better and better each and every "slow" update they have. As oppossed to a video game you go buy on a CD and are STUCK with that game for the rest of your Playstation's life, and really cannot have anything new for years to come. While we get more feedback and more "goods" in return from the game's own developers with just a few months of wait each time... sometimes weeks.


It's too bad you resort to judging the game mainly based on your demo time of play, when playing with S2 is an entirely different experience. Hell you are over in NY, when I am in California, and I haven't really had any complaints about the number of people playing online. Surely there aren't as many servers filled up as in earlier hours when people in Europe are playing, but there are users playing on the servers and you at least have a choice between 8 or so servers at the least. And coming online to play in the late afternoon and evening shouldn't be a problem for you actually, less people play online when I am online at around this time I post this reply. But I still go play, and have been doing it for almost 3 years now.


Coming up with your own track ideas is no walk in the park. Eric has done a great job with what he has done so far, and he has gone through so many other track ideas that never make it to the game, because he tries to get something that is quality work. I like making tracks myself personally, and wish I could make some of my own ideas for LFS, but we have to settle with what Eric makes for us, and we have enough to choose from to keep us busy until his next big update. Something that just keeps adding on to the game, and increasing its options.

Having a bundle of real cars and real tracks can be great in GT4, but it wont make much of a difference since these are objects in which make up the game's platform, and the driving is what really matters to call something a "simulation". One could argue on and on why GT4 has real cars/tracks, a nice photo mode, licensed music, car upgrades, a driving license system... etc --- while LFS has none of that. But that is all completely irrelevant to the whole debate here: "Which is a better driving simulation?". We are talking physics here, not why Game A is better than Game B because of its development plan or something. Yet if there are many other constructed comments against LFS or GT4, it all just seems too easy to make a point, or change someone's opinion (or not).


If you have more of your "I can beat down LFS" snacks in your lunch box, feel free to share, but there is nothing you could do to compare LFS's physics with GT4, their's is "subpar".

But I guess you wouldn't realize why we respect the unique little game called LFS when you haven't paid for it Keep spinning that hot little GT4 cd, just be sure and insert your memory card when you need to save your garage!

I don't think Gt4s [Engine Sim]is any better, but it dosent raise the bar so to speak. i would consider them on the same level.
@sam yea i my self rather see better tire than engine but the incosistency at times annoys me


Yes i know its 3 people making the game which still amazes me. but from a potencial customer stand point, its slow, am sure if i actually saw what there were doing or if they had updates on the lfs site on what there working on i would think otherwise. but i started playing LFS over a year ago(on and off) and i saw one major update that brought few things. granted the value of these few things were great i was somewhat disappointed.

Keeping in mind i havent driven the tracks, but watched ive seen coutless videos over which is where i am drawing my conclutions. Am i saying the tracks suck no, am saying they don't pop out as being something i havent seen before.
If the tracks are so good why does it seem that every drives Aston or the oval?

Ive already stated that Gt4 Physics arent as good as LFS, what am saying is GT4 is a sim but not as high of precision(meaning the amount of stuff simulated)

Regarding Tracks runned Online that always depends on what the majority wants and says nothing about the quality of the Tracks.

In NR03 there is a amazingly good Watkins Glen, Spa, Magny Cours, Suzuka or Indianapolis but what is runned online most of the Time? Talladega and Daytona. Because thats what the Majority wants, not because there better tracks

If you don't like LFS, what are you doing here then? Just to irritate people, some could say to troll? Don't get it really, if you don't like why even to bother...

Cant see "lalathegreat" saying anywhere that he doesnt like LFS

me either. i dont think people need to be so defensive over LFS.

tell him that I, Jack Biddulph have played LFS for 3 years and i am still not bored and that i got tired of GT4 after about 2 weeks

As metioned before (a few times): You can't really compare LFS and GT4, they are meant for different clients. One is for hardcore physics-freaks, and the other is for more normal people.
You can learn to handle GT4 rather quick, but it takes a while to get into LFS.
If you want to compare, compare GT4 to Forza/Race Driver/..., another game, which isn't purely sim, but sim-ish (i.e. you can spin cars, they kinda handle like you expect them to). And compare LFS to a pure sim, like netKar Pro.

