Mkay,

As anyone who claims to enjoys physics is aware, Centrifugal Force is a ficitious "force", really only describing typical accelerative forces; perhaps a sudden lack of centripetal force. Simple inertia stuff right?

So I was momentarily disturbed to note the following:
With the washing machine on "spin cycle", I can open the lid and be free to observe my rapidly rotating garments. However, if an object is inserted into the revolving drum near the centre / top, as it falls into the drum it quite rapidly moves to the outside, although the only thing it touches on the way down is air... So is the motion of the air (IE being disturbed and directed by my dizzy garments etc) responsible for this seeming contradiction?

Discuss....

Well the air will be rotating in the drum, I'm not convinced that would be solely response for clothing to move off the accepted course in the manner you describe.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Well the air will be rotating in the drum, I'm not convinced that would be solely response for clothing to move off the accepted course in the manner you describe.

This is my dilemma. I didn't try it with something as heavy & large as clothes, but the fact still remains....

hmmm.... I hope I understood what you said...

Yes, there really is no centrifugal force. It is just that body wants to continue to it's original path as long as there are no forces altering its path.

So in a washing machine the drum wall introduces a force (e.g to jeans etc) towards the drum center. Otherwise the cloths would continue in tangent direction out of your washing machine. The cloths at first move tangentually until they meet the wall and after that they start rotating with the drum. The air moves together with the cloths, but maybe with slightly slower speed (especially if empty). That's because the lumps of cloths and the 'paddles' (or what they are called) in the drum causes the air spin too (like try moving a post card fast, which moves air).

If you drop something into the drum it meets first the air rotating and finally the drum itself. In both case it first goes to the wall and then start to rotate around. If it is light (like a feather) the air flow might be enough to move it before it meets the drum itself.

That's how I understand it.

The odd thing in this is that all washing machines I've seen have a vertically mounted drum, so if nothing else at least the gravity will work the cloths towards the drum wall (downwards).

Quote from Aquilifer :

Yes, there really is no centrifugal force. It is just that body wants to continue to it's original path as long as there are no forces altering its path....(generally accepted explanation)

Indeed!

Quote :

If you drop something into the drum it meets first the air rotating and finally the drum itself. In both case it first goes to the wall and then start to rotate around. If it is light (like a feather) the air flow might be enough to move it before it meets the drum itself.

This is what I assumed had to be happening after a pondering what I saw for a few seconds...

Quote :

The odd thing in this is that all washing machines I've seen have a vertically mounted drum, so if nothing else at least the gravity will work the cloths towards the drum wall (downwards).

LOL, 99% over here are the other way IE the spindle runs up and down.

BBT, You've hit the jackpot... You've just discovered why it never rains on an oval while cars are at race-speed.

It's 3 things...
Centrifugal force, air movement, and air pressure that's pushing everything inside the vortex to the outside (hence it never rains on ovals, air pressure and air movement pushes it to the outside, much like the eye of a hurricane)

Centrifugal force can not be observed from the resting observer.
So standing outside of the washing machine you can not see the effects that the imaginary centrifugal force has.

Centrifugal force is what we imagin as the cause of acceleration caused by the oberserver accelerating. So if you sit in a car and drive around a corner you are being accelerated sideways. And all kinds of objects in the car move to the outside of the corner, relative to you. As an observer you conclude that there must have been a force pointing towards the outside of the corner. This imaginary force is caused by you, the observer, being accelerated. If you had been standing outside of the car you would have seen all objects but the driver reacting according to their inertia. You wouldn't have seen any strange acceleration and you wouldn't have needed to conclude a centrifugal force.
Standing beside the washing machine we can demand that you are not being accelerated (actually you are, as a part of the rotating earth). Thus the object in the washing machine can not appear to be moved by centrifugal force.
The forces that cause the object in the washing machine to move to the outside are caused by wind resistance. And a neglectable component of air pressure. I don't think your washing machine spins up that much.

Vain

Now, BBT, I know you are dying to get to the bottom of the centrifugal force thing... But THIS isn't the right way...

(God puts some strange people on the face of this earth)

Edit: removed wrong smiley and replaced it with no smiley

Quote from Vain :

The forces that cause the object in the washing machine to move to the outside are caused by wind resistance. And a neglectable component of air pressure. Vain

I inferred this much; but all I can imagine is air rotating causing the effect. Could you explain those two components in some more detail?

And thanks for the really concise description of the perception of centrifugal force.