The only thing the GT4-defendants should learn: GT4 was never meant to be a real sim. Just more sim than NFS/Ridge Racer/[insert console game], and IMHO they've done a good job balancing sim-elements and arcade elements in this game. I have fun playing it once in a while, and you can take nice screenshots

i just want good racing. gt4's AI are incredibly slow, and the physics were very dissapointing to me. i own every gran turismo game. I probably knew about gran turismo before 99% of the people over at gtplanet. but once i started driving and playing lfs, i just got bored with gran turismo 3 and stopped playing... then when gt4 came out i was very dissapointed.

Quote from herki :

As metioned before (a few times): You can't really compare LFS and GT4, they are meant for different clients. One is for hardcore physics-freaks, and the other is for more normal people.
You can learn to handle GT4 rather quick, but it takes a while to get into LFS.
If you want to compare, compare GT4 to Forza/Race Driver/..., another game, which isn't purely sim, but sim-ish (i.e. you can spin cars, they kinda handle like you expect them to). And compare LFS to a pure sim, like netKar Pro.

The only thing the GT4-defendants should learn: GT4 was never meant to be a real sim. Just more sim than NFS/Ridge Racer/[insert console game], and IMHO they've done a good job balancing sim-elements and arcade elements in this game. I have fun playing it once in a while, and you can take nice screenshots

that sorta of sums of what i was trying to convey. i only joined this thread because of the one sided aspect of it.
Everyone here was saying GT4 was bascially shit without really taking into considerations the many distinct differences between the games.
you can compare apples and oranges but in the end remember your dealing with two different fruits.

Cars flipping in GT4:


Again, Yes it happens
Ever crashed at the test course in a fast car? Ever gone off the grass hill at Trail Mountain coming out of the S curve?

Drifting

The game isn't made for drifting. Its not meant to be manipulated like that. other than that. i dont know much about drifting so most of you could probably out do me in a debate. i have been able to drift consistantly around Trail Mountain in a Skyline.

Damage

I agree this is by far GT4's worst quality. And i hate it to. The PS2 hardware can't handle that much. PS2 is what $150-$175. The PC i play LFS on costs about $1200.
Big Difference
The deformation damage in LFS is great. but no matter what in ANY game console or not there a only so many set effects for dammage. soon it becomes predictable. NASCAR, GTR, GTR2, Forza MS, LFS, all games have pre-set dammage effects.

AI

GT4 AI sucks. I agree. LFS' AI isn't that great either.
I could be on the outside of a car going into a corner (in either game) and the AI would swing to the Outside and smash me into the wall.

(the best AI i think is in the NASCAR series. ive been playing those since 98, i was 6 then. The AI in total team control was great, haven't played 07 yet)

The LFS AI is faster than GT4's.

Cars

Look at it from a consumer's POV.

GT4 has 500 cars, maybe 120 you might want to actualy drive but they are still there. The upgrading system in GT4 IS cumbersome. Rather annoying really.

LFS has say 20-30 cars idk for sure.

Without knowing that there are only currently 3 people working on LFS and that GT4 had 50 people working on the left headlight of a 68 Camaro.
Now GT4 costs like 20 bucks? and LFS cost 50 bucks (USD)

Stuff

Player Progression Timeline?
What is that. maybe i missed something
Tweaker, would you mind explaining that to me?

Tracks

Yes GT4 has alot of Real World tracks (not requiring as much work as fictional, maybe more rechecking) Infineon, Laguna SECA (or mazda raceway), Tushkibo (sp), Sarthe, Suzuiko, and all the Montiego ones. and more.

They also have fake ones. Seattle Circuit, Pairs, Deep Forest, Midfield,
and so on.

Rally
Yeah, nearly all rally racing is done on point to point circuits. Have you ever tried to pass at the Grand Canyon track without getting the 5sec 31mph penalty, its nearly impossible. Or even do a decent lap for that matter.

Tire Deformation

When i was talking about the tire deformation earlier
i was saying the the physics of it is great. its a great addition to racing sims. What i meant was it can be done without having the actual tire move. in most replays, its hardly noticable.

Tires in GT4 arent so great. I've noticed that sometimes it doesn't even look like the tires are touching the ground. they may very well not be. IDK, havent looked at the code on the disk. the only real noticable thing is camber, toe, and ummmm the one that adjust the angle of the suspension. The shadows dont seem to be wrong.

Im not saying you're wrong, i want to know how u know. an axis in the center doesn't mean its any better or worse. i really don't think that LFS is based off where the front tires are pointing. what if u load the car up with (i do belive its toe i cant remember at the time) the wheel isn't gonna match the direction of the car. Look at the BF1 going around a tight corner the outside tire foints more twords the inside of the corner than the inside one.


All in all they are all both great racing SIMS. They ARE meant for different clients. GT4 is meant for gearheads who live for maticulosly (sp) tuning gear ratios and so on, who dont want to spend $2000 on a computer, wheel, game for LFS. Aside for $400 for a PS2, Wheel, and Game.
People with PCs like that want that kind of game. As said many times Its like Comparing Apples and Oranges. Both at the top of their respected classes. You wont find a better SIM for PS2 Guranteed. As for the PC idk. I got into the PC gaming loop about 4 months ago. I've been with playstaion since "The Grey Lunch Box" as someone said. BTW whoever said that is a genius. GT4 is more based on Tuning and endless options. The Physics engine in GT4 is incomporable to anything that has come before it. On the PS2 anyway. The physics engine in LFS is excellent. Well done. More power to the 3 "Geeks" in their garages. They did an excellent job for their sources. GT4 has qualities that LFS does not. GT4 has hardware limitations the LFS does not (to some extent). LFS has qualities that GT4 does not. LFS has Developer limitations that GT4 DOES NOT.

Apples and Oranges
Tuning and Extreme Physics
Car Porn and Deformation

They arent Side by Side compareable.

It just doesn't work

BTW If u want screen shots of me doing these things i will try my best to capture them for you

Quote from Jeff_117 :

i really don't think that LFS is based off where the front tires are pointing. what if you load the car up with (i do believe its toe i cant remember at the time) the wheel isn't gonna match the direction of the car. Look at the BF1 going around a tight corner the outside tire points more towards the inside of the corner than the inside one.

Just to clarify that, LFS basically takes four wheels, bolts them to a suspension, engine and car body and looks what happens. There is no specialised code for "you steer 10% left, lets calculate how much you can turn". Steering does only rotate the front tyres, the rest is worked out by the tyre simulation.

And the effect you were talking about is just excessive toe-in, what does that have to do with the physics engine? I hope you are aware that in real life the wheels almost never exactly point in the direction of travel - it's mostly a bit of toe-in to provide high speed stability.

Quote from Jeff_117 :

Cars flipping in GT4:


Again, Yes it happens
Ever crashed at the test course in a fast car? Ever gone off the grass hill at Trail Mountain coming out of the S curve?

they don't really flip, they only turn to a certain degree (I think 45°). Flipping involves upside-down action, and the GT engine can't handle it.

Quote from Jeff_117 :

Drifting

The game isn't made for drifting. Its not meant to be manipulated like that. other than that. i dont know much about drifting so most of you could probably out do me in a debate. i have been able to drift consistantly around Trail Mountain in a Skyline.

Drifting doesn't work well because of the lack of refinement of the tyre-physics, so you're basically right, I'm just explaining why.

Quote from Jeff_117 :

Damage

I agree this is by far GT4's worst quality. And i hate it to. The PS2 hardware can't handle that much. PS2 is what $150-$175. The PC i play LFS on costs about $1200.
Big Difference
The deformation damage in LFS is great. but no matter what in ANY game console or not there a only so many set effects for dammage. soon it becomes predictable. NASCAR, GTR, GTR2, Forza MS, LFS, all games have pre-set dammage effects.

First off all: LFS doesn't have pre-set damage, it's real-time calculated with a few restrictions (e.g. that most of the driver stays inside the car)
Secondly: the PS2 could handle damage, but a lot of the manufacturers featured in GT don't want to see their cars damaged, so that would be the reason why there isn't damage in GT

Quote from Jeff_117 :

Cars

Look at it from a consumer's POV.