Quote from TagForce :

(God puts some strange people on the face of this earth)

Yikes.
I have no patience for people that mess with kids. I would have no problem sentencing that idiot to death by dryer illepall

As soon as you don't place a symmetrical object with it's axis of symmetry in the position of the axis of rotation of the drum and the contained air, there will be a component of the wind resistance force that does not only rotate the object, but also moves it's CoG.
So as long as we don't have theorical scientific parameters the object will not be able to maintain it's position in the center. If the object's CoG isn't in the center there needs to be centripetal force pointing towards the center to maintain it's distance to the axis of rotation of the drum. But the forces caused by wind resistance are orthogonal to the radius of the drum (because the air circulates together with the drum). The wind resistance thus accelerates the object orthogonally to the radius of the drum.
The important note is that the forces by wind resistance aren't pointed towards the center. If there is no such force then there isn't a centripetal force to make the object move in a perfect circle (e.g. to maintain it's distance to the rotation axis/center of the drum). Thus it's inertia forces the object to the outside (or rather, there is no force that corrects it trajectory to stay near the center), in a spiral movement, due to the direction of the forces of wind resistance.

If I wouldn't be sitting at my laptop I'd draw an image - touchpads suck.

Oh, and about air pressure:
The friction between the drum with the clothes and the air in the drum causes the air to be accelerated orthogonally to the radius of the drum. Again, there is no centripetal force and thus the air's inertia forces it to move away from the center of rotation of the drum. If the air in the drum travels to the outside, through the clothes to the outside of the drum then there's air missing in the center. Thus the pressure in the center of the drum is lower, which causes air from above (if the drum's axis of rotation is vertical) to be sucked it.
It's basically the principle of a turbocharger's impeller. Friction causes air to move spirally to the outside, which is an increase in kinetical energy which can be used to pressurize the air. Due to the air moving to the outside new air is being sucked in at the center.

Vain

Quote from Vain :

... beauteous text ...

If I wouldn't be sitting at my laptop I'd draw an image - touchpads suck.

No need, I understand 100%. That's a perfect explanation again; thank you!

Actually, when water droplets enter the drum, you can see them pushed in the direction of rotation a little bit as well as being thrown to the outside, so your explanation is plainly visible with the right materials.

Quote from Vain :

Oh, and about air pressure:
...It's basically the principle of a turbocharger's impeller.

Hehe, I said the exact same thing when I started to read what you said there (duh) :doh: For a fan of turbochargers (hence the name) I could've thought that one through :rolleyes:

Thanks again!!!

I have one alternative explanation...

Fast rotating black holes cause 'frame dragging'. This means that a BH cause the timespace (4D space) around it to curve or rotate around it with the spin of the BH. This has interesting effects. Like everything which gets too close is forced to spin around the hole in one direction (with the spin). Other paths are not possibe like against the spin. This holds also for the light. This is not same as the event horizon. The stuff rotating are still outside the event horizon but cannot get out. So spinning BHs have a bigger black disk than what the event horizon is.

Your washing machine with a fast rotating drum must be doing this frame dragging too. Clothes are forced to rotate around in the drum without a way out. The black hole similarity explains also why you loose socks sometimes.

(oh jeezus... have to go get a cup of tea. I'm clearly over stressed :schwitz

LMAO

It's been awhile since I've looked into even General Relativity so I can't really prove you wrong

However it does explain the socks, and why they disappear without actually "moving" through spacetime...

I suspect I'll find those socks in a parallel washing machine somewhere.....

Well, according to Heisenberg's law the washing machine should constantly generate socks and anti-socks at the border of it's event-horizon.
(Because the energy at the border can't be zero, thus particles and anti-particles constantly recombinate and come into existance, and if you are lucky the anti-sock falls beyond the event horizon, while the sock emerges from the washing machine.)
I feel an experiment coming on!

Vain

Quote from Vain :

Well, according to Heisenberg's law the washing machine should constantly generate socks and anti-socks at the border of it's event-horizon.
(Because the energy at the border can't be zero, thus particles and anti-particles constantly recombinate and come into existance, and if you are lucky the anti-sock falls beyond the event horizon, while the sock emerges from the washing machine.)
I feel an experiment coming on!

Vain

Or it could as well be the anti-socks which survive. You'll notice only when it evaporizes when you put it in your foot (which will suffer some damage too).

If it happens that only one of the real/anti object parts fall into the blac... err... washing machine, then from the conservation of energy the black hole or your washing machine must loose part of it's mass. This is the Hawking radiation which can be observed as washing machine generated heat. That also explains why my washing machine sounds sometimes like a hungry T-Rex

What is odd that I have never seen it generating socks or especially anti-sock, only loosing ones. And then only one side of the pair.