GT4 has 500 cars, maybe 120 you might want to actualy drive but they are still there. The upgrading system in GT4 IS cumbersome. Rather annoying really.

LFS has say 20-30 cars idk for sure.

Without knowing that there are only currently 3 people working on LFS and that GT4 had 50 people working on the left headlight of a 68 Camaro.
Now GT4 costs like 20 bucks? and LFS cost 50 bucks (USD)

~20 cars, 18 or 19 I think.
But GT is car-wise masses instead of classes.
If you want to compete in LFS, you need refined setups, while the battles in GT are usally decided by the car, not the setup

Quote from Jeff_117 :

Tracks

Yes GT4 has alot of Real World tracks (not requiring as much work as fictional, maybe more rechecking) Infineon, Laguna SECA (or mazda raceway), Tushkibo (sp), Sarthe, Suzuiko, and all the Montiego ones. and more.

They also have fake ones. Seattle Circuit, Pairs, Deep Forest, Midfield,
and so on.

Rally
Yeah, nearly all rally racing is done on point to point circuits. Have you ever tried to pass at the Grand Canyon track without getting the 5sec 31mph penalty, its nearly impossible. Or even do a decent lap for that matter.

GT cleatly beats LFS trackwise.
But IMHO LFS shouldn't have as many tracks, because it's mainly meant to be played online - and what happens if you have to much stuff in an online game? look at rfactor...

Quote from Jeff_117 :

Tire Deformation

When i was talking about the tire deformation earlier
i was saying the the physics of it is great. its a great addition to racing sims. What i meant was it can be done without having the actual tire move. in most replays, its hardly noticable.

Tires in GT4 arent so great. I've noticed that sometimes it doesn't even look like the tires are touching the ground. they may very well not be. IDK, havent looked at the code on the disk. the only real noticable thing is camber, toe, and ummmm the one that adjust the angle of the suspension. The shadows dont seem to be wrong.

the tyres of GT are very basic ones, and as you found out right, in most of the cases deformation doesn't really matter. But that's more an optical issue and developers being lazy

---

I don't intend to reheat any battle here, I only wanted to correct/comment on your statement

Quote from Jeff_117 :

I've been with playstaion since "The Grey Lunch Box" as someone said. BTW whoever said that is a genius...

That was me, thanks Incidentally "Grey Lunchbox" is also what I called the legendary Super Nintendo (F-Zero rules!).

If you can post a screen of a GT car flipping, I'll give you a gold star

As for the price thing: GT4 may be 20 bucks now but when it was released it was, like all new console titles, stupidly expensive - something like 80-100 bucks or whatever (I only ever rented it though I might by it now it's so cheap). It's 20 bucks now because it's old and nothing more can be offered for it. It was 100 bucks new because Polyphony had to pay all the hundreds or thousands of people on the dev team, as well as publicity, legals, licensing, distribution, advertising etc. It's cheap now because it's been out long enough for Polyphony to sell enough units to make a decent profit.
Same with the consoles themselves btw: the PS1 was over $500 when it was new. When I bought mine it was $187 and the games I bought with it were all old(ish) enough to be reduced in price. I always pity the poor fools who line up all night for the latest console. Wait a year, get a hobby, save some cash!

LFS, however, is a work in progress and will continue to improve. Sure, you pay your $50 (which is still cheaper than almost any new PC or console game) but then that entitles you to constant updates and improvements in all areas of the game from physics, AI, graphics, sound, everything. You also get good bang for your buck in terms of developer contact. Scawen's in pretty regular contact with us here and that makes us feel well looked after, especially when compared to some other indie devs' behaviour. This is part of the reason people spend so much on computers: the "improvability" of PC games and the community aspect that go with a lot of them. You buy a console game and that's it - it can't get any better. No patches, no addons (unless you pay more cash for an expansion pack or something) $50 or 24 quid isn't that much when you think about it, especially when you compare it to a PC release from a large studio.

I think you're right about comparing these two games though. If the playing field was level, i.e. if both games were either on console or PC a proper comparison would be possible. Since they aren't, we can really only compare them on a subjective surface level, i.e. how they feel to play. Even if I had a wheel to play GT4 with (I've yet to see a console game that warrants me getting a console-compatible wheel btw) I still have this feeling that I'd be unstatisfied. GPL and LFS have set the bar rather high

Quote :

Also, the cars in console games like Forza or Gran Turismo do turn around not by the direction of the front wheels, but by the middle height axis of the car.

There is no tyre on the road simulation, after you have steered the corner to the car, the car turns around the corner by the Axes of its height, not by the direction of the front wheels.

When i was talking about the front tire angles i was refering to that quote. my info was based off of that. im not a genius. im 14.

i dont know where the GT4 costs $100. Darn, i only paid 50, the day after it came out in the US

I really don't think that the PS2 could handle dammage in addition to what GT4 currently offers. ive had slowdowns on it already.

I like the comparison to rfactor, i find that very amusing.

Im working on that gold star buddy

I'm no expert but i belive that it still belive that they are pre-set to some extent.

Someone refered to the Escudo in GT3 getting to to go i think it was 450mph. I've gone over 1,000mph in the toyota GT1

Another great example of GT's great physics engine

BTW how do u upload photos, if i can in fact get a car to flip.

Quote from Jeff_117 :

Drifting

The game isn't made for drifting. Its not meant to be manipulated like that. other than that. i dont know much about drifting so most of you could probably out do me in a debate. i have been able to drift consistantly around Trail Mountain in a Skyline.

lfs wasnt built for drifting either but still its the single best drifting simulator out there simply because the physics are correct
you can drift every rwd car to some extend in what i like to refer as the real world ... so undriftable cars are a proof of bad physics over the limit and as such also bad physics for racing where you often need to catch a slide (impending slide if youre good)
although ive been told and figured myself that a large part of the undriftability of gt4 lies in the absence of any diff lock

Quote :

AI

GT4 AI sucks. I agree. LFS' AI isn't that great either.
I could be on the outside of a car going into a corner (in either game) and the AI would swing to the Outside and smash me into the wall.

fully agreed but at least you can race with people from all over the globe in lfs ... some of which arent much better than the ai tbh

Quote :

an axis in the center doesn't mean its any better or worse.

yes it does any serious sim wont move the car around a predifened axis but move a rigid body (with resonable accuracy its rigid) which is the car according to the tyre and suspension forces

Quote :

You wont find a better SIM for PS2 Guranteed.

enthusia

Quote from Hankstar :

That was me, thanks Incidentally "Grey Lunchbox" is also what I called the legendary Super Nintendo (F-Zero rules!).

the name dates back all the way to the c64 (at least in german)
which was a lot better than any console ever built but thats a different matter

Quote :

I've yet to see a console game that warrants me getting a console-compatible wheel btw

with most here using a dfp or g25 chances are you already got one

GT4 does have differentials.
1 way, 1.5 way 2 way, 3 way

I'm making asumptions on the axis deal as i am not game programer or a physics genius

I've never even heard of enthusia

i feel that the only reason that people take so much pride in LFS physics and why they say they are so great, is because the cars aren't real. I dont know how certain cars react in certain situations. im sure many of other LFS players dont either.

LFS physics feel great. good job garage geeks

Quote from Jeff_117 :

I've never even heard of enthusia

to my knowledge its the closest thing to a sim youll find on the ps

Quote :

i feel that the only reason that people take so much pride in LFS physics and why they say they are so great, is because the cars aren't real. I dont know how certain cars react in certain situations. im sure many of other LFS players dont either.

if you know certain characteristics of a car like drivetrain weight distibution mass (basic stuff really) you can make some assumptions on how it will handle ... and lfs gets most of them right
plus it will handle like a real car with the same specs
lfs is also sort of a wysiwyg sim in the way that just about any pyhsics parameter is user observable in real time so just by looking at it and some of its data readouts you can tell its right or at the least closer than most other sims

Quote from Shotglass :

(referring to "Grey Lunchbox") the name dates back all the way to the c64 (at least in german)
which was a lot better than any console ever built but thats a different matter

No doubt, the C64 ruled and ruled mightily!

I never had a grey one though, I had a proper brown one - the "Fudge Box" '80s design at its best :up: